I do think Exar is being a little overrated. I doubt Vodo is as powerful as Yoda.
About Exar beating Vodo in ten seconds, was it really that short? I don't have that comic, but that seems a little on the low side. Yoda, Dooku and Mace, all at one time, I think could take him. I may be underrating him though.
First off, Exar Kun's battle armor had a cortosis weave.
Second, Vodo was the -only- grandmaster of lightsaber fighting in hsi era or any other, really. You don't get a title that exclusive for sucking.
Third, Vodo was ancient himself.
Fourth, if Vodo can't defend himself with a stick against Exar Kun's onslaught (and this was in one page for the comic, five panels) he wouldn't do much better with a lightsaber.
Fifth, Exar Kun is not being overrated; you just like contesting the popular opinion all the damn time.
Sixth, he was able to do this while maintaining the Force power and concentration neccessary to freeze the entire senate and the jedi!
Wtf more do you need?
Woaaaaaah...people...please...
I think some people are really overrating Kun and hey - this comes from me - the Kun fanboy.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
First off, Exar Kun's battle armor had a cortosis weave.
Yes. He had cortosis weave on his battle armor but that thing isn't protecting his entire body and it wouldn't protect him from getting beheaded, losing his hands or getting his lightsaber destroyed. As far as I got it that thing was only protecting his upper body.
Second, Vodo was the -only- grandmaster of lightsaber fighting in hsi era or any other, really. You don't get a title that exclusive for sucking.
Erm...
Considering every information we have about lightsaber duellists of the Jedi Yoda is still on top of the ranks followed by Mace (who was simply naturaly gifted when it comes to lightsaber fighting - hell...he invented his own style being 13 years old and that invention required deep inside in form VI, V and VII. He would have kicked most Jedi in lightsaber combats being a Padawan himself) and Dooku.
And in the situation Kun killed Vodo, Vodo was using a walking stick. Therefore he had no chance to attack Kun because you won't be able to hurt somebody wearing cortosis weave with your walking stick and he used some part of his force powers to make that stick able to withstand lightsaber hits. So he:
a) wasn't able to use his entire fighting skills because his weapon limited him.
b) wasn't able to use all of his force powers
This in a situation where he had to resist Kun's Sith magic somehow (I guess it's save to assume that this also needed some force powers). Does that make Kun the uber duellist ? To create a similar situation: Imagine Yoda holding his cane in the one hand, deflecting Sith lightning thrown at him with the other and than have Sidious (who is using Sith lightning with one hand) cut him down with his lightsaber (wielded with the other hand). Would that make Sidious an uber lightsaber duellist ?
My point is that you can't really say that the situation Kun killed Vodo in was "fair" - in fact Kun had some huge advantages on his side. And did I miss the "that fight took 10 seconds" sign in the comic or where does that come from ?
Third, Vodo was ancient himself.
Yes. Vodo was "ancient". But he had not reached Yoda's age (and experience).
Fourth, if Vodo can't defend himself with a stick against Exar Kun's onslaught (and this was in one page for the comic, five panels) he wouldn't do much better with a lightsaber.
See above. I guess he would have done much better in a "fair" situation and having his lightsaber.
Fifth, Exar Kun is not being overrated; you just like contesting the popular opinion all the damn time.
I hope that doesn't count for me too...
Sixth, he was able to do this while maintaining the Force power and concentration neccessary to freeze the entire senate and the jedi!
He used spellcasting to do that. I doubt that he had to use any concentration to keep that spell up. That would pretty much contradict the entire idea behind "spellcasting".
Wtf more do you need?
To believe that Kun would be able to take Yoda and Mace (and Dooku) at once ? I would like to know where Kun had developed his lightsaber skills after the duel with Ulic since he had nobody on his level to spare with and nobody to fight...
And yes...he could use Sith magic against the opponents but what makes you think that Yoda and Mace (and Dooku) won't be able to resist it when Vodo was able to do that ?
People might call me a Yoda fanboy for that following stuff (just like in the "Yoda vs Revan" - thread) but I think that Kun would have a pretty hard time with Yoda alone. Throwing in Mace will most likely make him lose and adding Dooku is pretty much overkill.
And this because of a single fact: The Clone Wars cartoons. I know the might be quite stupid but at least they are all approved by Lucas - and if Lucas likes the idea that Mace can waste entire armies of combat droids on his own (using sheer force power) with Dooku being equally powerful and Yoda being even more powerful - then it must be Lucas own idea that the PT Jedi might be compareable to the ancient Sith Lords (in terms of combat abilities not thinking of the "blowing up planets"-stuff). And having this in mind it's quite hard to believe that Kun would survive that fight.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
Fifth, Exar Kun is not being overrated; you just like contesting the popular opinion all the damn time.
Nai already covered all the other points, so I defend myself here.
What is the popular opinion? Is it what YOU want it to be? Why do you always have to take a stab at me? Sometimes you sometimes stab in retaliation, but often you attack first. It seems to me that I am contesting the popular opinion when we are on opposing sides of the debate.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Nai already covered all the other points, so I defend myself here.What is the popular opinion? Is it what YOU want it to be? Why do you always have to take a stab at me? Sometimes you sometimes stab in retaliation, but often you attack first. It seems to me that I am contesting the popular opinion when we are on opposing sides of the debate.
First, Nai is bias in favor of Yoda. While he did bring up some good points, I'm not about to drop anything and listen to him. I like Nai, he can put forward good stuff, but his adherence to Yoda being the best duellist of all time is starting to trickle into everything he says about the guy. He says in one breath that ancient Sith lords would play tennis with Mace's head without weapons, but that Yoda could take on Kun and Ragnos, despite the fact that Yoda didn't take out Sidious that easily, and Sidious is a ***** compared to the others.
Second, popular opinion I was refering to is this: Kun > Yoda or Mace by far.
Nai and you are the only ones arguing otherwise, and he's the only one to put up a truly cohesive argument. I think he's exaggerating Yoda entirely too much, but hey... whatever.
You, however, have had an attitude and go out of your way to pick at anything and everything I say in a debate, because you're either trying to make a name for yourself or you're trying to garner attention. Before you went to debate class, you weren't nearly this combative and nitpicky, and I liked you a hell of a lot better then. But now you're just a pain in the ass who rides in on everyone else's coattails (Such as Nai here) -or- you get a few non-heavies (read: people who usually don't form cohesive, long arguments for every other post) and take the opposing side to damn near evrything I take. I notice that if you don't have support in numbers, you won't venture a peep. And when someone like Nai disagrees with me, you're right in there, poking your little head in.
In short, you are being a little attention whore and pain in the ass. Please stop. Thanks.
Yes. He had cortosis weave on his battle armor but that thing isn't protecting his entire body and it wouldn't protect him from getting beheaded, losing his hands or getting his lightsaber destroyed. As far as I got it that thing was only protecting his upper body.
Yeah, that's what having a double bladed lightsaber wielded at extreme speed and force powers the dwarf the other three do. His cortosis protects his torso, and his saber does the rest, like any sensible Jedi/Sith.
And in the situation Kun killed Vodo, Vodo was using a walking stick. Therefore he had no chance to attack Kun because you won't be able to hurt somebody wearing cortosis weave with your walking stick and he used some part of his force powers to make that stick able to withstand lightsaber hits. So he:a) wasn't able to use his entire fighting skills because his weapon limited him.
b) wasn't able to use all of his force powers
That doesn't mean he dies in 10 seconds either? The Jedi couldn't even defend himself against Kun, he just got slaughtered. Anything that lasts that short of a time indicates he would have been simply overpowered, lightsaber or not.
This in a situation where he had to resist Kun's Sith magic somehow (I guess it's save to assume that this also needed some force powers). Does that make Kun the uber duellist ? To create a similar situation: Imagine Yoda holding his cane in the one hand, deflecting Sith lightning thrown at him with the other and than have Sidious (who is using Sith lightning with one hand) cut him down with his lightsaber (wielded with the other hand). Would that make Sidious an uber lightsaber duellist ?
Substantiate that he had to use force powers/concentration to do it. In the comics, it didn't particularly look like he was doing that badly.
Yes. Vodo was "ancient". But he had not reached Yoda's age (and experience).
Age? Yes. Experience? Debatable.
He used spellcasting to do that. I doubt that he had to use any concentration to keep that spell up. That would pretty much contradict the entire idea behind "spellcasting".
That's another thing I'd like you to substantiate.
How is that Vodo "needed concentration" to break out of Kun's spell, but Kun didn't need concentration to hold the entire Senate and dozens of Jedi at least?
To believe that Kun would be able to take Yoda and Mace (and Dooku) at once ? I would like to know where Kun had developed his lightsaber skills after the duel with Ulic since he had nobody on his level to spare with and nobody to fight...[/qutoe]You said it yourself, no one was on Kun's level. That alone bodes well for him. In that same whim, if you believe Yoda was so great, who was there to push his limits? Mace? That would at least imply Mace's level was comparable. You've reached a non sequitur, considering you said Yoda was better.
So to just clarify, be consistent with your logic, don't say Kun was hampered because he had no one to spar with, but Yoda wasn't.
[quote]People might call me a Yoda fanboy for that following stuff (just like in the "Yoda vs Revan" - thread) but I think that Kun would have a pretty hard time with Yoda alone. Throwing in Mace will most likely make him lose and adding Dooku is pretty much overkill.
Substantiate? He slashed up a guy of similar style as him, so why would Yoda be any harder to hit for Kun?
And this because of a single fact: The Clone Wars cartoons. I know the might be quite stupid but at least they are all approved by Lucas - and if Lucas likes the idea that Mace can waste entire armies of combat droids on his own (using sheer force power) with Dooku being equally powerful and Yoda being even more powerful - then it must be Lucas own idea that the PT Jedi might be compareable to the ancient Sith Lords (in terms of combat abilities not thinking of the "blowing up planets"-stuff). And having this in mind it's quite hard to believe that Kun would survive that fight.
But you have nothing to juxtapose the "cartoon" feats to the more Ancient Jedi/Sith. A few frames in a cartoon doesn't quite correlate with a live action cartoon. Until you can juxtapose it by contrast, you can't make an inference that they are greater.
Simply put, can you substantiate?
Originally posted by Deus Ex
I totally disagree, Akbar.For one thing, Kun's lightsaber skills are merely one facet of his powers. His Force powers in general were considerable. If he fought soley using the lightsaber he has a good chance to win this. If he throws in some Sith magics, the trio is cleaned up. They do not have the ability to stand up to a Sith lord of this magnitude.
3 of the best jedi/sith in PT surround Exar and attack him, he cleans them up? ok.... 😮