I'd like to see somebody parry strikes coming from three different directions at the same time with a single lightsaber...
By that logic, Dooku couldn't block two lightsabers from two different directions and he would have died. But he didn't. Why? Because there never was a time when he was forced to make an impossible parry, his superior lightsaber prowess and force powers were able to manhandle his opponents.
Sorry Illustrious...what kind of logic is that ? Of course he would last longer having a decent weapon and being able to use all of his powers. If I hand you a stick and make you juggle balls with one hand and than attack you with a Katana you will die faster compared to having a Katana yourself and not juggle that balls.
But what proof does he have that he needed to do anything that would require as much concentration as juggling balls?
Besides, if you give me a stick that could resist a katana blow and our skills were similar, I could easily survive just as long as I can with a katana. In fact, I wouldn't need to worry about attacking, and I can slip into a defensive form.
You make it seem like I have no swordplay experience. Outside of fencing, we spar with wooden weapons, does that mean I am less effective at parrying? Hell no.
In fact, it seems like your logic isn't all there either, Nai.
To do what ? Make his walking stick able to parry a lightsaber ? A lightsaber cuts through everything except a few metal materials. Jedi don't have "Sith alchemy" - so either he had to use force powers to make it happen or he had a cortosis walking stick which I would doubt...
Not even mentioning the fact that it is told he augmented the staffs strength using the force...
You still didn't prove that he needed great concentration to strengthen his walking stick.
If he were rendered ineffective simply because he has to strengthen his walking stick, he probably would have carried a lightsaber. And as we see earlier in that same comic series, Vodo isn't too shabby with a walking stick, he was able to stalemate Kun once.
It is debatable that a 900 year old being has more experience than a 600 year old being ? Not even mentioning the fact that the 900 year old being had experience in frontline combat and face some of the best lightsaber duellists in his era where the 600 year old being did not ?
Are you reading EU I haven't even heard of? We know almost nothing about Yoda prior to him being 800 years old, just like we know very little about Vodo. For the most part, you agree with everyone else in saying the older Jedi with their battlefield experience were superior to the newer Jedi, but with Yoda, it seems to be the exception. That's called character bias.
As I said: Spellcasting is spellcasting. You have to focus on a spell while casting it and not after you did it. And please - how powerful do you think Kun is ? The most powerful Jedi had problems lifting heavy stuff yet Kun should be able to freeze thousands or ten-thousands of beings including other force users and keep them under control using his mind while "toying" around with the best lightsaber duellist of that era. And I should substantiate something ?
Yes, you have to substantiate, because you made the claim that Vodo had to expend energy and concetration, but Kun did not. When you make a claim, you have to back it up. I saw NO EVIDENCE to suggest that Vodo was hampered in that fight whereas Kun was not. If you did, post the evidence.
Suddenly, you think you're an expert on Sith spellcasting, I must have missed the comic where a certain "Nai Fohl" learned how to freeze the senate and learned all the dynamics about it. Simply put, saying Kun did not need concentration while Vodo did is an unfounded assumption.
Kun needed concentration while casting the spell but not after it. Imagine it like that: You are casting a spell that - once casted - will create an energy field that will freeze anybody who gets in it's range (yourself excepted). Now when you finished casting that field is there and you don't have to care about it any longer but anybody who enteres the field has to resist it or use concentration to break out of the spell.
Hardly true.
Many books have spells wear off after the caster is defeated. Why? Because the spell required the constant magical energy of the caster. In fact, it's not even common logic to believe Kun's spell would follow your above statement, NOR is it said otherwise. Hence, you need to substantiate.
Oh please. How many time did pass between Kun's and Ulic's duel and the time Kun was defeated. A year ? Yoda had 875 years (so about 35 generations of Jedi Knights to spare with) to develop his lightsaber skills where Kun had MUCH lesser time and only one decent opponent for lightsaber combat (Ulic).How much do you think somebody who only has one opponent and some years (at best) of time can develop his fighting skills compared to somebody having 9 centuries of time and serveral thousands of different opponents to choose from ?
So the amount of time that passed is the end all of all debates? So an individual like Luke could not have possibly defeated Vader because Vader had more experience. So Revan could not have defeated Kavar, because Kavar was older and had more experience.
Stop bending rules around for Yoda. I know you love the character, but stop making him out to be a force/lightsaber god when he isn't.
How is it that Exar only had 1 opponent? He could pick a Massassi, any Massassi, and spar with it. He killed many Jedi in ACTUAL COMBAT, doesn't that count?
The fact you twist it around parameters by saying Exar only has 1 sparring partner [who is in his league] while Yoda has hundreds is not only false and pretentious, it's counterintuitive to your argument. Your original argumens was that only Ulic was in Exar's league and no other practice was worthwhile. I could just as easily argue that only Mace was in Yoda's league. So those "thousands" of partners becomes rather pointless.
a) Vodo was actually bigger than Yoda
b) How you want to compare Yoda to Vodo in lightsaber combat when we never saw Vodo using a lightsaber ?Can you substantiate that Yoda is similar to Vodo ?
a) Vodo was still of similar size to Yoda, if he was bigger, it was not much more than a foot.
b) Oh please, simply because you replace a beam of photons with a straight stick of similar dynamic doesn't mean you don't use the broad side to deflect another lightsaber. The same dynamics don't change. That's like saying the techniques between using a rapier and Chinese Jian are vastly different; again false.
And when I talk about "saber skills" I'm talking about "saber skills" and not about "force powers". Of course Yoda would get his ass kicked by Ragnos, Sadow, Nadd and even Kun when it comes to force powers but at the same moment they engage in a sheer lightsaber fight they will lose because if three persons using lightsabers accelerating their movements with force powers aren't able to hit an unarmed Yoda how would a single person be able to do that to an armed Yoda ?
Simple, because none of those three were anywhere near the caliber of a Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, or Kun. And because melee collusion is difficult to come by.
Just think of it like that: What can Kun do ? Use Sith powers ? Great...for all we know he had to use spellcasting (= some amount of time) to freeze the Senate. The Massasi draining was part of a ritual (even taking a longer amount of time than the Senate freezing). So best he can give them is terrible powerful Sith lightning that can be deflected by lightsabers while we have seen Dooku deflecting some with his bare hands and Yoda simply absorbing it.
You don't know the exact dynamics of how fast he was able to cast the spell. So again, making an argument off an assuption is simply non sequitur.
Or he doesn't use any force powers and tries to parry Yoda (a goddamn mixer aimed with a lightsaber), Mace (somebody using a lightsaber technique that is named after an animal that slashes opponents serveral hundret times per second and that Kun doesn't even know) and Dooku (using the "ultimate refinement in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat"😉 - you better tell me how to do that.
By that logic, the three of them are facing an opponent with a custom double-bladed lightsaber built for incredible speed, backed by a ridiculously powerful Sith Lord, and wielded by a technique none of THOSE THREE have seen either. Kun took his style to the grave with him.
Sorry for the double post but how the hell did Exar's power skyrocket?
They didn't skyrocket, they are just being put into a more realistic perspective. Saying Revan is a better fighter than Kun is being a KotOR fanboy, and after the reintroduction of f*cking cold, hard logic, that's becoming clear.
Originally posted by Illustrious
By that logic, Dooku couldn't block two lightsabers from two different directions and he would have died. But he didn't. Why? Because there never was a time when he was forced to make an impossible parry, his superior lightsaber prowess and force powers were able to manhandle his opponents.But what proof does he have that he needed to do anything that would require as much concentration as juggling balls?
Besides, if you give me a stick that could resist a katana blow and our skills were similar, I could easily survive just as long as I can with a katana. In fact, I wouldn't need to worry about attacking, and I can slip into a defensive form.
You make it seem like I have no swordplay experience. Outside of fencing, we spar with wooden weapons, does that mean I am less effective at [b]parrying
? Hell no.In fact, it seems like your logic isn't all there either, Nai.
You still didn't prove that he needed great concentration to strengthen his walking stick.
If he were rendered ineffective simply because he has to strengthen his walking stick, he probably would have carried a lightsaber. And as we see earlier in that same comic series, Vodo isn't too shabby with a walking stick, he was able to stalemate Kun once.
Are you reading EU I haven't even heard of? We know almost nothing about Yoda prior to him being 800 years old, just like we know very little about Vodo. For the most part, you agree with everyone else in saying the older Jedi with their battlefield experience were superior to the newer Jedi, but with Yoda, it seems to be the exception. That's called character bias.
Yes, you have to substantiate, because you made the claim that Vodo had to expend energy and concetration, but Kun did not. When you make a claim, you have to back it up. I saw NO EVIDENCE to suggest that Vodo was hampered in that fight whereas Kun was not. If you did, post the evidence.
Suddenly, you think you're an expert on Sith spellcasting, I must have missed the comic where a certain "Nai Fohl" learned how to freeze the senate and learned all the dynamics about it. Simply put, saying Kun did not need concentration while Vodo did is an unfounded assumption.
Hardly true.
Many books have spells wear off after the caster is defeated. Why? Because the spell required the constant magical energy of the caster. In fact, it's not even common logic to believe Kun's spell would follow your above statement, NOR is it said otherwise. Hence, you need to substantiate.
So the amount of time that passed is the end all of all debates? So an individual like Luke could not have possibly defeated Vader because Vader had more experience. So Revan could not have defeated Kavar, because Kavar was older and had more experience.
Stop bending rules around for Yoda. I know you love the character, but stop making him out to be a force/lightsaber god when he isn't.
How is it that Exar only had 1 opponent? He could pick a Massassi, any Massassi, and spar with it. He killed many Jedi in ACTUAL COMBAT, doesn't that count?
The fact you twist it around parameters by saying Exar only has 1 sparring partner [who is in his league] while Yoda has hundreds is not only false and pretentious, it's counterintuitive to your argument. Your original argumens was that only Ulic was in Exar's league and no other practice was worthwhile. I could just as easily argue that only Mace was in Yoda's league. So those "thousands" of partners becomes rather pointless.
a) Vodo was still of similar size to Yoda, if he was bigger, it was not much more than a foot.
b) Oh please, simply because you replace a beam of photons with a straight stick of similar dynamic doesn't mean you don't use the broad side to deflect another lightsaber. The same dynamics don't change. That's like saying the techniques between using a rapier and Chinese Jian are vastly different; again false.Simple, because none of those three were anywhere near the caliber of a Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, or Kun. And because melee collusion is difficult to come by.
You don't know the exact dynamics of how fast he was able to cast the spell. So again, making an argument off an assuption is simply non sequitur.
By that logic, the three of them are facing an opponent with a custom double-bladed lightsaber built for incredible speed, backed by a ridiculously powerful Sith Lord, and wielded by a technique none of THOSE THREE have seen either. Kun took his style to the grave with him.
They didn't skyrocket, they are just being put into a more realistic perspective. Saying Revan is a better fighter than Kun is being a KotOR fanboy, and after the reintroduction of f*cking cold, hard logic, that's becoming clear. [/B]
I gues u have to watch ROTS again watch the fight, they were waiting for dooku. They dident strike right away. So its not possible really...
Illustrious stop being a Kun fanboy, seriously dude. My mom can beat Kun. And saying that Exar Kun is a better fighter than Revan is simply not true, because according to everybody else, "Revan is based on assumption" and therefore by saying Exar Kun is a better fighter is simply hogwash because we really don't know how good Revan is. You just can't compare Revan and Kun just yet.
You my friend, are clearly the fanboy.
Originally posted by D_CP
Illustrious stop being a Kun fanboy, seriously dude. My mom can beat Kun. And saying that Exar Kun is a better fighter than Revan is simply not true, because according to everybody else, "Revan is based on assumption" and therefore by saying Exar Kun is a better fighter is simply hogwash because we really don't know how good Revan is. You just can't compare Revan and Kun just yet.
You my friend, are clearly the fanboy.
WTF? You need to go take a debate class, seriously.
Ever heard of burden of proof? Revan has very little proof behind him, meaning you can't prove he is powerful. The other side doesn't need to prove he isn't powerful, you have to prove he is.
Originally posted by Illustrious
By that logic, Dooku couldn't block two lightsabers from two different directions and he would have died. But he didn't. Why? Because there never was a time when he was forced to make an impossible parry, his superior lightsaber prowess and force powers were able to manhandle his opponents.
How far do you think could Exar Kun develop above Yoda, Dooku and Mace in terms of normal force powers and lightsaber skills ? He simply didn't have time to develop his fighting skills that far and he didn't have to fight against 2 people being far inferior to him in terms of lightsaber combat (like Dooku vs Anakin and Obi-Wan), he's facing three expert force users and lightsaber combatants here.
But what proof does he have that he needed to do anything that would require as much concentration as juggling balls?
It's said in the comic that Vodo used the force to make his stick able to parry lightsaber hits - so he had to use concentration to do that.
In fact, I wouldn't need to worry about attacking, and I can slip into a defensive form.
It would still force you to just use defensive manouvers and that is cutting down your opportunities. Isn't it ?
You make it seem like I have no swordplay experience. Outside of fencing, we spar with wooden weapons, does that mean I am less effective at parrying? Hell no.
Would you be able to defeat somebody who wears an armor that can't be penetrated / damaged with your weapon ?
You still didn't prove that he needed great concentration to strengthen his walking stick.
Read the comic...
And as we see earlier in that same comic series, Vodo isn't too shabby with a walking stick, he was able to stalemate Kun once.
If Vodo was able to stalemate Kun once why would he get wasted by the same person now ? As I said: Kun hat no time to develop his lightsaber skills much and that means that Vodo was weaker than in the duel before. Why ? Because he had to use concentration to resist Kun's Sith magic ? Or do you see any other reason ?
For the most part, you agree with everyone else in saying the older Jedi with their battlefield experience were superior to the newer Jedi, but with Yoda, it seems to be the exception. That's called character bias.
Where did I ever agree with the older Jedi being superior to the newer ones ? I've argued on that point on any possible occasions because I dislike the idea behind it and it contradicts pretty much everything in the SW universe.
"Wars don't make people great." - Yoda's words. And now have a look at it: Who are the greatest swordfighters of the order ? Yoda, Mace, Dooku - all diplomats, all having very little fighting experience but they all would be able to kick people like Anakin and Obi-Wan.
And by the way: Which "older Jedi" there are with "battlefield" experience ? Arca Jeth, Ulic and Cay Quel-Droma, Nomi Sunrider ? Ulic has seen many battlefields but still he wasn't able to defeat Kun who has never participated in any fights to that point. And the KotoR time Jedi can be excluded since Revan used special units and assasins against them - they have even less "battlefield" experience than the PT Jedi.
Yes, you have to substantiate, because you made the claim that Vodo had to expend energy and concetration, but Kun did not. When you make a claim, you have to back it up. I saw NO EVIDENCE to suggest that Vodo was hampered in that fight whereas Kun was not. If you did, post the evidence.
Nice that you see no evidence...
a) It is said in the comics that Vodo used the force to augment the strength of it staff thereby making it able to withstand lightsaber hits.
b) We saw Vodo fighting Kun into a standstill and suddenly Kun (having had no time to develop his fighting skills) is able to "toy" with Vodo and destroy him quite easily ?
Suddenly, you think you're an expert on Sith spellcasting, I must have missed the comic where a certain "Nai Fohl" learned how to freeze the senate and learned all the dynamics about it. Simply put, saying Kun did not need concentration while Vodo did is an unfounded assumption.
Whoa...
a) I was talking about spellcasting in general. If you can show me any source where a spellcaster has to concentrate on a spell after casting it I would really be astonished.
b) Show me the proof that Kun needed concentration after he did cast the spell...
This is getting even more unlogic because now you don't only have Kun toying with a person who fought him into a standstill just a short time before...no...now he's doing that while concentrating on freezing thousands of people. Sorry...that wouldn't work.
Hardly true.
Sorry...freeze thousands of persons and destroy a person who had given you a good fight just a short time before is simply impossible at least unlogical storytelling at it's best.
So the amount of time that passed is the end all of all debates? So an individual like Luke could not have possibly defeated Vader because Vader had more experience. So Revan could not have defeated Kavar, because Kavar was older and had more experience.
You're comparing different individuals while I was comparing the same individual at different times. Kun was on Ulic's level in terms of lightsaber combat and suddenly he's god without having had any additional practice ? Nice try.
Stop bending rules around for Yoda. I know you love the character, but stop making him out to be a force/lightsaber god when he isn't.
Actually Kun is my favourite character - not Yoda. But I don't give my favourite characters abilities they don't have. That is what a fanboy would do.
How is it that Exar only had 1 opponent?
Opponents close to his skill level ? It is said in the comics (again) that Kun only saw Ulic as a threat (on the Sith side) while on the Jedi's side only Vodo, Cay Quel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider might have been a threat to him. And where did he kill many Jedi in actual combat ?
The fact you twist it around parameters by saying Exar only has 1 sparring partner [who is in his league] while Yoda has hundreds is not only false and pretentious, it's counterintuitive to your argument. [/qoute]You didn't get the idea. As far as we can see every generation of Jedi Knights had some exceptional duellists. Just from the PT Jedi: You have Dooku (one generation), Mace (another generation), Cin Drallig, Anakin and Obi-Wan who are "above average" duellists. Even if you assume that there is only one being in a hundret years developing skills like Dooku or Mace their still would have been 9 people for Yoda to train with. And well...Dooku and Mace alone are twice as many opponents that Kun had.
In fact I'm not twisting around parameters - you ignore the facts being given in the comics. If Kun himself only saw Ulic as the only threat for him on the Sith side than Ulic was the only threat - that leaves Kun with one decent sparing partner being Ulic. I don't know what you want to discuss there ?
[quote]
a) Vodo was still of similar size to Yoda, if he was bigger, it was not much more than a foot.
b) Oh please, simply because you replace a beam of photons with a straight stick of similar dynamic doesn't mean you don't use the broad side to deflect another lightsaber. The same dynamics don't change. That's like saying the techniques between using a rapier and Chinese Jian are vastly different; again false.
Still...how you're going to compare Vodo to Yoda ? You simply assumed that they are very similar. To use your own words: Substantiate it - because it's only an assumption and seeing that Yoda has 300 years more experience with the force, more frontline experience and fought quite skilled lightsaber duellists (Dooku, Mace) it's quite a stupid assumption.
Simple, because none of those three were anywhere near the caliber of a Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, or Kun. And because melee collusion is difficult to come by.
None of those is anywear near Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh or Kun ? Powerwise you are right. In melee combat ? I doubt it. Are the people you named powerful enough to avoid melee combat with Dooku, Mace or Yoda ? Debateable...
You don't know the exact dynamics of how fast he was able to cast the spell. So again, making an argument off an assuption is simply non sequitur.
He wouldn't be able to do that in the blink of an eye...and that is what he needs to do.
By that logic, the three of them are facing an opponent with a custom double-bladed lightsaber built for incredible speed, backed by a ridiculously powerful Sith Lord, and wielded by a technique none of THOSE THREE have seen either. Kun took his style to the grave with him.
Kun's style was developed out of the existing lightsaber forms like any other style. So most likely all three of them would be able to explore known movements in Kun's style. I simply see a limit somewhere in developing "saberskills" that can't be crossed. Dooku, Mace and Yoda are quite near that limit and even Kun won't be able to get across it. So his only chance is killing them with far superior force powers - does he have them ? Using your own idea than Vodo could resist Kun's Sith magic without needing any concentration Yoda, Mace and Dooku would be able to do that too and again Kun would get his ass kicked.
Or wait...I will simply throw d20 stats in here: Kun's force defence 21, Yoda's affect mind ability 25. Yoda uses mind trick on Kun and Kun surrenders without any fight. This is getting ugly...
This is getting petty.
I'm gonna get into this myself when I get to work here within the hour. What i'm seeing here is a bloody clash of titans over something that wasn't contested until Yoda (Read: the only person in the SW series Nai Fohl gets personal and bias for, despite his claims of being a Kun fanboy) got in the crosshairs. Nai, you've argued that Yoda could overcome Ragnos in melee combat, despite the fact that Yoda couldn't even take on Sidious, who is a gnat compared to any ancient Sith lord, including Kun. Meh... I'm gonna be late. I'll speak more on this later.