Ganthet vs Spectre! Once and for all!

Started by OneDumbG010 pages

Ganthet vs Spectre! Once and for all!

Ganthet vs Spectre

Alright, boys and toys. Unbeknowest to most in this vs forum, a raging debate has been forming in one particular vs thread. This debate is the above subject. It started because eleveninches started a 'Ganthet vs White Crown Phoenix' thread. Several opinions abounded, but one particular off-the-topic debate literally took over the thread. After several replies, the thread opener commented that, "Ganthet is more powerful than the Spectre" to which some replied, "Garbage!" That is how this started.

I have been the sole proponent for one side of this debate and now, since I have been unable to convince my opponents and I am honestly beginning to think they are partly ignoring my premises, I leave it to you other posters who may not have had a chance to weigh in on this topic with your own opinions. Thus, for your benefit, I have decided to repost every reply, rebuttal and whatnot directly pertaining to this debate in its entirety so that you may judge. It is basically Juntai and kevdude who believe 'Spectre > Ganthet' and I, OneDumbG0, who believes 'Ganthet > Spectre.'

Keep in mind, this is not the only forum to debate this topic. Right now, several other forums which I have googled are hotly debating this topic as well. The main points of reference are 'Green lantern: Rebirth' and 'Day of Vengeance.' So it is important for people to have read these. Please be patient with me as I upload every response individually and wait for my signal to begin a NEW round of debating. Thank you for your patience!

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#1 Originally posted by eleveninches
ganthet is more powerful than the spectre, and is billions of years old, and the greatest guardian ever.

#2 Originally posted by kevdude
Ganthet more powerful then THE SPECTRE??? WHERE Has it ever been shown he is more powerful??? The Spectre could have destroyed Parallax if he wanted to, it did not bother him so he left. Ganthet was there and he couldn't do anything to Parallax, so much for ganthet being more powerful then The Spectre 🙂. White Crown Phoenix wins..

#3 Originally posted by King_Mungi
It was said in Green Lantern: Rebirth #3

Ganthet: "Kilowog is free from your influence. Even the power of the Spectre dwarfs the Guardians'."

Parallax: "You said the spectre was nothing compared to your power Guardian and Parallax still lives"

#4 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
1) Ganthet is more powerful than the Spectre. They say so, and nobody disputes it in the comics. First off, Spectre seperating Parallax and Hal was not a terribly great feat. Hell, 5 Green Lanterns did the same thing to seperate Parallax from Ganthet. Second, Hal did most of the work anyway. Lastly, just because Hal asked the Spectre to destroy Parallax doesn't mean, he would, could or should have.

#5 Originally posted by kevdude
Ganthet is not more powerful then the Spectre, there is no way he is more powerful then Gods Wrath. Parallax even states when he is ready to enter Ganthets body: "without jordan's soul, without the spirit of vengeance. I have no hands holding me in PLACE.. You said the Spectre was NOTHING compared to YOUR power Gaurdian . And Parallax still LIVES. In YOU." rit there tells anyone Parallax is again POKING FUN at Ganthet for thinking he is more powerful then The Spectre.

Oh and Hal asked Spectre to help him separate from Parallax, and if u look at the picture of The Spectre separating all 3 of them it SHOWS The Spectre doing MOST OF THE WORK not Hal. Ganthet had the help of 5 of the Greatest GLs EVER getting him separated from Parallax. after he was separated he looked like he almost dead. yes Ganthet is powerful but not as powerful as the Spectre.......... Ganthet more powerful then Spectre is like saying he's as powerful as Archangel Michael and everyone knows he will never be that powerful.

#6 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I can't understand how you would construe that as poking fun. The reason for his final comment is to show the reader and everybody around them, that if Parallax leeches onto Ganthet, he'd be more dangerous and more powerful than he was when he leeched himself onto Hal and the Spectre. Its called 'raising the stakes.'

It's what authors usually do when they lead up to their climax. I doubt Geoff Johns purposely 'lowered the stakes' for the final act. His and the artist's character designs even make this 'Ganthet version' of Parallax more monstrous and fearsome than the 'Hal and Spectre version' of Parallax. If you're assuming that I would believe that, now you're just plain insulting me.


#7 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You my friend, need to read Rebirth more carefully. You're miscontruing Parallax's statements with your preconceptions again. But if you want Parallax's statements to be truth, here's one humdinger for you. Earlier in the series Parallax is mocking Hal Jordan and the Spectre comparing the two within their trinity as mere hosts. Parallax > Spectre (serves as host for Parallax) > Hal Jordan (serves as host for Spectre). So what about that? In your version of how the story works out, Parallax is literally contradicting himself.

Secondly, Hal did most of the work there buddy. He remembered fear and fought against it. That was Parallax's weakness. And he weakened Parallax's leech-hold onto him so much, that the writer and artist rendered Hal Jordan as literally ripping Parallax apart with his own soul. After that, Spectre provided the final flash of power to help him finish the job. If you don't believe that, then just read what Spectre says to Hal Jordan halfway through the series! After all, Spectre says HIMSELF, he had been trying to burn the infection out by grafting his soul onto Jordan's and yet, he couldn't do it. The ENTIRE time they were grafted, Spectre didn't accomplish anything and Parallax just gained strength while inside Jordan. This escalation of power and danger only turned itself around because Jordan rose up, discovered the truth and fought it himself. In the end, for you to win your argument, it is necessary to assume that Ganthet and Parallax were lying when Ganthet said his power dwarfed the Spectre's. How in the hell is that a rational assumption? I'm sorry to point it out, but only your incorrect preconceptions are leading you to assume this.

#8 Originally posted by kevdude
im not insulting u at all onebumbgo we are just talking, sorry if i offended u in any way. i have read rebirth many times and again just got done reading most of it. 🙂

about Spectre/Parallax though, it does not make sense for Parallax to be more powerful then Spectre. they indeed lowered the stakes sorta in power wise but replaced it with adding more drama making Ganthet be the 1 that was infested with Parallax then Hal/Spectre. The GL's are then fighting to save Ganthet from Parallax (kinda more interesting then Parallax trying to infest The Spectre when everyone knows or should know he is no match for The Spectre).

About the host part, while Parallax is being way to over confident/contradicting in himself he says they are nothing but host's to him ( we know otherwise).. About Spectre trying to burn it up himself, it seems he was trying to get rid of Parallax for Hal by himself but the main reason he couldn't do it was because he needed help from Hal too help him, that is the hole reason in #3 while Hal/Spectre/Parallax are all talking with each other, Spectre says to Hal "You must see the truth, Hal Jordan. You must help me Fight it. The Truth about Parallax, the truth about Yourself". Once Hal was not afraid and fought against it The Spectre then stepped in and finished what Hal started. The only chance Parallax had at hurting Spectre was while he was connected with Hal, after they all was no longer connected Parallax didn't even look at The Spectre.

While the JLA and 3 GL members plus Ganthet was fighting the Parallax/Hal/Spectre they was not harming him at all. If Ganthet infected with Parallax was more powerful then Hal/Spectre w/Parallax then they would have needed more help from the JLA not just 5 GL members. Guy Guardian was amazed that The Spectre was even there and was surprised they all got ditched by him sorta saying to them "idc what happens to all of you, I have to get back to heaven God is calling me"

#9 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You ain't offending me. But, Spectre did not do most of the work. Hal was half way rid of Parallax and at that point, he asks for help. Spectre couldn't get rid of Parallax himself and since we seem to be in agreement on at least that, how can you give him more credit than Hal?

Second, the reason why the JLA, Titans, JSA and 3 Lanterns couldn't hurt Parallax-infected Spectre/Hal wasn't because he was more powerful at that time. It was because they didn't know HOW to fight it. Thats why a mere 5 Lanterns were able to take down P-infected Ganthet. They understood it and they used their rings as a conduit to trap Parallax.

For the theory of Spectre > Ganthet, you MUST assume these premises:
1) Ganthet is lying OR doesn't know what he's talking about.
2) Parallax is contradicting himself just so he can mock Ganthet.
3) The drama placed on Ganthet's possession derives from a love of the character rather than an emphasis on more danger.
4) The climax was written so that it was at its peak danger during issue #4 and lowered the stakes by #5-6.
5) The writer's and artist's designs were misleading.

For Ganthet > Spectre, those same premises are presented this way:
1) Ganthet is not lying AND knows what he's talking about.
2) Parallax never contradicts himself.
3) The drama from Ganthet's possession derives from a heightened crisis due to an increase in power.
4) The climax was written in #5 and #6 right before the resolution.
5) The writer's designs and artist's renditions were correct in making infected Ganthet much more massive and monstrous and intimidating.

Do you see where I'm getting at and why I'm getting there? Its the idea of Okham's razor. If its easier to explain it in one way, the reason is because that is the way it probably is. You're theory runs something like; Ganthet is an idiot, Parallax goes around making fun of people, the writer doesn't know basic story-telling and the depictions are flawed.

#10 Originally posted by Juntai
In the DC Legends 4 Part miniseries that kicked off his run as the Spectre, he stated and I'll quote...word by word the power he held as Paralax[the power to destroy and recreate universes, and fend himself at the same time against some of the heaviest hitters in time.] was "as a flickering candle next to an exploding sun" in comparison to The Spectre, and that was long before he unlocked The Spectre's full potential in his series.

Like I said, Ganthet is in the very highest tier in the powerful cosmics/godlikenesses, but if one of the Aspect Forces decides you need to die.. you die.. without question. This would never happen in the comic, the supreme being wouldn't allow it... but in the idea of VERSUS threads, that is what happens.


#11 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Funny then, how Spectre couldn't do a damn thing against Parallax in the more recent Green Lantern: Rebirth series. While I will believe every word you say, then the most logical thing to assume, is they apparently retconned it. Rebirth is more recent. They probably did it in anticipation of Day of Vengeance and Infinite Crisis. So in the idea of VERSUS threads, more recent material is regarded as more reliable as long as it doesn't involve PIS or CIS.

And I don't wanna hear comments on how Rebirth and Day of Vengeance are PIS or CIS, because these series,... like OMAC Project and Identity Crisis are setting stones for the damn revamp of DC comics. Geoff Johns, who wrote Rebirth is one of three authors who steered Infinite Crisis to where it is now and he's pretty much writing the actual series. So take those DC Legends miniseries and toss em,... apparently, they don't apply anymore.

#12 Originally posted by Juntai
But Hal's series as Spectre is what led us to this point, and you'd know that if you'd read them... God/The Logoz/Micheal.. everyone repeatedly told him the new age was coming from the very beginning in his run, and slowly led us to now. So much for throwing it out the window huh? The things Hal did in there, Ganthet would never be able to touch. Saying that Ganthet is more powerful than The Spectre is saying God is fallible, because The Spectre is only limited if DC's God wills it so, since it is a piece of the Almighty itself.

#13 Originally posted by Juntai
I am agreeing, Aspects/Forces of the Almighty are only subject to it's will. No being outside of this can cause it's defeat. It one of them loses, it had a purpose to do so, but in the respect of a VERSUS thread, I'm lead to assume that this is not the way it is. And although Ganthet is in the very highest teir, he is not above the almighty in any of it's forms, be it Pheonix, Spectre or Godboy.

#14 Originally posted by Juntai
And just for a nail in the coffin... in the events where Hal BECAME the Spectre, Azreal had the Spectre Force power, and one of the first things he did after freezing hell and Neron, and erupting into the physical plane.. was to shut off Ganthet, Highfather, Shazam, and the rest of the quintessences' powers, and warned them not to interfere.

#15 Originally posted by kevdude
Just because Ganthet or other characters say things that are wrong does not mean they are lying or stupid, its just the writers are showing everyone they can be wrong sometimes.....Characters are allowed to have there own humor and it shows they are actual beings not just robots.

In #4 where the part The Spectre helps Hal separate from Parallax, it shows Spectre finishing the job Hal started and Hal not helping at all just falling away.

I don't really think of it as lowering the stakes, Ganthet was and is a very powerful being, in some ways it could be said they raised the stakes because they could have lost Ganthet to Parallax forever. Batman also says in the #1 that if Hal/Parallax get control of Spectre they will be close to unstoppable.

Hal knew The Spectre could destroy Parallax by himself, but its a GL book and how would everyone feel if Spectre took out Parallax while they have all of the GL and some members of JSA/JLA there to do it.. They made The Spectre leave because he wasn't needed no more, they also wanted to show all 5 of those GL's working together and getting rid of Parallax there own way.... Ganthet cannot be more powerful or as powerful as The Spectre, The Spectre gets his power from God/The Presence, Ganthet does not get his power from The Presence.


#16 Originally posted by Juntai
The Spectre is not a merely a creation of God/The Presence, if you've ever read them, he is actually a piece of God itself. Spectre is the old testament God, and is also the face of God in different forms to nearly all races across the multiverse.

#17 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Very simple explanation then. God willed it so that Spectre is no longer as powerful as he used to be. In Day of Vengeance, the Shadowpact and Captain Marvel were about to kill him by focusing the magic of the few remaining sorcerers and magicians (few being relative in light of the fact that Spectre destroyed a lot of magic and sorcerers and cut people off from their power streams beforehand). It's not holding up anymore. If it doesn't hold up anymore, you can't cling to it. You don't bring up how Iceman sucks because he can only make snowballs because it just isn't true anymore. Just how weak do you think Ganthet wielding the power of the guardians is? Parallax wielding the power of the guardians remade the entire damn universe. I never saw Spectre do this.

This argument of Spectre can't be weaker because he's an aspect of God is ridiculous. They aren't the same thing. This is a fallacious assumption and you're missing premises. All you have to do, is insert a premise and see if this holds up. One I can think of is this. Spectre can't do anything wrong because he's an aspect of God. Well what the hell is happening now in Day of Vengeance? Spectre can't be weakened or threatened with destruction because he's an aspect of God. Spectre got spanked and says himself that they nearly destroyed him. You're argument inevitably leads to this, Spectre is the most powerful being because he's an aspect of God. And yet, that statement in itself is flawed because you exclude God. If you understand the fallacy, then you realize there are beings stronger than the Spectre. Everything in Rebirth and Day of Vengeance points to this fact. If it contradicts earlier material, scratch it up to God's will if it makes you happy.


#18 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And just FYI, I was hella surprised to find out Spectre was weaker also. I always thought he was the most powerful also. But if Geoff Johns and the rest of the DC crew are using him in this fashion, I'm not going to stick to my crumbling preconceptions in the face of new evidence that is clearly not PIS. That's the plain bottom line. Things change.

And to keep the assumption that Spectre is more powerful, you basically have to assume the 5 things that I listed up there or explain them away somehow. The fact that they are diffucult to explain away should point out to you, especially in light of Day of Vengeance that it makes more sense that Spectre isn't as powerful as you think. Is it that hard to let go?

#19 Originally posted by Juntai
Also the Shadowpact was tapping into several pantheons, dead gods, the heros, even individuals.. it was like the universe was fighting back at him. Your statement is irrelivent when its the universe vs Spectre.

#20 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Incorrect because it is illogical. He destroyed many sources of magic first off and your argument is fatally flawed anyway. Why? Because if Spectre is an aspect of God and thus unstoppable as you say, how can he be stopped by God's lesser creations, no matter how many there are? Are the beings of the universe (and equating a multitude of magic beings to the universe is ridiculous in itself) coming together to fight, greater than God? Go ahead and try to explain it away, God made a mistake, God wasn't paying attention... but it's just damn easier to realize the illogical nature of it and just turn around and accept it. Spectre is not as powerful as you guys think anymore. If you assume this as fact, then it is very easy to see why Rebirth was presented like that. Its very easy to see why Shadowpact has a chance against somebody like the Spectre. In fact, it makes sense so much, I don't have to resort to disregarding or explaining things away like plot, character dialogue, artistry, storytelling and all that jazz.

#21 Originally posted by kevdude
The Spectre was fighting thousands upon tens of thousands of magic users in that fight anyone else would have been killed if that was them, and yes i do believe Ganthet woulda been beat by Captain Marvel if it was him. Also Parallax did not remake the universe he was using weaknesses left over from the Crisis and Anti-Monitor to rebuild a new universe manipulating everything. The Spectre has never remade the entire universe???? have u read Zero Hour???? at the end The Spectre made the new DCU pumping more and more power into Damage so he couldn't control it creating the new Big Bang.

I don't really agree with juntai about The Spectre being God, he is a fallen angel transformed by The Almighty to work for him, he was given The Spectre Force by God so he could go around bringing Divine Vengeance upon anyone who is evil. The Spectre can make mistakes and when he does he usually ends up losing because that is not how God wants things... The Spectres power was powered down by The Voice. Even though The Spectre is still the most powerful being in the DCU that we usually see.


#22 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
>.> I thought I read the ending. Guess I have to go read it again. Regardless, Zero Hour was a mess and DC stayed as far away as possible from it and its 'supposed' ramifications. You say he's powered down, but if he's still the most powerful being the DC Universe, he ain't really powered down? I'll admit, I know some stuff about Spectre, for instance his humble origins and first appearance and several of his feats. But when I read Rebirth right now and Day of Vengeance, Spectre just ain't the same Spectre anymore. A lot of things changed after Identity Crisis that if held under past continuity and scrutiny don't hold up. One example is Maxwell Lord. The guy turned into a friggin cyborg post-Crisis after having his powers go all loony and the writers basically got together and said,"You think a lot of people are going to remember that?" "No." "Ok forget it, instead of explaining it, lets just ignore it."

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=40070

Stuff changes. Apparently Phoenix is God in MU. You just roll with the BS after a while if the story reads good. I will make a bonfire of the horsepoo that is X-Men: The End, but Rebirth was ok and I'm thoroughly enjoying Day of Vengeance. It wouldn't nearly be as good if Spectre was the strongest being in the universe. He could have just destroyed Parallax outright and if Geoff Johns let him do that, there's no way Rebirth could have worked. No way does Day of Vengeance work either. Captain Marvel should have just been blinked out of existence, or cut off from Shazam's power. Why would Spectre need to resort to fisticuffs? You guys are arguing with the wrong person, I didn't create the inconsistency, I just read it and roll with it. Go stick a burning cross on Geoff John's lawn. I'm just very surprised even given all of this and my careful premises, you guys still don't roll with it, but to each his own!

#23 Originally posted by kevdude
Captian Marvel was getting murdered when he was fighting Spectre by himself, Spectre didn't even know he(CM) was going to have help (thousands helping him that is). After he was getting help from them he was doing pretty good, but still CM was worn down from controlling powers he was never meant to hold... The Spectre couldn't cut off his power after he was already powered up, if he knew before hand it was going to happen he could have stopped it.

Before the fight with powered up CM, Spectre was already fighting other powerful beings, he was worn down like anyone else would be, hes been fighting constantly in almost every book of Day of Vengeance. There is no inconsistency, just read Rebirth another 10 times and ull get it. 😎


#24 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Alright, there is no way I'm going to get through to you guys. So this is my last post and I'll give you the chance to get through to me instead. You guys decide what to do with it. One of you folks commented on how Spectre was so powerful he "shut off Ganthet, Shazam and Highfather from interfering with him." Well... why didn't he just shut off Captain Marvel or shut off the connection to the power of Shazam in Day of Vengeance? Oh, right... its because he doesn't feel like it, just like he didn't feel like being rid of Parallax. More excuses. My views and logic need no excuses. This is my main problem with looking at Rebirth and Day of Vengeance "your way." Too many inconsistencies and excuses. Therefore, if you counter these points logically, and they make sense with each other, without lame excuses like above, maybe I'll consider actually believing you guys.
Thus, assuming Spectre is the strongest being in the universe, stronger than Ganthet who wielded the power of the Guardians:

1) Why did Spectre say he couldn't get rid of Parallax?
2) He did it before, so why didn't Spectre forego having to 'cook the magic out' of Cap Marvel and just shut off his connection or for that matter, shut off Shazam?
3) Why did the Spectre almost die just by the combined might of a multitude of magical beings?
4) Why did Geoff Johns make P-infected Ganthet look more threatening than P-infected Spectre/Jordan and used the former as the climax?
5) If we assume he's not lying or isn't stupid, why didn't Ganthet understand he was less powerful than the Spectre?
6) Why did Parallax contradict himself?

So far, I think my explanation to all these problems are logical, right? And they don't contradict each other and they are much easier to swallow... well except for the people who apparently refuse to believe DC, :gasps: changes things! Thusly, I challenge you, if you can explain the above coherently, without contradicting your assumption that Spectre is the most powerful being, I will start to see why you assume your views. Have fun.

#25 Originally posted by kevdude
all ur questions have been answered already... About him shutting off Shazam/Highfather/Ganthets powers and not shutting off CM powers when he was getting help, The Spectre did not KNOW that was going to happen, if he did know he would have stopped it before it actually happened ( just like how he was stopping the young girl from taking his powers away from him again ). CM was not just powered by Shazam and a few others, he was powered by all of the magical beings powered on Earth trying to stop Spectre, its kinda of hard even for The Spectre to stop the power that CM was getting because 1. he was fighting a powerful being as powerful as him. and 2. CM was being protected probably by magic so The Spectre couldn't just take it all away from him.. He would have to fight with him and wait until 1. Spectre won and out lasted CM who was being powered by thousands of other beings or 2. lose the fight and be destroyed and probably taking CM down with him.

1. The Spectre never said he couldn't destroy Parallax, he only said he was trying to separate Hal's soul from Parallax then cast judgement on it for all the evil it has done in Gods Universe... when it finally happened that Parallax from freed from Hal's soul, The Spectre was told by Hal to destroy Parallax, The Spectre then told him he was not his ring and he had interfered enough, God was calling him home, and The Spectre had to leave because it was more important for him to serve God then to serve his own will (destroying Parallax).

2. Answered already on top 🙂.

3. Hes been fighting very powerful magical beings almost no-stop, he fought CM when he was connect with tens of thousands of magical beings, CM had magic all around him protecting him and helping him in his effort to fight The Spectre. Did u even notice The Shadowpact was complaining that they felt like they felt like crap and they wasn't even the ones physicaly fighting him???

4. Probably because Parallax was getting afraid he was going to lose (they was actually stopping him from putting fear into them so they could fight him). So he did what any villain would do and that is intimidate his rivals, he grew so big to try to make them fear him so he could win, this did not work they all worked together as a team and beat him.

5. Ganthet isn't stupid and i don't believe he was meaning to lie, he can be wrong though, anyone can be wrong even him. Parallax even said right before he infected Ganthet something about like "if you Ganthet are so powerful and more powerful then The Spectre then how am i here now and u can't get rid of me??"

6. When did Parallax contradict himself??? do u mean when he told The Spectre and Hal they was nothing but hosts to him??? if u mean that then, he was being WAY to confident in himself that he forced them to be mute and they wouldn't be a problem anymore..

The Spectre has talked to The Presence, The Word(The Logos), Archangel Michael and others in Heaven, Ganthet i don't believe has even the power to get to The Silver City so how is he going to be more powerful then The Spectre??? Well i hope you understand where we are coming from about him being more powerful then Ganthet if not then maybe well get to see them both fight one on one and see who wins then, but i still say The Spectre is more powerful.

#26 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You guys are averting my lines of premises. So now I'll be more clear.

1) Why didn't Spectre seperate Parallax and Hal earlier?
2) Spectre was brawling with Capt. Marvel himself before the Shadowpact came in, why didn't he just shut off the source from Shazam at that time?
3) Why can a gathering of forces from magic users beat the almighty Spectre, the will of God (the God who is the source of everything)?
4) Why did Geoff Johns make P-infected Ganthet look more threatening than P-infected Spectre/Jordan and used the former as the climax?
5) Why did Ganthet not know he was less powerful than the Spectre?
6) Why did Parallax refer to Spectre and Jordan as mere hosts during their trinity conversation, and also repeat Ganthet's utterances that Ganthet > Spectre right before he infected him?

So far, the answers I've gotten have been: to 1) He didn't feel like it because... God works in mysterious ways 2) He could have shut off his power source, he just decided not to because... God works in mysterious ways... 3) They weren't really beating him, he was just bluffing like Parallax,... oh wait... wait... nvm... you didn't say that... umm... creations can beat that which comes from the Creator because... God works in mysterious ways... 4) It was just to make himself look more threatening,... but he really wasn't, he was just bluffing, because... the writer works in mysterious ways... 5) You can't expect Ganthet to know something like that, just because you're part of the Quintessence you can't be expected to know things like that,... maybe he was bluffing too? Or maybe he works in mysterious ways... 6) Parallax was bluffing to himself the first time... and then bluffing to Ganthet... and the image of him ripping Hal and Spectre apart like shedded skins was part of his image faking too... just to himself... cause nobody was around... cuz... he works in mysterious ways...

I thought I was reading science fiction,... not a mystery novel. Wait... I'm just bluffing... you see... I, too, work in mysterious ways...

#27 Originally posted by Juntai
He could have done it to Shazam, he did it to Black Adam in a Day of Vengeance Tie In.. Just snapped his fingers and the power went off and Black Adam almost died smashing into the ground but was saved by Atom Smasher. The Spectre hasn't almost died yet, and if you've been reading all of the tie ins, Spectre is all across the Universe squashing many of it's most powerful AT THE SAME TIME. We also need to factor in that Spectre is NOT EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE EXISTING ON THE MORTAL PLANE WITHOUT A HOST PER THE WORD OF GOD. Where was Ganthet during Zero Hour? Right, erased with everything else. Where was Spectre? The everpresent Spectre even existed in nothingness, making Hal use all his energy up so he could be defeated, the same thing he did to the Anti-Monitor. If Ganthet was more powerful, why couldn't he override Spectre turning off his powers? Why doesnt or hasnt Spectre snapped his fingers and defeated his opposition? Good storytelling.. or maybe "God works in mysterious ways", either way, Ganthet is of the highest teir in DC for sure, but Spectre is only limited by one will-- The Presence, and one and only one thing can defeat him outside of that, the weapon that pierced the holy veil, The Spear of Destiny.

#28 Originally posted by Juntai
How does Wolverine slice up half the people does? How does Batman take blows from bloodlusted Superman? It's called making a story.. but fact is, it's been proven that he CAN cut Shazam the wizards power granted to his heralds useless, as he turned off Black Adam's in Day of Vengeance tie ins, and when Azmodel turned all of the quintessence's power off when he was Spectre.

#29 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If you can get past the sarcasm in my above post, you see I address each of kevdude's explanations using the logic of the "Spectre > Ganthet" supporters and it doesn't really convince me at all. So now, I'll address some of Juntai's problems with my theories:

1) [b]"Why didn't Ganthet override Spectre by turning off his powers?" Because he was facing Parallax and not Spectre. You may counter, "why couldn't he shut Spectre off inside of Parallax and relieve Parallax of the Spectre's power?" Maybe because Parallax wouldn't let him or Ganthet couldn't penetrate Parallax? You see, in my scheme of things, Ganthet isn't more powerful than HalSpectrellax, especially not with the immense fear he's causing worldwide. (Yes worldwide, Hal mentions that all the heroes and even normal citizens are going nuts with fear at the end of #5 and remember, fear powers Parallax)

2) "Where was Ganthet during Zero Hour? Right, erased with everything else. Where was Spectre? The everpresent Spectre even existed in nothingness, making Hal use all his energy up so he could be defeated." Yes, he was erased, he doesn't have the power of the Guardian's... cuz Hal/Parallax at that time stole them completely, remember Emerald Twilight? You say Spectre exists in nothing. He's more powerful than the power of the Guardians! Well... umm... you said yourself Hal is there too. Why is he there? Hal/Parallax back then wielded the power of the Guardian's. You said Spectre had to make Hal burn himself out... what's he burning out that is such a threat? The power of the Guardians. Well, do you see? The power of the Guardian's dwarf's even the Spectre's. After Hal/Parallax had relinquished the Guardian's power, before the reappearance of the new Guardian's,......... "Who solely wielded the power of the Guardians?"

<Please insert answer here> Check and mate.

Edit: I still can't believe you're clinging to the writer just decided not to have Spectre do all things he could have for story's sake. Fine, believe that. That decision, EVEN IF TRUE doesn't explain why Ganthet said the things he did and why Parallax said the things he did and why Parallax was even presented that way in the story. Why can't you just believe, THAT's the way the writers wanted you to see it?! [/B]

#30 Originally posted by kevdude
onebumbgo i gave u the answers myself 😑 , spent 10 mins putting it together o well , read rebirth another 10 times to understand it all, it takes awhile for everything to sink in, took me awhile too

#31 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I read your answers clearly and addressed them. But instead of addressing them in a sarcastic manner, I will address them purely analytically.
Your answer to #1 does not explain why Spectre didn't just seperate Parallax from Jordan. It explains WHAT happened. It does not give reason as to WHY Spectre did not seperate Parallax from Jordan.

Your answer to #2 completely bypasses my premise. You start answering by saying, [b]"Spectre didn't expect the magicians of the world to start feeding power into Capt. Marvel." That isn't what I asked, I asked why Spectre didn't just shut off his Shazam power stream at the very beginning before Shadowpact came in.

Your answer to #3, while logical,... does not give support to 'Spectre > Ganthet w/ Guardian's power.' I thought you were going to say that Spectre was much too powerful, even for combined might of magicians. But you were smart and didn't fall into this trap. But if anything, it gives support to my assertion that Spectre isn't as powerful as you claim. The guy can be beaten and destroyed. The Guardian's power has always existed. It's never been destroyed, only subverted.

Your answer to #4 is weak. If all that presentation and writer/artist design was all just "intimidation tactics by Ganthellax," where's the proof within the story? Proof like, Parallax having an internal conversation saying, "I'll need to scare them." Or Jordan or Ganthet saying at the end, "He was just bluffing. Good job not being intimidated." There's nothing like this. You have to inject this hidden intention yourself, and that is not very reasonable to do considering the proof against it. The proof against it is; that Ganthet said he was more powerful, Parallax confirmed this, therefore he is more powerful and that is why Ganthellax looks more powerful.

Your answer to #5 subverts my premise again. You answer: a) "Ganthet can be wrong." b) "If Ganthet > Spectre, why didn't Ganthet destroy Parallax before being infected?" First off, with respect to a), there is no direct reference or proof in the story that showed Ganthet to be wrong. He didn't say, "I was wrong." Spectre didn't say, "You were wrong." BUT, Parallax confirmed Ganthet's statement twice! Specthallax said, "The Spectre is nothing but a host to me as you (Hal) are to him (Spectre)." and when he repeated to Ganthet, "You say Spectre is nothing to you? Then Parallax lives. In you!" That last comment more reasonably reads to me, that Parallax is confirming what Ganthet said, and dramatically states he is gonna raise the stakes by taking over a being more powerful than the Spectre!

As per the second part of your response b);... Ganthet couldn't destroy Parallax. That is plain to see. But just by being stronger than Spectre doesn't automatically mean he can destroy Parallax. And so, conversely, just by not being able to destroy Parallax, doesn't mean Ganthet is weaker than Spectre. You forget, NOBODY can destroy Parallax. He is a manifestation of sentient fear throughout the universe. The only thing anybody ever did to Parallax is imprison him. The GL's accomplished this because they had the rings as a conduit to send Parallax back into the Power Battery and fought him by embracing their worst fear and conquering it within themselves.

Your answer to #6 shows some confusion to my question. You clearly ask, "When did Parallax contradict himself? Understand, I DON'T think he contradicted himself. But you, with your premise that 'Parallax < Spectre' do believe that. You said it yourself, Parallax is mocking Ganthet's words. He doesn't really believe that the two of them are stronger than Spectre. But if Parallax understands that, why would he refer to Spectre as a mere host in their trinity conversation? Why did the artist render Parallax's return in #3 as ripping Spectre and Jordan as mere husks? That is the contradiction. But it is only a contradiction because of the way you think, not the way I think. Your last bit at the end of your answer was that "He was being overconfident or trying to bluff them." Come on... that is the same kind of weak answer to #4. The only one Parallax was overconfident about was Hal. Nothing in the story points to Parallax ever underestimating the Spectre or intentionally bluffing because of desperation. In fact, there is evidence in the form of actual conversation against this which I just cited above.

Now, if you still disagree with this, that is just too bad. Like I said, I gave you the oppurtunity to convince me. The weak answers above do not convince me. If you want me to take one last shot at convincing you, I'll do it by contrasting how everything in Rebirth and Day of Vengeance makes much more sense if "Ganthet > Spectre." and literally layer that analysis on top of yours and show which one is stronger. Not once, have you shown any actual words, conversation, admission of mistakes within those pages that are in direct contradiction to my premises. Again, your view is colored going into the books. So was mine! But act like you don't know anything and take it at its face value! Don't inject hidden intentions into Parallax, Ganthet or Spectre if there's no evidence for them. In fact, there's evidence against these 'hidden intentions.'

Edit: Can you at least admit, there aren't any glaring holes or inconsistencies in my responses to you? And can you at least admit, that my version of what happened in Rebirth and Day of Vengeance makes sense and has no glaring holes or inconsistencies? [/B]

#32 Originally posted by kevdude
I answered #2 on the first paragrapgh. The Spectre was shocked to see how much power/magic Captian Marvel had all around him protecting him..... . why he didn't shut off his power?? my guess he didn't feel the need or threated from Captian Marvel to do it, he just wanted to wear him down and force him to use all his magic up so he wouldn't be a problem later..... In there 2nd fight Captian Marvel was throwing punchs at Spectre and he just stood there telling him he wouldn't allow him to deter him from what he wanted to do there no longer and said "Shazam" turning CM back into Billy, then proceeding to Shazam and killing him. I agree with both of you in some ways but The Spectre is still more powerful then Ganthet. He can be destroyed just like any other being, its just he can take alot more then almost anyone else can. In your ranking Ganthet is almost as powerful as Archangel Michael or The Word which he is not. Do u think Ganthet could ever begin to fight Michael???? he would get killed very easy if he even dared lay a hand on Michael. read rebirth and dov 10 times and LOOK at the pictures they are as big as part of the comic book as the words. If ur still not sure then well have to wait and maybe well see Spectre and Ganthet fight in Infinite Crisis then see who wins. 😎