Ganthet vs Spectre! Once and for all!

Started by OneDumbG010 pages

Here's another 5 links more on point with respect to the editorial oversight. They're generally concluded here in my favor as well. You guys are on a dangerous tack. Because if you guys are relying on the editorial oversight in your favor, all you're giving me, is the chance to prove it was on my favor and everything you guys say falls apart. You sure you want to do that? Well maybe you should, because lord knows, your other theses have not kept water with the inconsistencies I have pointed out in plot, actions, artistry, and storytelling:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/archive/index.php/t-43458.html

http://www.sketchyorigins.com/comics/showthread.php?t=8090&page=4

http://thekryptonian.com/showpost.php?p=187086&postcount=15

http://superherochat.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1208213&sid=46a527006c4174c067b33dc5540cdd56

And on this comic reviewer's page, he also echoes the same editorial oversight thought in my favor:

"I didn%u2019t like how drained Green Arrow was from using the ring, and Johns%u2019s hysterical (not in the funny way) Batman is really grating. Also, there seems to be some confusion in the dialogue about whether the Guardians are more powerful than the Spectre or the other way around. Ganthet says %u201CEven the power of the Spectre dwarfs the Guardians,%u201D (side note: he said %u201Cdwarfs%u201D and %u201CGuardians%u201D >snicker<😉 and then Parallax says later, %u201CYou said the Spectre was nothing compared to your power, Guardian.%u201D Uh, no he didn%u2019t%u2026 I%u2019m guessing the first one was the mistake, but if so I think it%u2019s dumb to put the Guardians above the wrath of God. I could go on with the nerdspeak, but why don%u2019t I move on to the next book instead."

Found in:

http://davinder.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_davinder_archive.html

Dude, for Presence's sake..... Spectre is the WRATH OF GOD, its like this..

Spectre= Your Hand
Universe= Aquarium
Inhabitants (Ganthet, Batman, BILLLY BATSON)= Fishes
Presence= You !!!

Get the meaning...... Anything inside the Aquarium can HURT spectre, but the Spectre can kill em all !!!

Maybe the Spectre's normal power is comparable or may be below Ganthet, but Specs power FLUCTUATES !!!! dude....... every fluctuating dude rullezzz these forums (Hulk, Gladiator, GLs) so does Spectre !!!

Even though I said GL powers revolve around will power, Ganthet's power doesnt !!! Because it is capped (I know its never stated, but I'm sure you can see this if use your head) !!!

I don't have to listen to you at all. Especially when you're skirting the issue of what is going on within the pages itself. Your questions are ambiguous, you ask for an EXACT comparison/answer from me, yet you qualify your own statement by saying the power of the spectre fluctuates. Wehn I ask it of you guys, you avoid the contradictions and inconsistencies. Again, try as best to convince me, but do so reasonably. I won't be boxed in.

BTW, if you say the Spectre fluctuates, you just pretty much agreed with everything I said.

Secondly, the power of the Guardians? Yeah, thats been equated to a fundamental part of the Source, which many have referred to as God in the DC universe. Since Ganthet at that time was the sole wielder, you could see why that dwarfs the Spectre who is merely a 'hand' in your analogy. So what now?

Anyway, we're getting off topic dammit. I keep answering and countering everything you guys throw at my position, including peripheral stuff. Time for you guys to buckle down and explain the contradictions and inconsistencies with your own position.

the first 1 where Ganthet says "Even the power of the Spectre dwarfs the Guardians." that means Ganthet is telling Parallax The Spectre is more powerful then the Guardians not the other way around. and pretty much everyone on those forums are in agreement that The Spectre > Ganthet. Even the comic reviewer's page guy says The Spectre should > Ganthet not Ganthet > Spectre. Also during the whole time Parallax was in Hal/Spectre, Spectre himself was trying to figure out a way to get rid of Parallax without hurting Hal, Hal wanted Redemption the Spectre wants Vengeance, Hal won early when he was joined with The Spectre but then Parallax started to come out more and more this was turning Hal into wanting more Redemption and The Spectre then started wanting Vengeance again knowing it could kick Parallax out of Hal's soul but the only way it could happen is if Hal wanted Vengeance not Redemption and right before The Spectre finally split Parallax from Hal Hal was asking for HELP from The Spectre and The Spectre said "ONLY VENGEANCE" then Hal finally went to Vengeance and The Spectre was able to kick him out finally. Right after he dehosted Parallax from Hal, Hal demanded The Spectre to destroy Parallax and The Spectre said "Do not order me, I am not your ring, i am the Spectre, and i have interfered ENOUGH. Your soul is free of the Disease". The Spectre then went directly to Heaven leaving everyone there (notice Ganthet didn't follow him either, if he was more powerful he would be able to stop him from leaving).

also notice in the Forums of this site it is talking about Rebirth #4 and in that they talk about Day of Judgement where some guy puts this down.

"And The Spectre did try to take out Parallax directly on a few occasions, once during Zero Hour and again right afterwards in a tale written by Geoff Johns prior to Day of Judgement. In it, The Spectre is about to destroy Parallax, but stops because he thinks Hal Jordan's soul can be redeemed."

The Spectre was basically trying to free Hal so he could try to be redeemed and have another chance... there is no bigger inconsistence then putting the Wrath of God below Ganthet.

here is a few rankings ppl made showing The Spectre above Ganthet or even Ganthet not being in the ranking at all.
http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.php/3/4/1505/1/3
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-20314-the-new-whos-the-most-powerfull-marvel-character-ever.html

Your rationales do not directly redeem the 6 inconsistencies I have listed as being important to me. Now according to you, supposedly, its not that the Spectre didn't feel like freeing him, it was because Hal was preventing Spectre because Hal wanting redemption which was counter to Spectre wanting vengeance? You just placed Hal's influence above the Spectre's influence and power! You had better abandon that view and just stick with Spectre didn't feel like it.

Putting the Wrath of God below Ganthet does sound off. I agree. I thought it was vice-versa. But Green Lantern: Rebirth turns that around. But then when you think about it, Ganthet is not just some little gnome alien from another planet. The guy wields the Power of the Guardians solely at that point.

That power comes from the Source itself and is a part of the Source. The Source has been equated to the Presence, God and whatnot. So if Ganthet wielding the Power of the Guardians, is wielding an aspect of the Source/Presence/God itself, and Spectre is merely the wrath avatar, limiting himself to being a pure agent or 'hand' for acts of vengeance, you could logically see how this happens:

'A part of the Source' dwarfs an 'agent of the Source.'

So what now? You guys wanna keep going off these side tacks, I'm happy to tackle them, but I really want to get back to how you guys are reading Green Lantern: Rebirth, because all these peripheral issues are indications to me that your interpretations of Green Lantern: Rebirth are in fact weak and you can't handle the logical arguments I threw your way. Especially after you guys hinged your bets on that editorial/grammatical error and now you have to take it back, given how most people think the other way in my 7 or 8 links. I'm not going to hinge my bets on that. I'm not going to hinge my bets on Source vs Agent of Source. Lets stick to the issues.

And those lists you posted? Those are fan lists, and they aren't even consistent with each other nor with other fan lists I have seen. So those are not convincing to me at all. I might as well quote my own list if I feel like it and prop that up as evidence.

Edit: And how do you reconcile "Hal's desire for redemption overpowering or competing with Spectre's desire for vengeance" with the fact that Parallax was the one responsible for all of Hallax's horrors and not Hal himself? This isn't called Green Lantern: Redemption. Hal doesn't redeem himself at all. Hal is absolved of everything because Parallax is responsible. This is what fans hated, but that is fact. So if this clearly is the case, what does redemption vs vengeance have anything to do with this, given that Hal doesn't have to redeem anything?! Hal never says, "I redeemed myself. It's over." He says, "I'm back to being me again." In other words, Hal wanted to be himself again, and the whole redemption/vengeance motif is not right. He felt it wasn't "him." He suspected that something wasn't right. Of course he feels guilt, but he isn't going around to the confession booth. He's going around living life on his own, free from Parallax and free from Spectre. That is the ultimate triumph of the entire storyline. This 'redemption vs vengeance' is another convenient plot you injected into the storyline to try to explain why Spectre didn't just seperate Hal from Parallax.

for a time Hal won and The Spectre let him continue on that way. Hal did not win in the end The Spectre got his way more then Hal did in wanting Vengeance because he wasn't letting hal sleep or do very much of anything, he was wearing Hal down to the point Hal would have to break and give in to what The Spectre wanted (Vengeance).

Most of those people on those sites don't agree with your view they agree that The Spectre owns Ganthet which he should and does. Shazam/Phantom Stranger/Ganthet are all around the same power level and The Spectre just got done killing Shazam when he was at his most powerful, he made sure Phantom Stranger wouldn't directly be a big problem for a good while and he sure should be able to take out Ganthet, Ganthet can't even get destroy Doomsday.

The 2nd statement Parallax even confirms The Spectre is more powerful when he says The Spectre was holding him back from what he wanted and after he left nobody was there to stop him not even Ganthet that is what this means "Without Jordan's Soul without The Spirit of Vengeance, I have no hands holding me in PLACE. you said The Spectre was nothing compared to YOUR power Guardian, And Parallax STILL LIVES In YOU""" He is going in Ganthet because nobody can stop him and because he was kicked out of Hal's soul and at the same time The Spectre removed him from being his host.

about the 1st statement when they are both talking when Ganthet tells Parallax Spectre is more powerful Parallax says "LIES, You forgot nothing, you allowed for this to happen, without chaos, without evil in the universe you have no reason to exist" Parallax believes Ganthet is lying about what he just said and he believes himself Ganthet is more powerful which he is not..

If you still think Ganthet > Spectre then thats what u think while I and others believe its Spectre > Ganthet. Maybe we will see Spectre and Ganthet fight 1vs1 in Infinite Crisis soon, and if it happens my moneys on Spectre. If the Spectre loses its probably because hes been fighting for almost none stop for 8-10 long months (not even Ganthet can continue to fight like that).

The Redemption vs Vengeance storyline was not injected into the story by me it was injected into the story by DC and the writers themselves! If you followed that storyline along with this 1 it makes sense. Also Hal redeemed himself by fighting the evil that was in him and he does know he was half responsible and everyone else knows that as well, they are not taking all of the blame away from Hal. For people to say DC is just leting Hal off scot free and saying he isn't to blame or he didn't really mean it they don't understand or haven't read everything through correctly. Hal wouldn't even probably remember that part about him needed redeemed because after he was seperated from Spectre he even says he doesn't remember much of what happened while he was connected with him(Spectre).

Originally posted by kevdude
The 2nd statement Parallax even confirms The Spectre is more powerful when he says The Spectre was holding him back from what he wanted and after he left nobody was there to stop him not even Ganthet that is what this means "Without Jordan's Soul without The Spirit of Vengeance, I have no hands holding me in PLACE. you said The Spectre was nothing compared to YOUR power Guardian, And Parallax STILL LIVES In YOU""" He is going in Ganthet because nobody can stop him and because he was kicked out of Hal's soul and at the same time The Spectre removed him from being his host.
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. You say Parallax confirms Spectre > Ganthet in this quote? Looks to me, he confirms the opposite. And where in that quote does it confirm that Spectre was holding Parallax back from what he wanted?

'Holding me in place' does not mean that Parallax was powerless to do anything because he was enjoined to Spectre. I mean, just look at the struggle itself as a chronological timeline. When Hal is joined with Spectre, what happens? Spectre tries to burn Parallax out, ultimately fails and then, asks for Hal's help. During that time, Parallax emerges FULLY and battles Gl's and superheroes. Only until Hal discovers a way to battle Parallax do they together, find a way to seperate Parallax. Therefore, logically, since Spectre's only purpose was to drive Parallax from Hal... and he couldn't do that until Hal was told the truth, then logically, you can conclude, Spectre was powerless on his own against Paralllax. How do you resolve this infallible logic? 'Holding me in place' means that he needs to have a host body to manifest himself, otherwise he's vulnerable to the Guardians' original plan of pure willpower stalemating fear. It doesn't mean Spectre stopped him. If anything, Spectre made things worse because Parallax was leeching onto his power.

Originally posted by kevdude
... About the 1st statement when they are both talking when Ganthet tells Parallax Spectre is more powerful Parallax says "LIES, You forgot nothing, you allowed for this to happen, without chaos, without evil in the universe you have no reason to exist" Parallax believes Ganthet is lying about what he just said and he believes himself Ganthet is more powerful which he is not..
This is exactly why I am taking issue with your positions. You're interpretation of that quote is so far off, man. The 'lies' that Parallax is referring to is when Ganthet references how he was 'free of Parallax's taking away his memories!' Remember when Ganthet and Kyle explain why Ganthet didn't recognize Parallax was free and both hypothesized that Ganthet was somehow brainwashed or influenced by Parallax into forgetting? Ollie and Parallax both reiterate, "That's garbage! They knew!" Ollie thinks they can't be trusted and Parallax believes Ganthet is just purely lying because Ganthet's existence as a Guardian strives on the existence of fear. Without fear and chaos, there is no need for order and the Guardians. I can't believe you think Parallax is referencing Ganthet's comment about how the Power of the Guardians dwarfs the Spectre!

Originally posted by kevdude
The Redemption vs Vengeance storyline was not injected into the story by me it was injected into the story by DC and the writers themselves! If you followed that storyline along with this 1 it makes sense. Also Hal redeemed himself by fighting the evil that was in him and he does know he was half responsible and everyone else knows that as well, they are not taking all of the blame away from Hal. For people to say DC is just leting Hal off scot free and saying he isn't to blame or he didn't really mean it they don't understand or haven't read everything through correctly. Hal wouldn't even probably remember that part about him needed redeemed because after he was seperated from Spectre he even says he doesn't remember much of what happened while he was connected with him(Spectre).
Look. There is a reason why this storyline was made. It was to absolve Hal, so that he could return to being a hero. DC dumped this job on Geoff Johns. Although a lot of people have taken issue with this, including myself, that is ultimately the resolution. It is NOT called Green Lantern: Redemption. Rebirth means a new beginning. It means that Hal is free! Everything that happened was the result of Parallax's influence! That's the way the story ends and stands! Hal never says once, "I feel redeemed." He doesn't say, "Now I need to redeem myself." He doesn't say, "There's no way for me to redeem myself." He doesn't say, "Spectre wants vengeance, I just want redemption." You know what he says? He says, "I should have known! If I had known. I would have fought against it!" What does Batman say, "You expect me to believe this? That everything was the result of some parasite influencing you?" How does Hal respond? He doesn't get on the ground and say, "No. You're right. It is my fault and I have to redeem myself." He says, "I don't care what you think." He doesn't have to answer to anybody for Hallax's actions, especially not the one character who wants to hold it against him so badly.

Again, the ultimate resolution of this storyline, is that Hal is free to make his own decisions. No more fear controlling him. No more cries for vengeance. He's in control, in the cockpit, so to speak. Where does Hal go in the new ongoing series? He doesn't go apologizing to ANYBODY. He goes on living his life and trying to pick up its broken pieces by going back to where he left off! For you to say the point of Rebirth was a 'redemption vs vengeance' storyline is so far off from people's interpretations, it leads me to believe that your preconception of Spectre > Ganthet w/ Power of Guardians has completely ruined this storyline for you. For that, I just feel sorry. Now look, Rebirth is an excuse in many people's opinions. But that is what it is and the way DC intended it. They needed Hal back, they didn't want him wrapped up in guilt. Therefore, he needed to be absolved. Absolution does not involve redemption. For you to warp this absolution around to fit your needs of redemption just to show proof as to why Spectre didn't seperate them is what I call 'injecting plot.'

So far, you guys have been bringing up new point after new point and they ultimately fail in convincing me. The ONLY point I am at a loss for is Shazam's apparent defeat. BTW, thanks for spoiling that for me guys. I haven't gotten to my comic shop this week. 😠 But in any case, if we assume Shazam's power is completely destroyed, I have to say that Shazam did not represent all of magic, nor did it represent a considerable, fundamental part of the Source/Presence, while the Power of the Guardians does. Weak? Maybe. But let us consider the opposite: If Shazam has survived, and will resurface later, or has transferred his power elsewhere, than this evidence is in my favor in showing how Spectre couldn't vanquish Shazam or his power. Therefore, until we see Crisis resolve itself, this could go either way.

You never adequately countered my 6 original wrongs. You have come up with new points that I have shot down like the editor's oversight and these last two interpretations of quotes. Hell, you even forced me to rationalize the grand order of the DC universe and I have never asked the same of you. You guys need to give it up and concede that my position is stronger. Every new argument of you guys is leading further away from the original 6 premises and is digging yourself further and further into inconsistency. If you want, I can organize a new list of inconsistencies with your opinion and literally pump it back up to nearly a dozen different fallacies and contradictions. But all I need from you, is cogent explanations of the first original 6. The only one I have received a cogent response is to #3. But like I said, that was merely a trap for you and you avoided it.

Originally posted by kevdude
the first 1 where Ganthet says "Even the power of the Spectre dwarfs the Guardians." that means Ganthet is telling Parallax The Spectre is more powerful then the Guardians not the other way around. and pretty much everyone on those forums are in agreement that The Spectre > Ganthet. Even the comic reviewer's page guy says The Spectre should > Ganthet not Ganthet > Spectre.
Oh yeah. BTW on this one. Again, a COMPLETE misinterpretation. The gentleman says that the 1st one is a mistake. Which is in agreement with me. Than he says, its dumb to put the Power of the Guardians over the wrath of God. He DOES NOT say its 'wrong.' He says its dumb. Which means, he takes issue with it because it doesn't seem right, but that is how it is presented in the story so he takes it as truth. Stop twisting words like 'dumb' into 'wrong.' I don't like having to point out these misinterpretations.

And apparently, its 3 vs 5 in terms of Ganthet vs Spectre in these forums. The original 2 posters who said Rebirth was written and should be interpreted as ganthet > Spectre and me. The 5 opposers are you, Juntai, GS (who hasn't contributed much), Immortalone and Ultimate Ion. Snoopdog is undecided. Besides, I shot down Juntai's and Immortalone's arguments down.

Honestly, I'm going to start keeping score on each issue presented. If I tally up and illustrate the number of arguments that have been abandoned by you guys, maybe that'll show you how weak your stance is.

did u read everything the comic reviews guy said??? he said and i quote "I’m guessing the first one was the mistake, but if so I think it’s dumb to put the Guardians above the wrath of God." Now he is misinterpreting what Ganthet said as it meaning Ganthet is above Spectre, in reality it means the opposite. Also notice he is not in agreement with you when he says "im guessing the first one was a mistake" that means he thinks Spectre > Ganthet, that is what he is saying in that whole sentence.

I have countered everything you have said, and everything I have said makes perfect sense if you read and look at everything correctly. I was where u was about not understanding rebirth and sorta thinking Ganthet > Spectre but that is not the case at all.. It seems your love for the character Ganthet is blinding you to the truth and you won't give up where it is evidently clear Spectre > Ganthet. Ya I'll admit i love Spectre and I love Ganthet too but I'm not putting him (Spectre) above Archangel Michael or Lucifer Morningstar, that is what you are doing to The Spectre putting Ganthet above him....

Originally posted by kevdude
did u read everything the comic reviews guy said??? he said and i quote "I’m guessing the first one was the mistake, but if so I think it’s dumb to put the Guardians above the wrath of God." Now he is misinterpreting what Ganthet said as it meaning Ganthet is above Spectre, in reality it means the opposite. Also notice he is not in agreement with you when he says "im guessing the first one was a mistake" that means he thinks Spectre > Ganthet, that is what he is saying in that whole sentence.

"Also, there seems to be some confusion in the dialogue about whether the Guardians are more powerful than the Spectre or the other way around. Ganthet says "Even the power of the Spectre dwarfs the Guardians," (side note: he said 'dwarfs' and 'Guardians' >snicker< ) and then Parallax says later, "You said the Spectre was nothing compared to your power, Guardian." Uh, no he didn't. I'm guessing the first one was the mistake, but if so I think it's dumb to put the Guardians above the wrath of God. I could go on with the nerdspeak, but why don't I move on to the next book instead."

Look at it, man! He says the two statements are inconsistent with each other. The first is read grammatically as "Spectre > Ganthet." The second is read grammatically as "Ganthet > Spectre." If Parallax is quoting Ganthet word for word, what's going on? He says the first one is the mistake. In other words, the editor missed that the first one meant "Spectre > Ganthet" but they really meant "Ganthet > Spectre." That way, it reconciles the contradiction. Then, after having made that observation that what Ganthet and Parallax meant was "Ganthet > Spectre," he takes issue with it and says that's dumb. Dumb, but not wrong. Dumb, but not false. Man, if you're even reading this incorrectly, I completely understand why you're misinterpreting Rebirth so badly.

Well i give up there no getting through to u that Spectre > Ganthet 😛 . Maybe well see them fight in Infinite Crisis and see who wins.

Originally posted by kevdude
I have countered everything you have said, and everything I have said makes perfect sense if you read and look at everything correctly. I was where u was about not understanding rebirth and sorta thinking Ganthet > Spectre but that is not the case at all.. It seems your love for the character Ganthet is blinding you to the truth and you won't give up where it is evidently clear Spectre > Ganthet. Ya I'll admit i love Spectre and I love Ganthet too but I'm not putting him (Spectre) above Archangel Michael or Lucifer Morningstar, that is what you are doing to The Spectre putting Ganthet above him....
GWaaaaagagahghghhhg!!! Man, I couldn't give two craps about Ganthet! I already told you, before reading Rebirth, I thought Spectre > Ganthet also! But that got turned around, not because I am sexually attracted to the stupid midget, but with the way Rebirth reads! WTH?!!? Man, when have any of my damn positions not held water? You keep attacking me by saying, "Well this means this.... and this means that!" Well gimme a break fella, but if you look at the statements in context you see why I think your view is inconsistent!

Your view, just with respect to my 6 original premises:

1) Spectre didn't feel like burning out Parallax on his own,... even though he could. 2) Spectre didn't feel like cutting off Shazam's power stream to Cap at the beginning of the fight,... even though he could. 3)Ganthellax is not as dangerous as Spectrehallax, even though that is the way the creative team depicted him, because Ganthellax is just trying to intimidate them. Also, the stakes were lowered towards the climax, or they weren't really, because people love Ganthet and the possibility of losing him is a 'heightened crisis.' 4)Bottomline, Ganthet has to be wrong for thinking Spectre is weaker. 5) Parallax has to be contradicting himself during his trinity conversation, or in your words, he is making fun of Ganthet and the Spectre.

The first two premises are explained away by "He just didn't feel like it." The third is explained either that the artist was wrong, or via a hypothesis that maybe Parallax was trying to intimidate them, even though rationally, everyone should know he's not as dangerous and people love dwarfs (here, YOU are overestimating people's love for Ganthet, not ME!)... The fourth just flat out rejects the notion that Ganthet knows what he is talking about. Even though Ganthet is a pretty wise character, wiser than all the Guardians and is part of the Quintessence, he simply does not know the pecking order. The fifth one has either one of two alternatives, he either is contradicting himself or he is making 'fun' of Ganthet and the Spectre. You know,... that COULD be an explanation. But doesn't that sound hella weak? Aren't there so many points within just those 5 premises that I can nitpick at to indicate that maybe there is a more rational explanation?

Now lets be fair and structural, list as many reasons that you think are important to your view, where my view doesn't hold up water. List those, and give me a new chance to tackle all your objections at once and if I can resolve them together as a whole, at the very least, all I am expecting you to do, is acknowledge it as being logically airtight.

Originally posted by kevdude
Well i give up there no getting through to u that Spectre > Ganthet 😛 . Maybe well see them fight in Infinite Crisis and see who wins.
Y'know what. I'm disappointed. Instead of recognizing the faults of your own interpretations and readings, or instead of backing up your own theories by logically debunking my counters, you just decide to give up. Looks like someone just got beaten in a debate. If your position was really that strong and solid, you could reconcile everything with logic. But assumptions and injected plots abound.

The only strong premise that could go either way, is the feat of Spectre apparently destroying Shazam. But again, that could go either way because we haven't seen the end result of this. Is the power of Shazam really gone? Where is Cap and his family? Is their a successor to the power? In the end, when I decide to enlighten you, I'll post my version of what happens in Rebirth in a concise summation and explain how this is reconciled with people's belief that Spectre ought to be greater than Ganthet. Maybe when you see it as a whole, you'll finally own up to the fact that it makes more sense than your view. Because lord knows, I shot down everything you and your friends posted individually and you guys never came back with logical retorts to bolster your own view. Every new premise you tried to use was shot down and subsequently abandoned whereas I have abandoned nothing. You have never shown any of my premises taken as a whole to be weak and contradictory with each other. Maybe tomorrow, I'll post the summation for your benefit.

Ok Ive been maybe tackling it the wrong way lol. u said you thought it was Spectre > Ganthet which it is, you said that before u read Rebirth, now i am asking you to read rebirth again and don't think or listen about what Ganthet and Parallax are saying to one another, listen and really pay attention to what Hal and The Spectre are talking about that is more important then what Parallax and Ganthet is talking about.

1. The main reason he couldn't burn Parallax out of Hals soul was because Hal was wanting redemption while Spectre was wanting Vengeance, "note before Hal/Parallax joined The Spectre he was about to burn Parallax out himself but that would have meant Hal going to hell and The Spectre didn't want that so he gave Hal a chance at redeeming himself and going to Heaven". The main chance Parallax had a chance to begin to fight Spectre was when he was joined along with him, after he was split from him again he wouldn't be a problem for Spectre and Spectre just ignored him while Parallax didn't even fight The Spectre while they was seperated.

2. I'm guessing from what Spectre said he just couldn't take Caption Marvels powers away because he was filled with so much magic, even the Spectre was amazed at how much magic he had protecting him.

3. I wouldn't say the stakes was lowered they could have lost the battle still and lost Ganthet was well, Parallax was getting more determinded because he had beings that was actually fighting him and putting up a good fight, this made him try and start effecting more and more people in Los Angeles riots was breaking out feeding Parallax's power and cops was trigger happy in Star City.

4. In your view Ganthet is more powerful then Spectre in mine he isn't so if your saying u believe that he thinks hes more powerful then The Spectre then I would say he is wrong for thinking that. I wouldn't call him dumb or something like that he's just way to over confiedent in his powers.

5. he is very much contradicting himself because he's way to confident in himself, he thinks hes won the battle between Hal/Spectre so he doesn't care about them.. Parallax even said when he was going into Ganthet 'You said The Spectre was nothing compared to your power guardian, and Parallax still lives in You' if they did indeed mean for Ganthet to say hes more powerful then Spectre in the first 1 then they messed up bad. Parallax is telling Guardian he isn't as powerful as The Spectre and if he was as powerful as The Spectre why isn't he going to stop him now???? He can't stop him because he's not as powerful as The Spectre.

The Spectre has taken on a full powered Shazam in his realm while Spectre wasn't as powerful as he usually is, hes been fighting for 6 long months almost constantly, give the guy a break!

You have renewed my debating vigor! This is more like it! Only,... my back is aching from sitting in class for 3 hours and sitting here at my desk with this crappy chair for another 2 and a half hours listening to Lynyrd Skynyrd and e-mailing/posting. So I'll have at it tomorrow. If you could, it would be awesome if you posted my inconsistencies and own contradictions through your eyes and force me to be on the defensive also. Obviously, some are taken care of by the 5-6 topics we've been discussing. But if you think of anything else inconsistent with my opinion, make a whole list for me and I'll tackle it all tomorrow afternoon. Peace!

Ok, now to tackle this. I'm back and I'm gonna try to bolster my arguments my clear illustrations along with some scans. I'll tackle your arguments in succession:

#1 Why didn't Spectre seperate Parallax and Hal earlier?

Originally posted by kevdude
1. The main reason he couldn't burn Parallax out of Hals soul was because Hal was wanting redemption while Spectre was wanting Vengeance, "note before Hal/Parallax joined The Spectre he was about to burn Parallax out himself but that would have meant Hal going to hell and The Spectre didn't want that so he gave Hal a chance at redeeming himself and going to Heaven". The main chance Parallax had a chance to begin to fight Spectre was when he was joined along with him, after he was split from him again he wouldn't be a problem for Spectre and Spectre just ignored him while Parallax didn't even fight The Spectre while they was seperated.
Two reasons why I think this explanation of #1 is wrong. First, if you look at this collage of scans, Spectre clearly says he needs Hal's help and Parallax says, "I'm too powerful even for you" (which Spectre doesn't counter). This shows that Spectre didn't have the power to do it on his own in the first place:

Now the second reason I think you're wrong about premise #1, is because you discuss how Hal's search for redemption countered Spectre's need for vengeance and this dispute was the cause for Spectre's inability to seperate Parallax. This assumption is incorrect. Spectre doesn't say anything about redemption hindering him EVER. If anything, Parallax is too strong.

But the reason why neither Hal nor Spectre could win is because neither redemption nor vengeance is effective. The only thing that works is overcoming great fear with courage and willpower. Hal ultimately brings about the seperation of Parallax from his soul and the entire conflict into resolution by fighting fear. Do you see why the whole 'redemption vs vengeance' is pointless? In the end, those two elements, either together or alone have done NOTHING. Even Hal himself recognizes it. He doesn't say these next few things because he thinks he was redeemed. He doesn't say these things because he thinks the power of vengeance won... Just look at these scans where he actually dismisses redemption (soul-searching) and vengeance altogether!

Now for the next argument, I asked you: #2 Spectre was brawling with Capt. Marvel himself before the Shadowpact came in, why didn't he just shut off the source from Shazam at that time?

Originally posted by kevdude
2. I'm guessing from what Spectre said he just couldn't take Caption Marvels powers away because he was filled with so much magic, even the Spectre was amazed at how much magic he had protecting him.

The Spectre has taken on a full powered Shazam in his realm while Spectre wasn't as powerful as he usually is, hes been fighting for 6 long months almost constantly, give the guy a break!

Hmmm. Interesting. What was even more interesting was something Juntai posted after this thread was moved:
Originally posted by Juntai
And also in Day of Vengeance, JSA tie-in, Spectre snapped his fingers and shut off Black Adam, then banished Thunderbolt back to the 5th dimension, then killed Atom Smasher, effortlessly. If he can do it to Black Adam, he could have easily done to Captain Marvel too, right? It's the same shit right? Good. Why didn't he? God works in mysterious ways.
Very interesting. I don't have that comic, but Juntai doesn't seem to be lying at all. So in other words, your arguments are that since Spectre can best one of the Quintessential beings, he could best another, namely Ganthet. That certainly provided me food for thought. It was the best argument you guys came up with. However, I have an explanation. If you look at the next few scans, you see that Spectre beats Shazam because he, very simply put, cheats. Let me illustrate with scans of the fight.

Spectre is tired from battling day after day, and he gets a couple of nice zingers on Shazam, but Shazam puts Spectre down completely. Shazam even says that he senses no power in Spectre after the ass-whupping:

ZOUNDS! What is this? Spectre clearly has no power, but he arises?! Is his power purely limitless?! A super-powered Shazam cannot defeat the Spectre?! Crap, my 'Ganthet > Spectre' belief is weakening!