Ganthet vs Spectre! Once and for all!

And again, in Green Lantern Corps, "In Blackest Night", Zharan Pel encounters Doomsday ravaging a planet. Doomsday, never having met a Green Lantern before, responded with maddened glee at the challenge. Even when trapped inside a green energy cage, Doomsday is able to burst free and steal Pel's power ring. Pel's masters, the Guardians, intervene but only cause Doomsday to head for their planet, Oa, defeating all the emerald warriors trying to stop him en route. On Oa, the combined power of the Guardians is only able to force the beast to a standstill - until one Guardian sacrifices himself to remove Doomsday's power ring, enabling a final massive assault. In the destructive aftermath, the Guardians fail to notice that Doomsday is not destroyed, but is blasted through a hole in space ... where he lands on Calaton for the first time.only to be defeated by the energy being The Radiant.

Originally posted by Juntai
-- We know that many characters words aren't always true, but you're now saying that DC's Gods weren't aren't true.

Originally posted by Juntai
--He is a victim of a retcon multiple times since then, so current Spectre is NOT the same as it was back then. Back then he was considered a manifestation of vengeance, he was depowered in the 1987-1989 series of Spectre, and then had to earn his place back through that series.. fostforward until now, and we know that Spectre is indeed the Logoz, which is a piece of God, as it said itself, and has also been noted for many times throughout DC comics' history. Corrigan used to explain all the time that he could not do things because he couldn't go against the Will of God.[Which is what current Spectre, being the Logoz, is.] Hal, in his series unlocked the full potential of The Spectreforce in his series. Through the Legends of the DCU: Destroyer of World's series and his early apperances as Spectre, and all the way up until early in Spectre v.3 it was described many times that the Spectre was limiting him because if he was still crazy he do what he tried to as Parallax and that no one would be able to stop him.

Originally posted by Juntai
--He didn't say that he'd no longer exist, he alluded to the point that he would destroy himself to rid the universe of all things magic, but that still agrees with him being magic as you said-- but it doesn't seem to prove anything.

Originally posted by Juntai
You keep making me defend Spectre in this thread, because of simply a complete lack of knowing his character or reading his comics, but what it comes down to is that this thread is Ganthet vs Spectre, and Ganthet's position in the universe, and the feats his power has accomplished, is nothing next to The Spectre's.

Again I ask YOU, where do Ganthet and Spectre's feats even come close to matching up? Fact is, they don't. Spectre is shown regularly to be far beyond Ganthet's powers. No Guardians power matches up.

In Crisis on Infinite Earths, you see Guardians getting wiped out,... We seen Guardians getting killed in Doomsday Annual 1, The Tales of the Green Lantern Corp miniseries, COIE, The GL volume 2 Crisis crossover issues, and Appa Ali Apsa was killed in The Road Back. And in GL Issue 40, Krona's first story arc ,it is said that the Guardians merely figured out a way to slow the aging process, but weren't immortal. Also, Krona himself killed many Guardians. When was the last time you seen Spectre killed?

If you want to continue trying to understand Spectre, by all means keep posting or ask me in PM or something, but it should be clear that Spectre is far greater than him from comic appearances and feats alone.

1. Power of Guardians can recreate universe 1. Power of Spectre can recreate universe
2. Power of Guardians can defeat Parallax 2. Power of Spectre can't defeat Parallax
3. Power of Guardians works in anti-matter u 3. Power of Spectre impotent in anti-matter u

That's the first crux of my argument. Pretty much unassailable and you avoid the obvious answer to this that can easily resolve your beliefs and these facts: Being a piece of God does not mean pure omnipotence. This piece of God's power is manifested as magic and sometimes it doesn't work. He's still a piece of God, but limited. You may scoff at this notion of limitations but you already concede an obvious limitation in the first place. He is only a piece of God. Surely powerful,... but as all-encompassing and omnipotent as the whole God? Obviously not.

Second, to address the belief that since none of the Guardians actually did the feats like recreating the universe and whatnot is ridiculous. Why? Because the Power of the Guardians comes solely from them. It is their personal power. The Central Battery's power comes from the Guardians themselves. As such, if they wanted to, they could perform those feats. Of course, they never did. Why? Call it non-interference, who cares. As long as we know that they could do it, that it is within their power, it doesn't detract from my argument. To put it simply, guys with my strength can rip paper apart with bare hands. But I never actually ripped apart paper. So even though I have the strength, simply because I never ripped paper before, we must conclude I can't rip paper. Utterly ridiculous, which is how some of your accusations sound. You should drop the whole, no Guardian ever actually personally recreated the universe. The fact is, we know they could.

Guardians get *****-slapped all over the place? An overstatement. Yes, some of them have died. But you misinterpret 'Crisis.' None of the Guardians were killed by the Anti-Monitor. They are only ambushed and held in stasis by his power. Some sacrifice themselves later on to empower Guy Gardner to carry out a mission in the anti-matter universe. I now have 'Crisis' on my laptop. 😉 Additionally, when the Guardians were slaughtered by Hal in 'Emerald Twilight,' they allowed him to do so. They didn't even fight him. More of that non-interference crap going around. Doomsday killed a Guardian? Okay, I believe you. I don't care what context. It's a fact. Apparently, I can kill Spectre as long as I've got the Spear of Destiny myself. Nobody's done it, but its possible, therefore the Guardian's mortality is not an issue since Spectre can be killed as well. The fact that a bunch of Guardians have been killed and Spectre never has been is evidence against the Guardians? Dude... [/i]I've been cutting down trees. Me and my friends cut down a whole bunch in forest A. Nobody has ever cut trees down in forest B. From that fact, we must conclude that the trees in forest B are stronger than forest A.[/i] C'mon... I don't mean to insult your intelligence with these simple exercises in fallacy, but you keep using them.

The way I see it, this is the way our debate has stacked: 1) I've shown that the Power of the Guardians can match the greatest feats of the Spectre (creating the universe, it doesn't get bigger than that frankly). 2) I've also shown how the Power of the Guardians is "better" than the Spectre's by showing how Spectre has been limited in the very recent past (you have not come up with a logical explanation to this). 3) Your argument about personal feats and mortality is off-point because you're misapplying logic. 4) I've resolved how a piece of God can be limited and fare worse than a creation of God. That's it, man. And before you go off believing that I am dissing the Spectre or trying to shoot down his status as a piece of God. Let me repeat, "I am not." I don't diss the Spectre and I believe he is a piece of God. However, recently his power's manifestation is still limited in ways the Power of the Guardian's isn't. Simple as that. I explained how he could be a piece of God and still be limited. Your belief that these limitations don't apply, fails in the evidence I've provided. Even after the retcons! Face it. I've weathered the best you've thrown at me and you haven't fared as well. How do I some up with a zany idea that Ganthet > Spectre? Well, their powers have both recreated universes (greatest feat we can think of),... but lo and behold, the Spectre's power is limited in ways Ganthet's isn't! Therefore, I conclude that Ganthet > Spectre. What is illogical about that? And if it isn't illogical, but you're still not convinced, then you need to explain why Spectre's power is limited in ways Ganthet's isn't. This is really where you've got to hit me. But I think we both know, it really is unassailable.

I don't have time to break it all down as I have to run off to work in the next 4 minutes, but...
Not just creation of UNIVERSE though, Spectre is accredited with the creation of the MULTIVERSE that Ganthet exists within, in the Guide to the DC Universe. See the difference?
And no Guardian has recreated the universe -- even if it IS a possibility, they never have, so the feat cannot be added to their side. Like I said, Spectre has ALL the feats stacked to his side through all of comic history.

Originally posted by Juntai
I don't have time to break it all down as I have to run off to work in the next 4 minutes, but...
Not just creation of UNIVERSE though, Spectre is accredited with the creation of the MULTIVERSE that Ganthet exists within, in the Guide to the DC Universe. See the difference?
And no Guardian has recreated the universe -- even if it IS a possibility, they never have, so the feat cannot be added to their side. Like I said, Spectre has ALL the feats stacked to his side through all of comic history.

And as far as I'm concerned, this Ganthet existing within while Spectre existing without is weak also. Both the Guardians and Spectre are unique beings. Similarly to Spectre, Ganthet and the Guardians never had a bunch of mirror selves in other multiverses like the rest of the heroes did. They are similarly unique. Let us say that you might be on to something in this distinction. But let me approach it thusly, had the Guardians rallied and confronted Anti-Monitor and won and recreated the universe themselves, then your argument is moot. But we will never know because that is not the way it happened. These events and feats that you use, are useless in our debate on a simple level: we don't know how either would have fared in that same situation.

Did Spectre absorb the Suneater and reignite the sun and undo all the damage on the Earth during 'Final Night' like Hallax did with the Power of the Guardians? No. But he might have. So it's not fair for me to stack this against you.

Did Spectre ever empower countless simple mortals with near limitless power and form a corps to bring order to the entire universe? No. But he might be able to. So its not fair for me to stack this against you.

Did Spectre ever cause the creation of Entropy and cut the universe's lifespan a billion years? No. But he might be able to. So its not fair for me to stack this against you.

So what is fair to mention? Easy. Acts and/or feats in same or similar situations that the two share! Power of Guardians recreated the universe and so did the Spectre. Power of Guardians held up well against Parallax, but Spectre's power did not. Power of Guardians holds up well in the anti-matter universe, but Spectre's power does not. That's why the list is short on my side and you keep spouting off stuff that isn't even addressable. Don't mistake my short list for vulnerability. I'm attempting to create an even and fair playing field. I'm not going to stack the three additional feats against you because Spectre never had a chance to perform those feats! Just like Ganthet and the Guardians never had a chance to throw down with the Monitor! Stick to the issue: Spectre's power is limited in ways the Guardians' isn't. And when you finally realize the inevitable and unassailable truth of that issue, maybe you will concede that on a logical level, my arguments are stronger than yours whether you like it or not.

EDIT: Lastly,... when did Spectre create a multiverse? The multiverse ended in 'Crisis.' I think you typed it wrong. And in essence, it was really the Oan, Krona who created the multiverse.

1. Power of Guardians can recreate universe(the guardians never have, Parallax was destroying barriers that was keeping the universe together then remaking the timeline at Vanishing Point) 1. Power of Spectre can recreate universe
2. Power of Guardians can defeat Parallax 2. Power of Spectre can't defeat Parallax (thats wrong and i dont know why u keep saying it 🙁)
3. Power of Guardians works in anti-matter u 3. Power of Spectre impotent in anti-matter u (thats true but magic/power works different in that universe then in the correct u).

The Spectre has also gone up against beings more powerful then Parallax before and are beyond the Universe, Michael and The Beast who is Gods only equal. Parallax and Ganthet are not on those power ranks.

The combined forces of the Guardians couldn't kill Doomsday, what chance is Ganthet going to have?? None dude, come on u say ur not anti-Spectre and ur reading everything we are saying and thinking about it, but ARE U REALLY?? Oh and the Spear of Destiny can kill anyone Yup Anyone. Spectre can die, but it takes alot of fighting and punishment to do it! Or when all the magic in the Universe is gone then Spectre won't be needed and will kill himself, but I dont think thats ever going to happen and if it does it will take forever.

Krona never created the Multiverse, he caused it yes but didn't create it. 2 seperate things. Watching the creation of the Universe messed up the Universe, and created the Multiverse which the Multiverse was never suppose to happen anyway.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
... we all know that Spectre tried fighting Parallax with vengeance. He says it himself below, "I had hoped... to cast vengeance upon it (Parallax) for all the death and fear it spread throughout God's universe." Obviously he failed. At that point, I think it should be obvious to the reader, at least to Hal, that you cannot fight fear with vengeance. Even Spectre couldn't judge Parallax. This is explicit in the storyline because Parallax was gaining in strength the whole time all three were connected together. These are the reasons why I believe that any of your ideas stemming from Hal switching to vengeance are incorrect. I think its a stretch and contradicts several important flashbacks, actions and conversations which are not as ambiguous as the 'Ganthet vs. Spectre garbage.'

Again, ask yourself this question, does what I state, make sense? Here, we have a story of a hero overcoming great fear. He recognizes his greatest fear and fights against a cosmic entity of living fear that threatens the universe. It all comes back to what makes a Green Lantern a Green Lantern and why Hal is the greatest Green Lantern. Abin Sur himself said in the famous origin that "You will overcome great fear." Everything comes back to a beginning, or as aptly titled 'Rebirth.' If this was all about redemption, then 'Emerald Twilight' would have been the end of it. If this was all about vengeance, Hal as the Spectre would have been the final chapter. But its about neither, its about the courage of a hero. Its a simple poetry and quite thematic at times and Geoff Johns pulled it off very well. I hope that I've convinced you that this reading of the story is the most consistent...

So now... was Spectre ineffectual against Parallax? I believe there is evidence. Forget everything we know of DCU. Act like you've been reading Marvel the whole time and you pick up and start reading 'Green Lantern: Rebirth' as your first comic. First off, Spectre stated his plan was to connect with Hal and burn out Parallax and cast vengeance on him. As is obvious just from the history of when Spectre connected to Hal in the first place, Spectre never followed through on this purpose. Obviously, it follows because he couldn't. That is clear evidence that Spectre was ineffectual against Parallax. Secondly, Parallax's plans to manipulate Hal and the Spectre's powers never abated until Hal started fighting him. That is more evidence. Thirdly, while this is all going on, Parallax states he is too powerful for Spectre and this struggle is depicted as Parallax ripping apart Spectre's corporeal form. How would a first time reader see this? Exactly, as more evidence. Fourthly, Spectre himself asked Hal to help him! When you ask for help, that implicitly means you can't do it on your own. He obviously abandoned his original plan and asked for help. More clear evidence. Hal begins tearing apart Parallax's hold on his own, and is nearly free of him and Spectre helps him after Hal screams for it. More evidence that it really took what Hal did to turn things around and more evidence that Spectre didn't. If Spectre had been tearing up Parallax from the inside the whole time and Hal provided some last irg of power, I could interpret that as Spectre doing most of the work. But it didn't happen that way, in fact the exact opposite happens.

On that evidence, which is solely found within the struggles in the trinity of Spectrehallax, it appears evident that Spectre's power was ineffectual against Parallax. Again, adding to that, it was Hal embracing his greatest fear (watching his dad die) and conquering it, so that fear in any form could never affect him, that truly undid the bond that Parallax had. Again, Parallax's very nature is to leech onto an entity's fears. Because Hal conquered his greatest fear, Parallax could not hold onto Hal. This is the same exact reason why the 5 vets of the GL Corps can overcome the traditional yellow weakness.

Now, I remember your interpretation of this down to the letter. You said it was Hal who refused vengeance that rendered Spectre's power ineffectual. And the switch to vengeance ignited the Spectre's power and Spectre himself was truly responsible for separating Parallax. This could reasonably explain why Spectre never did anything until Hal got into it, and why Parallax had his way with them before Hal switched. Although it never explains why Spectre waited so long to simply tell Hal this until the sh1t hit the fan. BUT... your biggest flaw in this theory, is that the entire theme of conquering one's greatest fear has no place in this interpretation. All Hal really needed to do was think about vengeance and be wrathful against Parallax. Yet, it is clear in his flashbacks and monologues and subsequent conversations, he doesn't dwell on vengeance AT ALL to fight Parallax. He embraces and conquers great fear to render Parallax's influence ineffectual and uses willpower to defeat Parallax both from within and without. If Hal switching to vengeance was the key to victory, wouldn't you expect Hal to think or have monologues about vengeance as a solution? He even dismisses vengeance before and after the separation? You tried to explain this huge flaw as follows:

Originally posted by kevdude
Isn't that what Hal did??? He realized how to fight Parallax using Vengeance. Part of using Vengeance is Fighting and Facing Fear, Face To Face not running away from it.

If there's no evidence within Hal's flashbacks and monologues before the separation that Hal was switching to vengeance, it probably means that he didn't consider a switch to vengeance as the solution. Since he thought about fear and conquering it and stating fear doesn't have a hold on you, isn't it obvious that was the solution Hal came up with? Given Parallax's nature as a fear leech and Hal's subsequent advice to everyone on how to fight Parallax, there is clear evidence this was Hal's solution. Given that, and observing the ultimate flaw in your theory, I am confident that my interpretation of Spectre being ineffectual holds up. And since we've seen the Guardians fare well against Parallax historically, I've been using that as evidence that in a similar situation with the same enemy, Guardians did better than the Spectre. In fact, Spectre couldn't do much at all. Similar to how his power can't work in the anti-matter universe whereas the Guardians' does.

Ok dude that first paragraph where u think ur right, ur not understanding it correctly. when Kyle was on that planet, the beings on it was scared to see him and his GL Ring. Because they knew the universe was about to end (something that hasn't happened YET). the Guardians of the Universe knew they had to stop it from happening and gathered Willpower while Parallax gathered Fear. they both couldn't destroy each other, but the Guardians was able to IMPRISON him, so not really winning but stalling him for a very long time.

About if me or anyone else was a Marvel reader and just picked up DC Rebirth and read it, if they really READ the comic correctly they would understand it like others on this forum do. It wouldn't really matter if i was knew to comics anyway so thats irrelevant.

Also u don't need to show me pictures of Rebirth, I have the comics in my hands. Why do u show Parallax doing that to Spectre??? trying to make me think Ganthet > Spectre?? Not happening. Why don't u show a picture of Spectre kicking Parallax out of Hal and Hal and Parallax just falling away from Spectre like he was nothing??? Oh wait a minute that wouldn't be good. Why don't u show The Spectre standing with the JSA/JLA and the Corps/w Ganthet and Parallax being kicked out of both Hal and Spectre when Parallax doesn't even dare do anything to The Spectre???? I could imagine if Ganthet didn't need the help of 5 GL's and stood there acting like Parallax was nothing to him, u would be showing pictures of that for sure!

About the end of the universe thing, they could be talking about Infinite Crisis and Parallax being the bad guy, but we don't know yet there is a few others it could be, Imperiex Prime or Anti-Monitor is others it could be.

Id like to say what i think happened with Hal/Parallax/Spectre.

I do think that over time, Parallax influenced Spectre and the way he did things. Most of the time, Hal had control of what he did and as time went on Parallax started putting his own little twist on things. Spectre=Vengeance. Everytime he does seeks it, he creates FEAR in others. Because Parallax lives/powers from that, it made a perfect bond. Like Parallax stated, he was a part of Hal's soul as well as Spectre. In the beginning, Spectre asked Hal to help him fight Parallax because Spectre could only do so much with Hals soul. Hal was the one who was to make the decision on who would be in control. Les remember that Hal never knew the story about Parallax the entity. Spectre said that when he binded to Hal, he hoped to burn out Parallax. That could never be because Spectre=Vengeance which=Fear. Its not because Parallax is more powerful that Spectre. Its like using fuel to put out a fire.

Now with Ganthet being more powerful than Spectre? I dont believe it. I think the Guardin was just talking smack when he said Spectres powersw dwarf the guardians. Do the guardians have the ability to change reality? Just wondering. Why didnt they kill Hal when he first went bad? Ive always wondered that. When Parallax took over Ganthet, i believe he was hoping to be a more powerful being than Spectre which clearly wasnt the case. Maybe because the battle between him and the GL's seemed so easy.

Hal needed to know about Parallax and help Spectre fight him with Vengeance. right after Hal was freed from Parallax and Spectre he told the Spectre to destroy Parallax, Spectre told him not to boss him around and God was calling him home (parallax didn't dare bother Spectre while they was both separated from each other). Onedumb is having trouble understanding Rebirth even though its now 8 pages long and everything has been answered already.

You have to remember that Spectre wouldnt be able to do anything to Parallax only because hes based off dealing Vengeance which causes fear in others.

Like Parallax said, Spectre was a host to him, like Hal was a host to Spectre. As Spectre, everytime Hal delivered vengeance, that would cause others to have fear which fueled Parallax imo. Prime example was Black Hand. Also, when Parallax took over Ganthet, notice how he say "Hungry for you. Victims of fear." "And yet...I sense a worshipper." "A desciple."
Then it shows Batman. Because he like Spectre delivers vengeance which causes fear in the hearts of others.

I still dont think Ganthet is more powerful than Spectre.

Didn't realise that till now, always thought he was talking about Sinestro, but it does look more like he was talking about Batman there and not Sinestro.

Spectre does > Parallax though, he coulda gotten rid of Parallax but that would just ruin Rebirth and Hal's return, so they just made him leave saying "Gods calling me home, lataz".

^ I hear that lol.

Parallax didn't use the Guardians power to try and recreate the universe, that's why you can't use it. He used the ANTI MONITORS power, having gone back to the dawn of time. He obviously felt the Battery's power was not enough.

Here's the thing.
Doomsday killed Guardians-- Could he kill Spectre?
GREEN LANTERS killed a Guardian -- But the entire Corp lost to Spectre in DOV when Hal came back from Purgatory and recreated them.
Anti Monitor WIPED OUT the Guardians -- but lost to Spectre.
The Guardians were again wiped out when Hal Jordan/Parallax came to OA and took the Battery. Spectre defeated him.

Let's not forget that in the 80's version, the Spectre was depowered and really showed to be no more powerful than Doctor Fate, he ran around sending demons to hell with John Constantine, who would later spawn his own book.

The Guardians are UNABLE to timetravel. Krona had to build a device to look back at the Anti-Monitor.
Current Spectre, although not 80's version, time is non-linear, it holds no meaning. In Dead Again, Hal Jordan Spectre was the one who SENT Deadman in the Crisis, in the pic you showed back a page. To make sure he was birthed later as Spectre. In the series, Deadman saw Spectre as Ranma Kushna[sp?], which is how he percieves God itself.

Judging by the way Spectre and Kyle as ION talked, Spectre still came across as infinitely more powerful than ION was, who had the power of OA, the power of the Anti-Monitor, and multiplied it with the power of Oblivion.

Did Spectre ever empower countless simple mortals with near limitless power and form a corps to bring order to the entire universe? No. But he might be able to. So its not fair for me to stack this against you.

Did Spectre absorb the Suneater and reignite the sun and undo all the damage on the Earth during 'Final Night' like Hallax did with the Power of the Guardians? No. But he might have. So it's not fair for me to stack this against you.

Ugh, I'm done on this one for the morning, got presents to wrap. Your go.

Originally posted by kevdude
Ok dude that first paragraph where u think ur right, ur not understanding it correctly. when Kyle was on that planet, the beings on it was scared to see him and his GL Ring. Because they knew the universe was about to end (something that hasn't happened YET). the Guardians of the Universe knew they had to stop it from happening and gathered Willpower while Parallax gathered Fear. they both couldn't destroy each other, but the Guardians was able to IMPRISON him, so not really winning but stalling him for a very long time.

Originally posted by kevdude
Also u don't need to show me pictures of Rebirth, I have the comics in my hands. Why do u show Parallax doing that to Spectre??? trying to make me think Ganthet > Spectre?? Not happening. Why don't u show a picture of Spectre kicking Parallax out of Hal and Hal and Parallax just falling away from Spectre like he was nothing??? Oh wait a minute that wouldn't be good. Why don't u show The Spectre standing with the JSA/JLA and the Corps/w Ganthet and Parallax being kicked out of both Hal and Spectre when Parallax doesn't even dare do anything to The Spectre???? I could imagine if Ganthet didn't need the help of 5 GL's and stood there acting like Parallax was nothing to him, u would be showing pictures of that for sure!

Originally posted by kevdude
About the end of the universe thing, they could be talking about Infinite Crisis and Parallax being the bad guy, but we don't know yet there is a few others it could be, Imperiex Prime or Anti-Monitor is others it could be.

"The Guardians didn't defeat Parallax in their first encounter?" "The key to beating Parallax was vengeance?" "To use vengeance, you have to fight and face fear?" None of that doesn't sound wrong to you at all?!?! CMON! JUST ADMIT IT! Your theories work on some levels but crumble completely on others! Goodness sakes! Since when has the Spectre ever had to fight and face fear to cast punishment on any of his victims in the past?!!?! GAAWWWWWDDDD!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by jrodslam
Id like to say what i think happened with Hal/Parallax/Spectre.

I do think that over time, Parallax influenced Spectre and the way he did things. Most of the time, Hal had control of what he did and as time went on Parallax started putting his own little twist on things. Spectre=Vengeance. Everytime he does seeks it, he creates FEAR in others. Because Parallax lives/powers from that, it made a perfect bond. Like Parallax stated, he was a part of Hal's soul as well as Spectre. In the beginning, Spectre asked Hal to help him fight Parallax because Spectre could only do so much with Hals soul. Hal was the one who was to make the decision on who would be in control. Les remember that Hal never knew the story about Parallax the entity. Spectre said that when he binded to Hal, he hoped to burn out Parallax. That could never be because Spectre=Vengeance which=Fear. Its not because Parallax is more powerful that Spectre. Its like using fuel to put out a fire.

Now with Ganthet being more powerful than Spectre? I dont believe it. I think the Guardin was just talking smack when he said Spectres powersw dwarf the guardians. Do the guardians have the ability to change reality? Just wondering. Why didnt they kill Hal when he first went bad? Ive always wondered that. When Parallax took over Ganthet, i believe he was hoping to be a more powerful being than Spectre which clearly wasnt the case. Maybe because the battle between him and the GL's seemed so easy.

After Hal killed Sinestro, the Guardians chose simply to not act and committed mass suicide. Really nothing more than plot device to allow Hal an actual chance to obtain the power rather than any real logical determination.

You think its clear that Ganthellax's battle was much easier? Dude, they're in a veritable sh1tstorm! But Hal leads the others to fight Parallax the one way he's vulnerable, by not allowing fear to effect them. I think its plainly obvious that Ganthellax is more powerful than Spectrehallax for two reasons: 1) Storywise, its just stupid to have your climax involve a lessening of stakes and power 2) Artistrywise, Ganthellax's form is hella bigger than Spectrehallax's form and more tumultuous. Just look at a comparison, which one friggin looks more dangerous and powerful? Look at the size of the flailing heroes in each panel just for reference!!!!!

Originally posted by Juntai
Parallax didn't use the Guardians power to try and recreate the universe, that's why you can't use it. He used the ANTI MONITORS power, having gone back to the dawn of time. He obviously felt the Battery's power was not enough.

Here's the thing.
Doomsday killed Guardians-- Could he kill Spectre?
GREEN LANTERS killed a Guardian -- But the entire Corp lost to Spectre in DOV when Hal came back from Purgatory and recreated them.
Anti Monitor WIPED OUT the Guardians -- but lost to Spectre.
The Guardians were again wiped out when Hal Jordan/Parallax came to OA and took the Battery. Spectre defeated him.

And again, I already addressed the death of Guardians in my last post. They can die, its happened. Spectre can die also, it hasn't happened yet. You make it sound like Doomsday pummeled the Guardian to death. Not true. The Guardian killed himself to get rid of Doomsday. You also make it sound like Anti-Monitor killed the Guardians. Not true. He doesn't kill any of them in his sneak attack, I already explained he just keeps them in stasis. And again you make it sound like Hal wiped out the Guardians himself. Not true. Maybe you forgot, but the Guardians committed suicide.

Originally posted by Juntai
The Guardians are UNABLE to timetravel. Krona had to build a device to look back at the Anti-Monitor.
Current Spectre, although not 80's version, time is non-linear, it holds no meaning. In Dead Again, Hal Jordan Spectre was the one who SENT Deadman in the Crisis, in the pic you showed back a page. To make sure he was birthed later as Spectre. In the series, Deadman saw Spectre as Ranma Kushna[sp?], which is how he percieves God itself.

Originally posted by Juntai
Judging by the way Spectre and Kyle as ION talked, Spectre still came across as infinitely more powerful than ION was, who had the power of OA, the power of the Anti-Monitor, and multiplied it with the power of Oblivion.

I believe he did one better, by creating a version of himself on every life filled planet across the multiverse. Literally billions of selves.

No, he single handedly kept the Earth alive in his final night conflict by spreading his power and consciousness over the Earth to keep every human, hero and blade of grass alive instead. And Hallax also still had the power of the Anti-Monitor.

Are u understanding what im saying onedumb??? I'm agreeing that they SLOWED HIM DOWN but DIDNT STOP HIM YET from supposedly destroying the Universe. If thats defeating him for you thats fine, in a way I agree with u they did defeat him, but you also have to ADMIT that at 1 POINT IN TIME PARALLAX WILL ALMOST DESTROY THE UNIVERSE(IT hasn't happened YET) There is a difference there dude, understand??

If Spectre started the process of ripping through Parallax but then Hals soul showed up and LITERALLY KICked out Parallax and Spectre from HIMSELF then ID GIVE HAL THE PROPS, BUT THAT DIDNT HAPPEN STOP BEING SO PRO PARALLAX/GANTHET!!! ITS ANNOYING

the last 2 paragraphs are amazing how u got them everything mixed up there. I was saying, Are the beings talking about INFINITE CRISIS THAT IS COMING UP NOW??? OR is Infinite Crisis going to have another bad guy that has NOTHING TO DO WITH PARALLAX AND IMPERIEX PRIME OR ANTI-MONITOR IS THE BAD GUYS!!!! 🤪

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm sick now. "Vengeance=Fear?" What the hell is in the drinking water where you guys live?! The sheer stupidity of that statement has somehow blinded you from the obvious problem with it. If vengeance=fear, then how could the Spectre ever even helped to separate Hal and Parallax in issue #4?!!? The application of vengeance=fear would have made Parallax stronger! <---- WTF?! 😘

Theres no need to throw insults. You have to realize that peoples opinions and views are going to be different from yours. Thats why its called a debate.

Vengeance does = fear in a way. Batman strikes fear in the hearts of those who do wrong by delivering vengeance. Spectre did the same thing. Good reason for Parallax to stay hidden while getting more powerful at the same time. In Rebirth #1, John says "Hal was the man without fear. And whats the Batman when youre not afraid of him?" Hence the reason Parallax said in #5, "I sence a worshipper. A disciple." Showing that there is a strong connection between delivering vengeance and fear.

When Spectre binded with Hal, he mentioned how he "HOPED" that hed have the ability to burn Parallax out. Hope is the key word there. Meaning that Spectre wasnt sure if hed be able to do it considering Parallax has already infected Hals soul. You also mentioned that in #4 Spectre helped Hal separate from Parallax. If you go back to #3, youd notice that Spectre asked Hal to help HIM first. Meaning that he needed Hal to help him get Parallax out hence Spectre saying "You must help me fight it." Parallax indeed got stronger over time because obviously Spectre couldnt even do it alone. Parallax even said that he was too powerful for Spectre to free Hals soul of him. He then stated to Spectre "Your cries for vengeance against me FADE." Also meaning Spectre ws growing weaker. That is why in #4 it was Hal who repeatedly asked for help from Spectre against Parallax.

Spectre who was weak at the time couldnt do anything to Parallax once he was free. Why do i say that? Because in #3 Spectre was saying how he wanted to cast vengeance against Parallax, yet when he was free in #4, there was no vengeance casts by him against Parallax.

Anyway, I think completely undoing the damage and absorbing the Suneater is better than merely keeping the Earth alive. And as far as I can tell, Hallax at that point never wielded any chronal energy or the "Anti-Monitor's" power which I again think you're wrong about. I'm pretty sure that power was drained in 'Zero Hour' to create the universe. And I could argue that since the Suneater was not an evildoing being, it was outside the scope of Spectre's direct hand, so his power could never be brought to bear against it. But hey, you know what, just like a lot of the stuff you're posting... it's all speculation or off-the-point.

Stick to feats in similar or same situations.

Likewise, if we limit characters to specific feats we completely remove the dynamics of that character. I'm sure if I placed Superman side by side with Spectre and see who's punches are more effective and used it as a judge of strength, it'll appear on strip that Superman is indeed stronger than Spectre, when we know for a fact that he -isn't- as Spectre has grown to the size of galaxies and moved planets with his fingers.

What it comes down to is you need to go Ebay, drop 20 bucks or something on some Spectre, and see what power really is. Or just download them, or whatever.

After reading most of OneDumbGo's posts I ask you to leave this forum. 😐