Ganthet vs Spectre! Once and for all!

I'll hit you up in the morning, on most of this...

but Spectre slept after remaking the universes in Crisis and banishing the Anti-Monitor, because the soul that was attached to him was separated from his body.
You don't think it was the Spectre that did it in the Crisis? Yet the blinding flash of light that destroyed and remade the universe... came out Spectre's hand. lol.

Spectre had recreated reality a number of times, as I've pointed out. And even some I didn't.
Ganthet has never shown that level of power.

Originally posted by Juntai
I'll hit you up in the morning, on most of this...

but Spectre slept after remaking the universes in Crisis and banishing the Anti-Monitor, because the soul that was attached to him was separated from his body.
You don't think it was the Spectre that did it in the Crisis? Yet the blinding flash of light that destroyed and remade the universe... came out Spectre's hand. lol.

Spectre had recreated reality a number of times, as I've pointed out. And even some I didn't.
Ganthet has never shown that level of power.

I've shown multiple instances where the Power of the Guardians has shown the same or similar levels of power of destroying and recreating the universe as well. So I don't understand how your using Spectre's feats to trump this. You also act like Ganthet can't do this. Let me ask you one question, "The Power of the Guardians... whose power is that?" It's the Guardian's power! If the Guardian's power has been used by other people to destroy and remake and do all sorts of other high end feats, why do you act like Ganthet can't accomplish all that? It's HIS power! It's the Guardian's power! Just because Ganthet was never so reckless or irresponsible to remake and remold universes doesn't mean he can't! What kind of logic is this? It's like saying that Hulk can't beat up 5-yr old lil Timmy, because he never beat up 5-yr old lil Timmy. I've shown you how the Power of the Guardians has been used to accomplish high end feats like the Spectre. And yet, you act like the Guardians and especially Ganthet can't do that. How can you possibly ignore that the Power of the Guardians IS IN FACT, the Guardian's power?! The friggin name of the power is just SO obvious!

The fact that you rely on Ganthet never personally doing stuff like this leads me to believe that you cannot assail my other arguments and proofs and are relying on this as your last bastion. You never counter the feats that the Power of the Guardians has accomplished where the Spectre's power couldn't. Namely, effectivness in Anti-matter universe and the defeat of Parallax. So until you address that, I will continue to seriously doubt your interpretations of things. I have tackled EVERY single objection you have posted. You have not done the same.

BTW, that's not entirely true. I didn't tackle one interesting objection. You said Spectre turned off Ganthet's power. Very interesting. I asked for context, you never gave it. But for one last time, I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and take your word for it. I will assume he merely snapped his fingers and shut em off. It really does sound like Spectre is indeed stronger than Ganthet if he could do that. But hey... I know a being that has shut off Spectre's power also. As easy as a snap of her fingers. Black Alice. Not only did she shut em off, she used em for herself! So I guess by your run of logic, one little teenage girl named Black Alice is now the undisputed most powerful being in the universe. She shut off the Spectre who shut off Ganthet. She must be friggin God. Yeah,... right. Warpin reality and preventing access to power isn't just reserved for the strongest beings in the DCUniverse. I hope you abandon this ridiculous line of logic.

Now I wait for your counters and please post some scans for stories that I did not read, because I'm not taking what you say at face value anymore. They were interesting, and even though I haven't read the stories AND gave you the benefit of the doubt, I've still completely and utterly rebutted everything you've posted. I wait for you to attempt to do the same. Start with Spectre being worthless in the Anti-matter universe and Spectre being worthless against Parallax.

SO by your interpretation of this event, Hal Jordan does not want to go to Heaven??? Does that really make sense?? Who wouldn't want to go to Heaven??? Nobody. You say he is trying to find a way away from the light and hes resisting the pull??? Not really, Hal is just relaxing and flying stretching out his arms waiting to be embraced by God. If he was as you say resisting the pull wouldn't he just have to look at Ganthets ball of light to leave Gods light and go back to his body like he did AFTER Abin and his dad talked with him? They was the ones that changed Hals mind. I don't need to see a picture of it, I have it in my lap lol. This is the correct interpretation of that event. We do agree that Hal does do what Ganthet wants him to do but its not Ganthet that was the reason Hal returned at all...

About Ganthet, If I was Hal Jordan I wouldn't listen to Ganthet either, look at there history. Ganthet didn't help Jordan when he most needed him (after Coast City was destroyed, not saying to try to make it seem like nothing ever happened but at least acting like a real friend which Ganthet and the Guardians didn't do). Ollie even tells Kyle (or someone else don't remember right now) that he doesn't trust Ganthet, so how would Hal feel about him???

Why is it taking so long for you to understand this???? Most of these questions have already been answered correctly, just open your mind up to the possibility that Spectre does > Ganthet.. You keep saying your not anti-spectre but how you act you seem you don't want to waste your time with it, you just want to prove Ganthet > Spectre. I've read Rebirth many times and I know how they mean what is put in Rebirth.

Also about the Anti-Monitors powers, he was being powered by hundreds if not thousands of universes dieing, The Anti-Monitor would be foolish to go up against The Spectre at the beginning, he would lose! That is why DC saved the big battle for last almost The Anti-Monitor took out The Guardians right at the beginning, how can they be so powerful so smart if they can't come back when they are really really needed?

I do not interpret the blinding flash of light as Spectre consciously destroying the universe and molding it into single DCUniverse. The multiverse is being destroyed by a chain reaction caused by viewing the dawn of time. It looks to me that he was struggling to prevent the destruction of the multiverse and the single DCUniverse was the incidental result of the struggle.

--Wrong, because the viewing of the dawn of time, happened years earlier in DC comics. It didn't destroy the universe, and it didn't almost destroy the universe.. it just created an END of time. Where it loops and starts over. Anti-Monitor was trying to go BACK to this moment, which happened EARLIER, and BECOME the hand, but Spectre fought back, and his blinding light coming from HIS HAND, SHATTERED AND REACREATED THE UNIVERSE. Whether he declared it not, that eminating white light that did this feat, came out of his hand, that is undisputable. "The energy explodes inside him!" Did you ever actually read, rather than just looking at the pictures? It's obvious he shattered and recreated the universe.

You'll also see Doctor Fate claiming, that if Spectre killed Anti-Monitor outright, that in that instant, every hero he was drawing power from would die. [Which was what like... every DC hero and villain? lol.] There's your reason on why Spectre DIDN'T do that.

Like I said, read the preview for Infinite Crisis 5. Some of the most powerful beings in the universe can't stop what's coming. They have to beg Spectre to help.

"and Spectre being worthless against Parallax."
In Zero Hour, between the page when you see Spectre get a hole in his chest, and what like a page or two after that? You'll notice, Hal didn't do anything with his power between these points but rather was fighting hand to hand, punches and headbutts, and a bubble comes off of Kyle's head. "He's completely drained, now's our chance!"
Then Spectre pops back up says "Justice is satisfied." and recreates the universe.

lol

You'll also notice through the fight people are begging Spectre not to kill him.

How about we talk about how Ganthet ran and hid from Hal during this whole ordeal? Or how all the guardians couldn't stop him from entering the battery? Or all but Ganthet sacrifices themselves and said to LEAVE and usher in a new era? They knew Ganthet wasn't powerful enough for Hal. And that was BEFORE he took in the Anti-Monitor's power as well.

lol.

In Day of Judgement, Azmodel/Spectre turned off the power of the entire Quintessence with a wave of his hand-- Shazam, Odin, Zues, Ganthet, Highfather. These guys are some of the universes largest sources of magic. Hal also came back in this series, led from purgatory.. he was still crazy powerful. He recreated the Corp to fight alongside him. Spectre looked at him and turned him into glass and shattered him. He was still running off of Parallax's energy at this point. Everyone stood aside so he could try to take on Spectre, and he just owned like a *****. lol.

Originally posted by Juntai
--Wrong, because the viewing of the dawn of time, happened years earlier in DC comics. It didn't destroy the universe, and it didn't almost destroy the universe.. it just created an END of time. Where it loops and starts over. Anti-Monitor was trying to go BACK to this moment, which happened EARLIER, and BECOME the hand, but Spectre fought back, and his blinding light coming from HIS HAND, SHATTERED AND REACREATED THE UNIVERSE. Whether he declared it not, that eminating white light that did this feat, came out of his hand, that is undisputable. "The energy explodes inside him!" Did you ever actually read, rather than just looking at the pictures? It's obvious he shattered and recreated the universe.

You'll also see Doctor Fate claiming, that if Spectre killed Anti-Monitor outright, that in that instant, every hero he was drawing power from would die. [Which was what like... every DC hero and villain? lol.] There's your reason on why Spectre DIDN'T do that.

Like I said, read the preview for Infinite Crisis 5. Some of the most powerful beings in the universe can't stop what's coming. They have to beg Spectre to help.

"and Spectre being worthless against Parallax."
In Zero Hour, between the page when you see Spectre get a hole in his chest, and what like a page or two after that? You'll notice, Hal didn't do anything with his power between these points but rather was fighting hand to hand, punches and headbutts, and a bubble comes off of Kyle's head. "He's completely drained, now's our chance!"
Then Spectre pops back up says "Justice is satisfied." and recreates the universe.

lol

You'll also notice through the fight people are begging Spectre not to kill him.

How about we talk about how Ganthet ran and hid from Hal during this whole ordeal? Or how all the guardians couldn't stop him from entering the battery? Or all but Ganthet sacrifices themselves and said to LEAVE and usher in a new era? They knew Ganthet wasn't powerful enough for Hal. And that was BEFORE he took in the Anti-Monitor's power as well.

lol.

In Day of Judgement, Azmodel/Spectre turned off the power of the entire Quintessence with a wave of his hand-- Shazam, Odin, Zues, Ganthet, Highfather. These guys are some of the universes largest sources of magic. Hal also came back in this series, led from purgatory.. he was still crazy powerful. He recreated the Corp to fight alongside him. Spectre looked at him and turned him into glass and shattered him. He was still running off of Parallax's energy at this point. Everyone stood aside so he could try to take on Spectre, and he just owned like a *****. lol.

About your analysis of 'Zero Hour,' I wasn't asking for that. I was asking you to resolve Spectre's ineffectiveness against Parallax itself, the entity of living fear in 'Green Lantern: Rebirth.' But now that you bring it up, your interpretation of the Guardians being punked by Hal is off-point. The Guardians actually chose not to do anything. They suddenly had a bout of 'non-interference' going and basically allowed themselves to be destroyed rather then fight back. An odd choice, since they interfered at other times like with Sinestro, but if you read 'Emerald Twilight,' its clear that is what happened. I suppose the writers had to do this, so that Hal had a fighting chance to absorb the power. We've seen how veteran GL's do against Guardians personally. For a pure bloodlust fight, look no further than when Kilowog tried to attack Ganthet in 'Rebirth.' Either way, Hal punking them is off-point since they made that choice.

About 'Day of Judgement,' I thought we went over this already. People can bypass raw power to steal and/or shut off access to powers. We see this plot device ALL THE TIME. Doom must have absorbed the Power Cosmic from Surfer a dozen times over in MU. Does that feat show he personally outpowers Surfer? C'mon, man. It would be different if nobody EVER did this to Spectre, but I already pointed out Black Alice! Spectre's raw power did not stop her from stealing it. Hallax's raw power or the Quintessence's raw power did not prevent the Spectre from shutting their power off either. If you run with this logic, to show this feat as proof that Spectre outpowers them personally, then you've shown that Black Alice outpowers Spectre personally. This is just ridiculous and I thought it patently obvious that running with this logic leads us to a patently absurd reordering of the powers of the DCUniverse: 1) God 2) Word and whatnot 3) Black Alice 4) Spectre and so on... You can't use this logic to prove Spectre being more powerful and then ignore that you've just now shown Spectre to be weaker than a human girl magician. These feats shouldn't be used to support one character personally outpowering another. I think we can easily agree on this.

So after reading your post, you've tried several things:

1) Attempt to prove your interpretation of Crisis. To be honest, I don't agree with it, (I still see no evidence that Spectre consciously molded the universe) but that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, since we both recognize that Spectre did it with help and that either way, Spectre has destroyed and recreated the universe afterwards.

2) Completely went off on a tangent with 'Zero Hour.' But I still explained the punking of the Guardians, and even if we find their excuse lame, its still the explicit reason why that happened.

3) Brought up the Black Alice argument again. I just won't even talk about this anymore.

Now, you've been bringing up some old and new things, but you still haven't addressed the two points I asked you to address. Spectre's ineffectivness in the anti-matter universe and Spectre's ineffectiveness against Parallax (the cosmic entity of living fear). I'm pretty sure I've got you in a corner, but I will give you another shot to try to resolve this. If you continue to ignore it, then I will consider it a complete concession. Also, knock it off with the constant 'lols.' Since I just turned everything you've posted on its head, they're pointless. But I did that without rubbing it in and you could show the same courtesy.

Can't really compare Black Alice to The Spectre shutting off other beings powers. Black Alices power is to steal any beings power for a short time and use them. While Black Alice had The Spectres power she was trying to keep it but it was going back to The Spectre, and with only a little bit of Spectres power back to him he was setting up barriers up against her so she couldn't do it ever again.

All of your questions dude has been answered its just you don't like the answers or are ignoring them outright which isn't fair to Spectre. I've reread Rebirth/DOV and i'm in the process of getting all of Hal/Spectre series now on ebay so i'll know what really happened. And has Ganthet ever shown any power to shut off other beings powered other then the GL rings (I've never seen him shut off a GL ring now thinking about).

Originally posted by kevdude
Can't really compare Black Alice to The Spectre shutting off other beings powers. Black Alices power is to steal any beings power for a short time and use them. While Black Alice had The Spectres power she was trying to keep it but it was going back to The Spectre, and with only a little bit of Spectres power back to him he was setting up barriers up against her so she couldn't do it ever again.

All of your questions dude has been answered its just you don't like the answers or are ignoring them outright which isn't fair to Spectre. I've reread Rebirth/DOV and i'm in the process of getting all of Hal/Spectre series now on ebay so i'll know what really happened. And has Ganthet ever shown any power to shut off other beings powered other then the GL rings (I've never seen him shut off a GL ring now thinking about).

But when Black Alice shut off Spectre, that doesn't count. When Dr. Doom nullified Surfer's Power Cosmic, that doesn't count either. I just showed you two instances when someone who wasn't more powerful, was able to shut off someone who was more powerful... and yet... that doesn't count. I'll be honest, kevdude. That not only is plain unfair, but it sounds stupid and ignorant.

Face it. Being able to shut off somebody else's power doesn't prove a god damn thing about who is stronger, because if it did, then Black Alice is stronger than Spectre and Dr. Doom is stronger than Silver Surfer.

Originally posted by kevdude
SO by your interpretation of this event, Hal Jordan does not want to go to Heaven??? Does that really make sense?? Who wouldn't want to go to Heaven??? Nobody. You say he is trying to find a way away from the light and hes resisting the pull??? Not really, Hal is just relaxing and flying stretching out his arms waiting to be embraced by God. If he was as you say resisting the pull wouldn't he just have to look at Ganthets ball of light to leave Gods light and go back to his body like he did AFTER Abin and his dad talked with him? They was the ones that changed Hals mind. I don't need to see a picture of it, I have it in my lap lol. This is the correct interpretation of that event. We do agree that Hal does do what Ganthet wants him to do but its not Ganthet that was the reason Hal returned at all...

About Ganthet, If I was Hal Jordan I wouldn't listen to Ganthet either, look at there history. Ganthet didn't help Jordan when he most needed him (after Coast City was destroyed, not saying to try to make it seem like nothing ever happened but at least acting like a real friend which Ganthet and the Guardians didn't do). Ollie even tells Kyle (or someone else don't remember right now) that he doesn't trust Ganthet, so how would Hal feel about him???

Why is it taking so long for you to understand this???? Most of these questions have already been answered correctly, just open your mind up to the possibility that Spectre does > Ganthet.. You keep saying your not anti-spectre but how you act you seem you don't want to waste your time with it, you just want to prove Ganthet > Spectre. I've read Rebirth many times and I know how they mean what is put in Rebirth.

Also about the Anti-Monitors powers, he was being powered by hundreds if not thousands of universes dieing, The Anti-Monitor would be foolish to go up against The Spectre at the beginning, he would lose! That is why DC saved the big battle for last almost The Anti-Monitor took out The Guardians right at the beginning, how can they be so powerful so smart if they can't come back when they are really really needed?

If Hal was still upset about Ganthet not helping him resurrect Coast City, then you're saying that Hal thinks resurrecting Coast City was the right thing to do. Isn't it obvious how wrong that is when its spelled out? Especially in the face of the fact that Hal doesn't just run off and steal the Power of the Guardians again right after 'Rebirth.' Why would he resent Ganthet, when Hal recognizes that using all that power was the wrong thing to do? I wanted to kill 5-yr old Timmy. Sure,... killing 5-yr old Timmy was actually wrong. But you know what, you're a jerk for trying to stop me. This makes absolutely no sense.

About Guardians being useless in Crisis again. Let me repeat, we never saw what the Guardians could have done. They were taken out of the game with a sneak attack all the way back in issue #2. A, sneak, attack. You're saying because they couldn't do anything in response, we should assume they suck and would have been useless anyway? First off, why the hell would you make a sneak attack against someone that was inconsequential? Does that make sense or is Anti-monitor an idiot?

Secondly, let me further illustrate with an analagous comic book story: The fight in 'Ultimate War' between the Ultimates and Ult. X-Men. I hope you've read that, but even if you didn't, here's the lowdown: Nick Fury used psionic inhibitors to preemptively knock out Prof X and Jean Grey before the fight cause the Ultimates would just have been zapped by psychic attacks. So according to your reasoning, Prof X and Jean Grey suck and would have been useless since they got knocked out when they were really really really needed. Riiiiight... Well, maybe now its obvious why this line of reasoning is just wrong. The Guardians being the first people Anti-monitor even engaged with a sneak attack should, if anything, tell you that they were really dangerous to him. I won't ask you to make that assumption, but don't use this sneak attack as proof that the Guardians suck. If anything, it is evidence that the Guardians would have caused the Anti-Monitor a heap of trouble if he didn't take em out first with a sneak attack. Your interpretation doesn't make any sense.

Again, it is my honest opinion that your interpretation of 'Rebirth' is totally off-the-wall. There are too many holes and conflicts and you've had to change your positions many times. I wouldn't be having this debate with you if I didn't think it was so obvious that 'Rebirth' established that 'Ganthet > Spectre.' Face it, my interpretation is more logically sound, sounds better on a thematic scale and you've NEVER been able to show anything in my interpretation that is inconsistent. You stretch things, your themes are all over the place and I've constantly been picking your views apart with the obvious artwork, conversations, actions and flashbacks that make your view inconsistent. I've also made you reverse some of your positions and forced you to just plain abandon others. I've even shown some of your explanations as just sounding plain nonsensical. I'm not insulting you, but I just can't avoid calling some of yur explanation as anything other than that. Like this below:

Originally posted by kevdude
Isn't that what Hal did??? He realized how to fight Parallax using Vengeance. Part of using Vengeance is Fighting and Facing Fear, Face To Face not running away from it.

Originally posted by kevdude
And has Ganthet ever shown any power to shut off other beings powered other then the GL rings (I've never seen him shut off a GL ring now thinking about).

I haven't abandoned anything at all ive just moved on since to other things because you aren't understanding it. About Hal reaching for Ganthets light, he isn't really reaching for Ganthets light at all in the picture, hes looking back to John and then is pulled into Gods light. If you want to say "well look at his hand, its reaching out towards John", no its not, John pulled his arm away while trying to get Hals attention and his arm is just there!! I don't have a scanner the comics is in my lap. You must have the comic so just read it and look at it this way and you would see im right, and if im right about that then who knows what else im right about??

About Hal not caring about his friends and Parallax. I'm sure he cared alot about what was going on, but if anyone is in Gods presence who would really in there right mind want to leave??? nobody. remember when the heros went to ask Jim Corrigan to come back to be the Spectres host again while he was in Heaven, what did he say?? he said no, and of course he would say no anyone would, that just makes sense. If you get this confused then how are u going to understand Rebirth really?

about Ganthets power ability's and him shutting off other beings powers. That was just a test i did for you to see how much of a pro-Ganthet and anti-Spectre you are. Maybe doing this would make u look at everything me and Juntai said different and make you look at your posts in another way but who knows.

........

Fact is--- Spectre is a piece of God.
Ganthet is a creation thereof.

As was noted in Spectre volume 4, issue 4. Or Hal's run as Spectre. While Logoz/The Spectre, is not "THE ALL", it IS God's will and physical manifestation.. The Logoz assumed the form of Aztar. As Corrigan saw in Spectre volume 3 issue 60. [Micheal said it was the decision of The Word that Aztar be punished by having all traces of himself removed and for the Spectre to become The Wrath, but later it is found The Word and The Logoz are the very same being.]

If you want to believe a random being inside of the universe is greater than the manifestation of the God that created it... "You outcho damn mind, yo." But still, after this post, I'll leave you to your delusions.

You're good and solid at debating, but you're completely ignoring these facts. And while I'm not answering ALL of your questions, it's because they are completly irrelivent to the point here-- ...Spectre is the will of God... Ganthet is a blue midget.

-fin'.

Originally posted by Juntai
Fact is--- Spectre is a piece of God.
Ganthet is a creation thereof.

As was noted in Spectre volume 4, issue 4. Or Hal's run as Spectre. While Logoz/The Spectre, is not "THE ALL", it IS God's will and physical manifestation.. The Logoz assumed the form of Aztar. As Corrigan saw in Spectre volume 3 issue 60. [Micheal said it was the decision of The Word that Aztar be punished by having all traces of himself removed and for the Spectre to become The Wrath, but later it is found The Word and The Logoz are the very same being.]

If you want to believe a random being inside of the universe is greater than the manifestation of the God that created it... "You outcho damn mind, yo." But still, after this post, I'll leave you to your delusions.

You're good and solid at debating, but you're completely ignoring these facts. And while I'm not answering ALL of your questions, it's because they are completly irrelivent to the point here-- ...Spectre is the will of God... Ganthet is a blue midget.

-fin'.

So I must assume that these instances are complete author's error, or I can offer these as evidence that your interpretation of the Spectre series is taken out of context. If you decide not to address the imminent and clear inconsistencies presented, 1) the will of God or a piece of God has no bearing in the anti-matter universe, 2) the will of god or a piece of God cannot affect a cosmic entity of living fear and 3) a teenage girl magician may subvert the will of God or a piece of God for her own purposes... then I have no choice but to decide that your involvement in this debate is over and you've given up. I'm not going to beat a dead horse, unless it involves Captain America being beaten by some 2nd rate character.

But moving past that, I am interested in hearing your other interpretations of the Spectre. Such as, if Spectre is a piece of God, which by your understanding is a virtue that places him above any of God's creations,... how do you explain that these Archangels and such basically tell Spectre what to do? Because if they are Archangels, then they are creations of God right? And it seems they are at least equal to Spectre's power or authority from what you've told me. If that's the case, than your assertion that a creation of God cannot match a piece of God Himself is defeated on its face. Also, what about the Spear of Destiny? Hasn't that been shown to be able to destroy the Spectre? If it can, does that mean a weapon exists that can destroy a piece of God?

Again, keep in mind that what I think the Spectre series shows, is that the Spectre isn't merely some disembodied and brainwashed angel. He is a disembodied and brainwashed angel that derives his power from a part of God himself, his Wrath. However, that is different from equating Spectre to being a piece of God. But my interpretation certainly allows for the blatant inconsistencies I've demonstrated. Either way, since you won't answer my questions about anti-matter universes and Parallax, how about you tell me some more about when in the universe's timeline, the Spectre came into being, how Michael has interacted with Spectre and what danger the Spear of Destiny poses to him. If you want, you can also talk about Jesus in DCU and how his presence limited the Spectre as well.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Again, I would very much like to see the context of those passages. Because this is the ultimate issue: If I take what you say to be true, then God's will has no power in the anti-matter universe. That doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things. I don't think Qward or the anti-matter universe is outside God's control. The Spectre has explicitly stated that his power is useless in the anti-matter universe. He was also useless against a cosmic entity of living fear. I'm pretty sure even the concept of anti-matter and fear is not foreign to God. Hell, a teenage girl magician was able to steal Spectre's powers and show him to be nothing more than a ghost.

So I must assume that these instances are complete author's error, [b]or I can offer these as evidence that your interpretation of the Spectre series is taken out of context. If you decide not to address the imminent and clear inconsistencies presented, 1) the will of God or a piece of God has no bearing in the anti-matter universe, 2) the will of god or a piece of God cannot affect a cosmic entity of living fear and 3) a teenage girl magician may subvert the will of God or a piece of God for her own purposes... then I have no choice but to decide that your involvement in this debate is over and you've given up. I'm not going to beat a dead horse, unless it involves Captain America being beaten by some 2nd rate character.

But moving past that, I am interested in hearing your other interpretations of the Spectre. Such as, if Spectre is a piece of God, which by your understanding is a virtue that places him above any of God's creations,... how do you explain that these Archangels and such basically tell Spectre what to do? Because if they are Archangels, then they are creations of God right? And it seems they are at least equal to Spectre's power or authority from what you've told me. If that's the case, than your assertion that a creation of God cannot match a piece of God Himself is defeated on its face. Also, what about the Spear of Destiny? Hasn't that been shown to be able to destroy the Spectre? If it can, does that mean a weapon exists that can destroy a piece of God?

Again, keep in mind that what I think the Spectre series shows, is that the Spectre isn't merely some disembodied and brainwashed angel. He is a disembodied and brainwashed angel that derives his power from a part of God himself, his Wrath. However, that is different from equating Spectre to being a piece of God. But my interpretation certainly allows for the blatant inconsistencies I've demonstrated. Either way, since you won't answer my questions about anti-matter universes and Parallax, how about you tell me some more about when in the universe's timeline, the Spectre came into being, how Michael has interacted with Spectre and what danger the Spear of Destiny poses to him. If you want, you can also talk about Jesus in DCU and how his presence limited the Spectre as well. [/B]

I've already posted the piece on him being identified on page as a piece of God itself.

Hal saw past The Wrath and found what it actually is. The Logoz, it told him itself in issue 4 of his series.

And The Spear if Destiny is the ONLY weapon that can destroy The Spectre, because it has ALREADY pierced the Holy Veil when it killed Jesus.

And The Angels don't TELL Spectre what to do. They offer guidance to the HOST at times.

The times that MICHEAL came and told The Spectre what to do- is when he said he came in fullfillment of what The Word had spoken to him. The Word also known as The Logoz, or, The Spectre-Force.

Any faults you may pretend to be able to find in The Spectre, is actually in the HOST, and not the power itself..The Spectre Force cuts the power out of the host if it is going against it's will. This has all been explained in his own series.

Regardless of anything you're trying to point out, the fact is, on page, on paper, in the comics, Spectre itself spoke to Hal, and told him what was up. Same as I'm trying to help you with. lol.

Straight out of that issue. Issue 4 of Spectre's series.

"I have not changed Hal -- you have! For at last you believe to the core of your being that there is hope... for yourself and the children of Earth. And in believing you have freed me from the tyranny of man's projections."

Hal: "This is your true face?"

"As best you can percieve it."

Hal: "Not a demon at all, you're a. . . a . . piece of God itself."

Then on page 14, for further backup..

"For far too long I have reflected darkness in the human heart. I have been everything they wanted me to be. For the moment at least, your belief has pierced the viel of The Wrath and revealed THE LOGOZ that lies beneath! But do you have the courage to continue seeing me this way? To overide the consensus of reality and embrace the possibilities of what you... what we... what the world...can become?"

Originally posted by Juntai
Any faults you may pretend to be able to find in The Spectre, is actually in the HOST, and not the power itself..The Spectre Force cuts the power out of the host if it is going against it's will. This has all been explained in his own series.

Regardless of anything you're trying to point out, the fact is, on page, on paper, in the comics, Spectre itself spoke to Hal, and told him what was up. Same as I'm trying to help you with. lol.

So you're saying that the reason Spectre can't do anything in the anti-matter universe is because the host was at fault? Yet, nothing in 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' or elsewhere for that matter, stated that if Spectre was disembodied from Corrigan, he could go ahead and run into the anti-matter universe without restriction. In fact, contrary to that, he states that explicitly in 'Crisis,' the reason he can't go into the anti-matter universe is that his power is magical in nature. Magic as we know doesn't work in the anti-matter universe. So are we to assume that Corrigan was speaking and Spectre was actually thinking, "Pfft. Stupid Corrigan, if only he knew the truth, we could go ahead and resolve this mess right up."??? I doubt even you would make this leap.

Hell, I'll do you even one better than that. A disembodied Spectre in 'Day of Vengeance' explicitly described himself as a magical being who would no longer exist once all magic was destroyed! Resolve that! I promise, scans will come shortly this week, but I'm pretty sure that conversation took place in the 3rd or 4th issue and I hope you remember that. So resolve that with your explanation.

Again I ask, how can the will of God have no bearing in the anti-matter universe as you've explained? I've already explained my belief, the Spectre-force is the manifestation of the power of vengeance. It finds its obvious source from God, but it is magical and therefore, it has its own limits, such as ineffectiveness in the anti-matter universe.

omg

Ok does this make sense, since Doomsday was able to almost destroy Oa and none of the Guardians could stop him, Doomsday must > Spectre. So then Superman must own > Spectre as well(even tho Superman never has been shown to > the Spectre or even on his power level ever!). The Spectre DOES > Ganthet and Parallax bro.

Hal/Spectre was on Apokolips and stood his ground when Darksied shot his Omega Beams at him, Hal/Spectre took the blow and then sent a beam of light to Darksied which killed him within seconds. The Source brought him back though cause Darksied wasn't allowed to die at that time.

You're bringing up something entirely new and avoiding my arguments. But if you want me to tackle this, I need more information. I remember reading that comic book, a part of Doomsday's origins. I think it was after he confronted Darkseid and neither decided to fight the other. Then I believe Darkseid transported him and he ran into a GL, who tried to trap him in a bubble. Than he overwhelms the bubble construct and the GL gets slain. Doomsday takes his ring and then you see a collage of shots where he travels on a yellow chunk of rock beating the crap out of a bunch of GL's. He finally gets in the middle of a civil war on an alien planet and makes a big mess of things whereupon he gets trapped in that container that eventually crashes into Earth just in time for 'Death of Superman.' I don't remember him on Oa kicking the crap out of the Guardians. If you say so, please post scans or some reference so I can see what context this was.

What I'm pointing out is not that hard to wrap around. The Power of the Guardians has shown the same feats of power that the Spectre's power of vengeance has. I think we're agreed on that. But when you directly compare feats/limits, even more than that, its done better in that it survives the anti-matter universe and worked against Parallax (at near universal power, mind you). What's so difficult to concede at this point?

And I don't particularly understand how Hal/Spectre taking a shot from Darkseid's Omega Beams relates to this conversation. Superman takes shots from the Omega Beams. Wonder Woman deflects Omega Beams with her bracelets for goodness' sake. Hal/Spectre killed Darkseid and resurrected him? Good for him. What's your point?

I've been away because of law school exams, but I'm back and the last thing I want to think about is contracts and torts. So I decided to haunt some of my old battlegrounds again. First off, just a quick comment on your whole 'Spectre giving the low-down.' Haven't we been making points that people's words aren't truth? You guys repeatedly told me how Parallax saying Spectre is powerless against him is false. Even in the face of evidence that Hal's overcoming fear was the major catalyst, you guys argued that this statement by Parallax is erroneous. I'm not saying that Spectre's testimony to Hal is false, but just because he said it proves nothing, otherwise this whole debate would have been over when Parallax stated Spectre was powerless against him. You need to support your interpretation of Spectre's testimony with evidence and resolve my discrepancies before you can award yourself an open and shut case. You're starting to do that with this whole 'host being at fault' theory. But I don't think it holds water, as I'll argue.

-- We know that many characters words aren't always true, but you're now saying that DC's Gods weren't aren't true. The Logoz itself and Hal had the conversation in Spectre v3 issue 4. Go read it.

So you're saying that the reason Spectre can't do anything in the anti-matter universe is because the host was at fault? Yet, nothing in 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' or elsewhere for that matter, stated that if Spectre was disembodied from Corrigan, he could go ahead and run into the anti-matter universe without restriction. In fact, contrary to that, he states that explicitly in 'Crisis,' the reason he can't go into the anti-matter universe is that his power is magical in nature. Magic as we know doesn't work in the anti-matter universe. So are we to assume that Corrigan was speaking and Spectre was actually thinking, "Pfft. Stupid Corrigan, if only he knew the truth, we could go ahead and resolve this mess right up."??? I doubt even you would make this leap.

--He is a victim of a retcon multiple times since then, so current Spectre is NOT the same as it was back then. Back then he was considered a manifestation of vengeance, he was depowered in the 1987-1989 series of Spectre, and then had to earn his place back through that series.. fostforward until now, and we know that Spectre is indeed the Logoz, which is a piece of God, as it said itself, and has also been noted for many times throughout DC comics' history. Corrigan used to explain all the time that he could not do things because he couldn't go against the Will of God.[Which is what current Spectre, being the Logoz, is.] Hal, in his series unlocked the full potential of The Spectreforce in his series. Through the Legends of the DCU: Destroyer of World's series and his early apperances as Spectre, and all the way up until early in Spectre v.3 it was described many times that the Spectre was limiting him because if he was still crazy he do what he tried to as Parallax and that no one would be able to stop him.

Hell, I'll do you even one better than that. A disembodied Spectre in 'Day of Vengeance' explicitly described himself as a magical being who would no longer exist once all magic was destroyed! Resolve that! I promise, scans will come shortly this week, but I'm pretty sure that conversation took place in the 3rd or 4th issue and I hope you remember that. So resolve that with your explanation.

--He didn't say that he'd no longer exist, he alluded to the point that he would destroy himself to rid the universe of all things magic, but that still agrees with him being magic as you said-- but it doesn't seem to prove anything.

Again I ask, how can the will of God have no bearing in the anti-matter universe as you've explained? I've already explained my belief, the Spectre-force is the manifestation of the power of vengeance. It finds its obvious source from God, but it is magical and therefore, it has its own limits, such as ineffectiveness in the anti-matter universe. [/B]

You keep making me defend Spectre in this thread, because of simply a complete lack of knowing his character or reading his comics, but what it comes down to is that this thread is Ganthet vs Spectre, and Ganthet's position in the universe, and the feats his power has accomplished, is nothing next to The Spectre's. Leading me, everyone else on this the forum who knows the characters decently well, the guys down at the comic shop, and pretty much everyone but you, that he is.

In the beginning it seemed as your whole basis for arguement in the thread was Ganthet claiming to be more powerful than Spectre, when it isn't true, in Rebirth, Ganthet says Spectre's power was greater than his own. It was Parallax who insinuated otherwise, and you'll notice he only wanted to feed off of Ganthet's powers once Spectre had departed from being seperated with Ha Jordan.

The Rebirth story in it's entirety was more an introspective story of Hal's soul needing to beat Parallax, or rather, it's fears. Which was what his whole run of Spectre was about as well.

Then again you left that theory behind back a while in the thread, and have just made it an attack on The Spectre's character only to the obvious conclusion that Spectre, now is much stronger than he was, due to retcon after Hal Jordan's run as Spectre, having unlocked it's full potential in issue 4. Likewise most all heros are much stronger now than they were back then. Corrigan himself for example seemed to struggle in recreating the universe in Crisis on Infinite Earths, [And although you seem to disagree with Spectre recreating the Universe in COIE, it is stated in his "SECRET FILES" on dccomics.com homepage that he indeed defeated the Anti-Monitor and restarted the universe.] but he did it effortlessly at the end of Zero Hour, and Hal has done it effortlessly since then as well..

Again I ask YOU, where do Ganthet and Spectre's feats even come close to matching up? Fact is, they don't. Spectre is shown regularly to be far beyond Ganthet's powers. No Guardians power matches up.

In Crisis on Infinite Earths, you see Guardians getting wiped out, you see Spectre defeating and banishing the Anti-Monitor, depowering him to a point where heros defeat him, and recreating the multiverse, and it was said the reason he couldn't kill the anti-monitor, was because he'd destroy all the heros and villains that were there saving the day... in Corrigan's mind, this was not an option, apperently, who opted for the previous.

We seen Guardians getting killed in Doomsday Annual 1, The Tales of the Green Lantern Corp miniseries, COIE, The GL volume 2 Crisis crossover issues, and Appa Ali Apsa was killed in The Road Back. And in GL Issue 40, Krona's first story arc ,it is said that the Guardians merely figured out a way to slow the aging process, but weren't immortal. Also, Krona himself killed many Guardians. When was the last time you seen Spectre killed?

If you want to continue trying to understand Spectre, by all means keep posting or ask me in PM or something, but it should be clear that Spectre is far greater than him from comic appearances and feats alone.

Btw, welcome back.
🙂