Originally posted by Deus Ex
I'm surprised Nai isn't here on Yoda's side.
Well, I'd really rather not see you in that light again. While yes, Nai is biased, his arguments are meant to show something that he deems realistic. I myself dislike the idea that a single being could vanquish the two most powerful Jedi of an era, but I accept it. I think the fanboy statement was a little harsh. True to a point, but not really to the degree that you stressed it.
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Well, I'd really rather not see you in that light again. While yes, Nai is biased, his arguments are meant to show something that he deems realistic. I myself dislike the idea that a single being could vanquish the two most powerful Jedi of an era, but I accept it. I think the fanboy statement was a little harsh. True to a point, but not really to the degree that you stressed it.
To be bloody honest, Nai's argument in the Kun versus three PT jedi thread includes Kun sitting there like a moron while the three PT jedi manage to work perfectly to all attack at once and he apparently has no chance because his fighting style is basic and anyone can learn it despite it being relatively unknown but Vaapad is a great unknown and Shatterpoint would allow Mace to contend with Kun while Yod and Dooku would work like "teh perfect team" to keep Kun completely offguard.
Oh, and if Kun uses force powers they must be horribly weak. Nai showed us just how weak every force user before Kun was by saying that blowing up a star is pointless and is more the machine than the man using it. And then if Kun using force lightning it must simply be the same as Dooku's or Sidious' (Despite that fact that greater lightning HAS been shown in the DE series and more) and the others would just easily block it and this wouldn't help Kun at all. He would still die to three lightsabers aimed perfectly at him at the same exact time from which he could not ever ever ever never dodge it.
Seriously... Realistic? Nai Fohl is saying there is absolutely no way Kun can win the fight, period.
While I normally commend him for being smart, educated, and putting forth good arguments, I think his stance on this one is a bit lopsided and he won't even concede when he's blatantly riding on the least likely scenario to make a judgment. I mean, if you want to say "Hey, Kun might be hard pressed here. It isn't 100% in his favor, here's why." Yeah okay. I'll go with that. When you barge in and render absolute judgment on why it just has to be this way and the team you're supporting will act just perfect enough to defeat Kun and there's no two ways about it and then proceed to bash his talents and take him down to Yoda's level (who is your professed favorite character) then...
Then, I think it's a bit overboard. I like Nai, don't get me wrong. I really do. But I think his argument is really, really bias and ridiculous. And I'll stand by that.
The thing is, Nai probably doesn't see the power difference the rest see's. Hoping that Kun couldn't be that superior to the PT Jedi. This isn't strange actually when you consider the role Yoda has. He is considered as one of the most powerful, yet still he has many PT that are equal to him.
Meaning that if he really was one of the most powerful the rest would not be equal to him. Its kinda hard to admit to Yoda being weak too, EU is just really overpowered nothing you can do about it. It made the PT Jedi weak, its what peace does to Jedi and Sith, even Jedi like Obi Wan, Mace and Yoda and Sith like Dooku. They are nothing compared to the ancients.
Yeh......
Kun actually has no chance here...err in the other thread. Yoda and Dooku and Mace would not obliterate or own him, but they would definetly beat him. As expert fighter as he is, 3 best jedi of the PT era would outclass him in saber mastery. All of them together. As for force powers Kun is the ultimate here, but you have 3 powerful force users.
Yoda is not as powerful as Kun with the force, maybe even Yoda and Mace are not as powerful with the force, but Dooku Yoda and Mace ARE more powerful with the force. Seeing how one can force lightning the other one can force push, and another throw an object at him, at the same time. GL deflecting that.
Its not one attack thats going at him. Its not impossible to beat back three seperate objects coming at you with different angles and strengths, do not think that these three will become one in this fight. Kun is fighting three weaker people, not a team of people...
He will win this because these people can not and will not work together in a way good enough to beat somebody of his power...
Akbar, you have an opinion, but you definately don't have a solid stance, I'll tell you that.
Here, read this folks.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Yeh......Kun actually has no chance here...err in the other thread. Yoda and Dooku and Mace would not obliterate or own him, but they would definetly beat him. As expert fighter as he is, 3 best jedi of the PT era would outclass him in saber mastery. All of them together. As for force powers Kun is the ultimate here, but you have 3 powerful force users.
Yoda is not as powerful as Kun with the force, maybe even Yoda and Mace are not as powerful with the force, but Dooku Yoda and Mace ARE more powerful with the force. Seeing how one can force lightning the other one can force push, and another throw an object at him, at the same time. GL deflecting that.
This would be an effective argument in some Digimon world where all three could fuse together into some almighty force with the ability to strike as fast as the trio could, had their combined Force powers, and thought like one. No. That happens when you have people so perfectly attuned to eachother that they are two halves of a whole. Or three thirds. And there is no way in bloody hell that these three can do such a thing. It is three inferior warriors against one vastly superior warrior, not the combined power of three good warriors against one good warrior.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
Akbar, you have an opinion, but you definately don't have a solid stance, I'll tell you that.Here, read this folks.
Some good stuff.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
Akbar, you have an opinion, but you definately don't have a solid stance, I'll tell you that.Here, read this folks.
Janus, when did Mike Wong become your idiol? 😛
Well...again one of those fights. I give it 50 / 50 chance for either of them winning:
Ulic:
- was able to stalemate Kun but we don't know how this fight would have ended
- is a exceptional force user
- is an exceptional lightsaber duellist keeping the fact in mind that he was able to outduel a Jedi Knight without having his force powers
Yoda:
- can avoid hits from 3 Jedi Master attacking him with a lightsaber at once
- is very small and fast making it hard to hit him
- has 900 years of experience with a lightsaber and some "frontline" experience against droids and clones
Powerwise I don't think that Ulic can overthrow Yoda, in saberskills they would most likely stalemate each other but seeing that Ulic would most likely posess the better physical condition (especially endurance) he might win that in the end.
offtopic:
Since people again start throwing in critics about my argumentation in the Kun vs Yoda, Mace, Dooku thread again I will explain my point of view so that some people will finally understand it.
I pretty much dislike the idea that the ancient time Jedi would be superior to the PT Jedi because of two very, very simple points:
a) Training time:
If you have a look at the major force users in the TOTJ comics you might simply notice that they all have started training being in a quite advanced age...
Nomi Sunrider was married and had a daughter before she started her Jedi training. The Quel-Droma brothers were already adults before their mother send him to train under Arca Jeth. Aleema and Satal Keto also were adults when they started to learn about the ways of the force (stealing a book from Coruscant). Now what do we have here ? A bunch of little Revans that all can archieve the knowledge in years that others needed decades or even centuries to attain ? Or do they all simply surpass Anakin in terms of midichlorian counts being able to develop their force skills faster ?
The thing is that most things of the EU (alls things pre-Ruusan, most of the past-ROTJ stuff) was written before the PT (or TPM) came out. So the only impression the writers had how long it the training of a force user up to the point he can become a Jedi Knight might take was Luke's training which lasted 3.5 years from "first contact with the force" to "Jedi Knight" status. And still most EU writers gave Luke credit for being something "special" since most of the Ancient force users were either serveral hundret years old (like Yoda) and their students needed years to advance to a point that Luke reached in weeks / months training under Yoda.
The PT pretty much destroyed the concept because now all "powerful" people had to go through 2 decades of training just to become Jedi Knights - far more time than the ancient people have needed as far as we can tell. And thinking about it from the situation like it is now it's very unlikely that the ancient Jedi having that little training would overpower people having 10 or even 100 times there experience in terms of lightsaber combat and force use.
b) Actual power:
If you go through the comics the ancient Jedi appear quite weak. Take Arca Jeth as an example. He's another one of those ancient Jedi Masters with serveral hundrets years of experience and he gets killed by battledroids ! Freaking battledroids ! Something that normal Jedi Knights of the PT era can kill dozens of (unless being Niman practioners) and he trained people like Ulic (who had his force powers stripped of by Nomi Sunrider - something that needs 3 Jedi Masters to do with the Exile, and was killed by a single guy with a blaster - ok he had no force powers any longer but he was able to outduel another Jedi in a lightsaber fight).
If you read through the biographies of those poeple and compare them to the ones of the PT people it seems stupid. Take Nadd as another example. Nadd was about to become a Jedi Knight when he went dark side. Why should he be stronger in terms of force powers than Jedi Masters going dark side (like Dooku) ? Why should he outclass people in lightsaber combat that had 10 times more time training with that weapon.
In conclusion: If you put the ancient time characters above the PT ones you have to assume that all the ancient Jedi could develop skills (in force powers and lightsaber combat) far faster than the PT Jedi because otherwise the whole history of the SW universe wouldn't make sense any longer. We know that the Jedi stored all knowledge they did archieve in the last 25,000 years so the PT era people would have access to the very same things the ancient Jedi would have access too. It makes sense for the Sith to lose knowledge (because killing their masters before having learned anything from them) but that doesn't make sense for the Jedi.
And because of that I would find it very hard to believe that an ancient Jedi would be superior to a PT Jedi. Ancient Sith are a different thing but here again: Ulic had a pretty tough fight with his brother Cay (as far as I remember) and Cay being a Jedi trained for 10 or 15 years. Now cut Cay out of this fight and throw Mace Windu in for example (who has 50 years of experience in lightsaber combat and force use and is naturally gifted with both) - Would Ulic still win ? Maybe...but nowhere close to doing it "easily". And now (developing that idea further and come back to the topic of the critic): If Ulic can't kill Mace Windu "easily" and on the other handside was able to stalemate Kun - how would Kun be able to obliterate Mace and how would Kun be able to defeat 3 people being on Mace his level (thereby quite close to Ulic) ?
Now you might get the idea why I deemed it impossible for Kun to defeat Dooku, Mace and Yoda at once. Each on them on their own - yes. All three together ? No.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
"Wars not make one great."
He put up a good fight, but lost? Maybe he would beat yoda, but not kill him in 5 seconds.
Being great and being powerful are two different things. Hitler was more powerful than Plato, but I would argue that Plato is greater.
Ulic never lost to Exar. Do some research please. If you read it, it says they were EVENLY matched, not, Exar was better and Ulic was just staying alive. Sure evenly matched might not be an exactly true statment, but it is meant to show that the fight was very close and could have gone either way. Remember, Ulic has one of Freedon Nadd's Sith Amulets, greatly enhancing his power. I don't belive anyone said Ulic would beat Yoda in 5 seconds.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...again one of those fights. I give it 50 / 50 chance for either of them winning:Ulic:
- was able to stalemate Kun but we don't know how this fight would have ended
- is a exceptional force user
- is an exceptional lightsaber duellist keeping the fact in mind that he was able to outduel a Jedi Knight without having his force powersYoda:
- can avoid hits from 3 Jedi Master attacking him with a lightsaber at once
- is very small and fast making it hard to hit him
- has 900 years of experience with a lightsaber and some "frontline" experience against droids and clonesPowerwise I don't think that Ulic can overthrow Yoda, in saberskills they would most likely stalemate each other but seeing that Ulic would most likely posess the better physical condition (especially endurance) he might win that in the end.
[b]offtopic:
Since people again start throwing in critics about my argumentation in the Kun vs Yoda, Mace, Dooku thread again I will explain my point of view so that some people will finally understand it.I pretty much dislike the idea that the ancient time Jedi would be superior to the PT Jedi because of two very, very simple points:
a) Training time:
If you have a look at the major force users in the TOTJ comics you might simply notice that they all have started training being in a quite advanced age...Nomi Sunrider was married and had a daughter before she started her Jedi training. The Quel-Droma brothers were already adults before their mother send him to train under Arca Jeth. Aleema and Satal Keto also were adults when they started to learn about the ways of the force (stealing a book from Coruscant). Now what do we have here ? A bunch of little Revans that all can archieve the knowledge in years that others needed decades or even centuries to attain ? Or do they all simply surpass Anakin in terms of midichlorian counts being able to develop their force skills faster ?
The thing is that most things of the EU (alls things pre-Ruusan, most of the past-ROTJ stuff) was written before the PT (or TPM) came out. So the only impression the writers had how long it the training of a force user up to the point he can become a Jedi Knight might take was Luke's training which lasted 3.5 years from "first contact with the force" to "Jedi Knight" status. And still most EU writers gave Luke credit for being something "special" since most of the Ancient force users were either serveral hundret years old (like Yoda) and their students needed years to advance to a point that Luke reached in weeks / months training under Yoda.
The PT pretty much destroyed the concept because now all "powerful" people had to go through 2 decades of training just to become Jedi Knights - far more time than the ancient people have needed as far as we can tell. And thinking about it from the situation like it is now it's very unlikely that the ancient Jedi having that little training would overpower people having 10 or even 100 times there experience in terms of lightsaber combat and force use.
b) Actual power:
If you go through the comics the ancient Jedi appear quite weak. Take Arca Jeth as an example. He's another one of those ancient Jedi Masters with serveral hundrets years of experience and he gets killed by battledroids ! Freaking battledroids ! Something that normal Jedi Knights of the PT era can kill dozens of (unless being Niman practioners) and he trained people like Ulic (who had his force powers stripped of by Nomi Sunrider - something that needs 3 Jedi Masters to do with the Exile, and was killed by a single guy with a blaster - ok he had no force powers any longer but he was able to outduel another Jedi in a lightsaber fight).If you read through the biographies of those poeple and compare them to the ones of the PT people it seems stupid. Take Nadd as another example. Nadd was about to become a Jedi Knight when he went dark side. Why should he be stronger in terms of force powers than Jedi Masters going dark side (like Dooku) ? Why should he outclass people in lightsaber combat that had 10 times more time training with that weapon.
In conclusion: If you put the ancient time characters above the PT ones you have to assume that all the ancient Jedi could develop skills (in force powers and lightsaber combat) far faster than the PT Jedi because otherwise the whole history of the SW universe wouldn't make sense any longer. We know that the Jedi stored all knowledge they did archieve in the last 25,000 years so the PT era people would have access to the very same things the ancient Jedi would have access too. It makes sense for the Sith to lose knowledge (because killing their masters before having learned anything from them) but that doesn't make sense for the Jedi.
And because of that I would find it very hard to believe that an ancient Jedi would be superior to a PT Jedi. Ancient Sith are a different thing but here again: Ulic had a pretty tough fight with his brother Cay (as far as I remember) and Cay being a Jedi trained for 10 or 15 years. Now cut Cay out of this fight and throw Mace Windu in for example (who has 50 years of experience in lightsaber combat and force use and is naturally gifted with both) - Would Ulic still win ? Maybe...but nowhere close to doing it "easily". And now (developing that idea further and come back to the topic of the critic): If Ulic can't kill Mace Windu "easily" and on the other handside was able to stalemate Kun - how would Kun be able to obliterate Mace and how would Kun be able to defeat 3 people being on Mace his level (thereby quite close to Ulic) ?
Now you might get the idea why I deemed it impossible for Kun to defeat Dooku, Mace and Yoda at once. Each on them on their own - yes. All three together ? No. [/B]
Well, this is much better than I had expected. A few thoughts:
- Blame EU inconsistancies for everything. The late coming of the PT really helped this.
- It is not likely that much information from 4,000 made it to the future era. For one, Ossus was destroyed. Dantooine was razed to the ground and the information either lost, stolen, or both. Malachor V is likely to be destroyed (Yes, it's Sith, but still, my point). Korriban was razed and raided. The jedi order itself was nearly elminated shortly after the time of Exar Kun. Really, some of the havens for Jedi knowledge include (presumably) Coruscant, a few select places, and Telos in Atris' sanctuary. Everything else was wiped out. To say the PT jedi must have had all the comprehensive knowledge from before is like saying the British museum should have damn near every piece of jewelry and pottery from ancient Egypt. There are so many places it could have been lost entirely.
- This isn't my opinion, but you mentioned something about midi-chlorians and the ancient jedi being trained; well, midi-chlorians are apparently genetic. Families of strong Force connections existed frequently back then, and there didn't appear to be apprehensions about having children, marrying, etc.
Well, as of KOTOR II, the jedi were nearly wiped out. Major bloodlines with high midi-chlorian counts ceased to exist. Now I'm going out on a limb here, but it would make sense that stronger Force users ceased to exist in large numbers beyond this time period, or perhaps at all. That might be why Anakin was such a prodigy, and by all accounts he was artificially made by the Sith (If you don't believe in this theory, fine. I do.)
So you see, it IS possible that stronger Force users existed in the past. You just brought up a decent argument as to why they would.