Originally posted by Deus Ex
- Blame EU inconsistancies for everything. The late coming of the PT really helped this.
Yes. The late coming of the PT helped this a lot. But we have to deal with the inconsitancies somehow. Now the thoughts of most EU writers (at least Anderson who did the back story of Kun and the TOTJ) were that Luke has to be one of the strongest force users developing faster than anyone else. You have inconsistancies even in the developing of both Skywalkers seing that it took Anakin 10 years to become a Jedi Knight where it took Luke 4 years.
The question is how much can characters develop their skills compared to Luke / Anakin if Anakin is said to be the most powerful force user ever (raw potential - fact given by Lucas) ? Basically Anakin was lacking of maturity and not force powers therefore it took him longer to become a Jedi Knight compared to people who started training while already being adults (like Luke). So we can assume that the required force powers can be learned quite fast at least by people like Luke / Anakin. But how much power can people with less raw potential (as far as it's told) develop in less time ?
- It is not likely that much information from 4,000 made it to the future era. For one, Ossus was destroyed. Dantooine was razed to the ground and the information either lost, stolen, or both. Malachor V is likely to be destroyed (Yes, it's Sith, but still, my point). Korriban was razed and raided. The jedi order itself was nearly elminated shortly after the time of Exar Kun. Really, some of the havens for Jedi knowledge include (presumably) Coruscant, a few select places, and Telos in Atris' sanctuary. Everything else was wiped out. To say the PT jedi must have had all the comprehensive knowledge from before is like saying the British museum should have damn near every piece of jewelry and pottery from ancient Egypt. There are so many places it could have been lost entirely.
The main archieves of the Jedi Order where always located on Coruscant. We know that the Sith wiped out the Jedi (Nihilus did much of the work - Sion's assasins did some too). But the archieves on Coruscants where never touched as far as we know. Would make no sense if you keep in mind that the Jedi always were closely related to the Republic and Coruscant was the Republics capitol planet and it never fell until the Yuuzhan Vong attack.
- This isn't my opinion, but you mentioned something about midi-chlorians and the ancient jedi being trained; well, midi-chlorians are apparently genetic. Families of strong Force connections existed frequently back then, and there didn't appear to be apprehensions about having children, marrying, etc.Well, as of KOTOR II, the jedi were nearly wiped out. Major bloodlines with high midi-chlorian counts ceased to exist. Now I'm going out on a limb here, but it would make sense that stronger Force users ceased to exist in large numbers beyond this time period, or perhaps at all. That might be why Anakin was such a prodigy, and by all accounts he was artificially made by the Sith (If you don't believe in this theory, fine. I do.)
You are right. There were families with strong connections to the force (e.g. the Quel-Droma family) and maybe some of them ceased to exist in KotoR times. But from Kotor times on you have 3,000 years to the PT where such bloodlines could have grown again since their were no apprehensions about having children and marrying until the Ruusan reformation.
And as far as we know even in those times two force users having children was quite an exception. Nomi Sunrider wasn't a Jedi when she married her husband. The farther of Ulic and Cay also wasn't a force practioneer. Yet even families that only contained of force users (the entire family of the rulers of Onderon contained of dark side practioners for 300 years) didn't spawn overpowered beings (if compared to the PT Jedi).
So you see, it IS possible that stronger Force users existed in the past. You just brought up a decent argument as to why they would.
Arguing like this you can also say that the concept of Midichlorian testing was developed somewhere between KotoR and PT times making the Jedi able to do some mass recruitments in the systems belonging to the Republic - thereby recruiting "strong" force users in unbelieveable masses which would leave the PT Jedi being the "top of billions" while the ancient Jedi were just discovered by coincidences.
The question is how much can characters develop their skills compared to Luke / Anakin if Anakin is said to be the most powerful force user ever (raw potential - fact given by Lucas) ? Basically Anakin was lacking of maturity and not force powers therefore it took him longer to become a Jedi Knight compared to people who started training while already being adults (like Luke). So we can assume that the required force powers can be learned quite fast at least by people like Luke / Anakin. But how much power can people with less raw potential (as far as it's told) develop in less time ?
Good question. But do Luke and Anakin really outrank prodigies and adult jedi like Corran Horn, Ulic or Nomi SUnrider when the two became jedi knights?
The main archieves of the Jedi Order where always located on Coruscant. We know that the Sith wiped out the Jedi (Nihilus did much of the work - Sion's assasins did some too). But the archieves on Coruscants where never touched as far as we know. Would make no sense if you keep in mind that the Jedi always were closely related to the Republic and Coruscant was the Republics capitol planet and it never fell until the Yuuzhan Vong attack.
Seems likely that Coruscant survived relatively unscathed, but other bastions of Jedidom didn't. Ossus was a welath of knowledge, and I'm sure the artifacts, holocrons, and such lost there and the other mentioned places had an effect on the PT jedi's possible knowledge. In any case, their knowledge cannot be near as you suggest because of this. There are pieces missing.
You are right. There were families with strong connections to the force (e.g. the Quel-Droma family) and maybe some of them ceased to exist in KotoR times. But from Kotor times on you have 3,000 years to the PT where such bloodlines could have grown again since their were no apprehensions about having children and marrying until the Ruusan reformation.
I'm not sure you get the idea really... The Jedi Civil War was like a Force user's virtual genocide. A large portion of Force users strong enough to be detected by the Sith assassins were destroyed over a five year period. Saying that such bloodlines were effectively regrown in three thousands years isn't exactly reasonable; this is comparable to the American Indians in a few millenia from now regrowing into a nation of their own equivalent with their former holdings. Honestly, time dilutes blood; it doesn't strengthen it. When people die, their genetic DNA is lost with them. When people die in numbers like the jedi did, their lineage mostly stops there.
And as far as we know even in those times two force users having children was quite an exception. Nomi Sunrider wasn't a Jedi when she married her husband. The farther of Ulic and Cay also wasn't a force practioneer. Yet even families that only contained of force users (the entire family of the rulers of Onderon contained of dark side practioners for 300 years) didn't spawn overpowered beings (if compared to the PT Jedi).
Correction: Far as we've seen, it's the exception. This doesn't preclude that jedi had children really. Certainly there are many many families of Force users within the Order. I'd also like to point out that the descendants of Freedan Nadd further stress my earlier point: they were inferior to Nadd despite their lineage and Sith techniques and considerable power. Obviously, the blood did not grow stronger over the years, but weaker.
Arguing like this you can also say that the concept of Midichlorian testing was developed somewhere between KotoR and PT times making the Jedi able to do some mass recruitments in the systems belonging to the Republic - thereby recruiting "strong" force users in unbelieveable masses which would leave the PT Jedi being the "top of billions" while the ancient Jedi were just discovered by coincidences.
There is no evidence of "mass recruitment" into the jedi order. One, the jedi order was smaller in PT times then it was before. Two, most major characters in the series were found coincidentally or accidentily. Three, the process obviously isn't flawless; Obi-Wan (teh über-Wan) was nearly sent to the Agricultural Corps. Four, there is no evidence ever of a mass recruitment. Five, saying that the PT jedi were the top of billions is really flimsy considering my above points.
This is probabyl BS, but I heard somewhere that the Durron family is a decendent of the Droma family. Can anyone confirm this? Seems shaky to me.
The Jedi also lost all of the knowledge on the Chu'unthor when is crashed on Dathomir(Yoda didn't feel like killing them over a few books, I guess). There was something else I was going to add, but I forgot it.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
Good question. But do Luke and Anakin really outrank prodigies and adult jedi like Corran Horn, Ulic or Nomi SUnrider when the two became jedi knights?
Can we tell ? What we can say is that Anakin was able to pacify planets where Ulic failed at the same task on Onderon. Hell...you have Ulic running into a city that is in the grip of the darkside for three centuries and he doesn't even realize it. He was standing at the side of a Sith Witch (Queen Amanoa) and having her command him around to act very not-Jedi-like and didn't realize that fact where Anakin knows when he crosses the Code somewhere or somebody is acting against it.
So Anakin seems to be more skilled than Ulic in terms of "being a Jedi" and that says a lot keeping in mind who Anakin is.
Seems likely that Coruscant survived relatively unscathed, but other bastions of Jedidom didn't. Ossus was a welath of knowledge, and I'm sure the artifacts, holocrons, and such lost there and the other mentioned places had an effect on the PT jedi's possible knowledge. In any case, their knowledge cannot be near as you suggest because of this. There are pieces missing.
They used to store some stuff on Ossus, yes. But we know that a great amount of knowledge must have been on Coruscant since it's later used by Palpatine (e.g. the Holocron of Vodo). So they did lose some knowledge but if you just have a look at the size of the archieves (compare the ones on Dantooine with that what is shown on Coruscant) it seems that the PT Jedi actually had more knowledge to access than the people in ancient times had. At least they had twice or four times the knowledge that was stored on Dantooine and we know that this was enough to spawn Revan.
I'm not sure you get the idea really... The Jedi Civil War was like a Force user's virtual genocide. A large portion of Force users strong enough to be detected by the Sith assassins were destroyed over a five year period. Saying that such bloodlines were effectively regrown in three thousands years isn't exactly reasonable; this is comparable to the American Indians in a few millenia from now regrowing into a nation of their own equivalent with their former holdings. Honestly, time dilutes blood; it doesn't strengthen it. When people die, their genetic DNA is lost with them. When people die in numbers like the jedi did, their lineage mostly stops there.
This is:
a) Assuming that their were "stronger" bloodlines in the past than theire are in the PT and this is what it is: an assumption.
b) Assuming that the Sith assasins kill everyone. In fact they "missed" Katarr and entire planet filled with force users and they "missed" the Jedi Masters hiding. In fact their could be hundrets or even thousands of Jedi left after the Sith War if they did hide on similar places than the Masters did. We know Bastilla is still alive in KotoR II times and we also know that their are still characters that can develop into powerful Jedi (e.g. the Handmaiden, Atton) not to mention characters we don't know (until now) what happened to them (Revan, the Exile).
Imagine somebody like Revan with all his knowledge participating in the rebuilt of the Jedi Order after the Sith War. Imagine all the knowledge stored on Telos being used (we know that the pre-Ruusan Sith brotherhood was started by somebody that stole a Sith Holocron from the Jedi Archieves on Coruscant). The PT Jedi could have posessed far more knowledge than you think they have and most likely they had - at least they had everything archieved from KotoR II times on.
Correction: Far as we've seen, it's the exception. This doesn't preclude that jedi had children really. Certainly there are many many families of Force users within the Order. I'd also like to point out that the descendants of Freedan Nadd further stress my earlier point: they were inferior to Nadd despite their lineage and Sith techniques and considerable power. Obviously, the blood did not grow stronger over the years, but weaker.
Now I have to correct you again:
First: of course the Jedi (meaning two Jedi) could have children but where would that lead ? They can only receive 50 % of the genes from their parents (each father and mother) so if you take two force users having a midi-chlorian count of 3000 each their children would again have a midi-chlorian count of 3000 (1500 + 1500)at max. That leads exactly nowhere.
Second: The descendants of Nadd weren't Nadd's children. They simply used Nadd's teachings. So this has nothing to do with "blood". I was simply saying that if you take two force users their children won't be more powerful than the parents. On Onderon it worked like that:
Force sensitive father + force sensitive mother = force sensitive children, then that children again married force sensitives. In fact that can lead to children not having any force powers...seen as the daughter of Ommin and Amanoa (Galia) didn't seem to have any force powers.
There is no evidence of "mass recruitment" into the jedi order.
There is...Qui-Gon told Shmi that if Anakin would have been born in Republic space the Jedi would have found him. That implies that they tested many or maybe even every child born in Republic space for their midi-chlorian count.
One, the jedi order was smaller in PT times then it was before.
Your proof for that being ? With millions of worlds to protect the Jedi could instantly send 200 Jedi to Geonosis. You have more Jedi there than there were present at the attack on the Star Forge. Even to destroy Kun the Jedi only send "hundrets" and not "thousands" of force users and that was a battle they planed before. Saying that the PT order is smaller than the ancient order seems to be very farfetched for me.
Two, most major characters in the series were found coincidentally or accidentily.
Again because they didn't grow up on Republic worlds. Mace Windu was found on an ass-backward planet, same goes for Anakin. All other "major characters" were found in republic space and were trained from infancy on (Qui-Gon, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Dooku).
Three, the process obviously isn't flawless; Obi-Wan (teh über-Wan) was nearly sent to the Agricultural Corps.
Maybe it was the flaw to not send him to the Agricultural Corps thinking of the "what ifs". What if Qui-Gon had a stronger (force power) Padawan on his side when facing Maul ? What if a stronger force user (or Qui-Gon himself) would have trained Anakin.
Four, there is no evidence ever of a mass recruitment. Five, saying that the PT jedi were the top of billions is really flimsy considering my above points.
If they were able to find every being powerful enough to become a Jedi Knight within Republic space (Qui-Gon said this), keeping the fact in mind that there are millions of planets some of them having more than one force user shown in the PT (Corellia, the homeworld of Yoda and Yaddle, Iridonia) that will result in the PT Jedi being the top of millions.
Hell...they had enough people to sort many of them out to serve in the Agricultural Corps - doesn't that fact make you think ?
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
This is:
a) Assuming that their were "stronger" bloodlines in the past than theire are in the PT and this is what it is: an assumption.
b) Assuming that the Sith assasins kill everyone. In fact they "missed" Katarr and entire planet filled with force users and they "missed" the Jedi Masters hiding.
They missed three out of hundreds, if not thousands. They did a better job than Palpatine in fact. And Nihilus got Katarr.
Can we tell ? What we can say is that Anakin was able to pacify planets where Ulic failed at the same task on Onderon. Hell...you have Ulic running into a city that is in the grip of the darkside for three centuries and he doesn't even realize it. He was standing at the side of a Sith Witch (Queen Amanoa) and having her command him around to act very not-Jedi-like and didn't realize that fact where Anakin knows when he crosses the Code somewhere or somebody is acting against it.So Anakin seems to be more skilled than Ulic in terms of "being a Jedi" and that says a lot keeping in mind who Anakin is.[/quote
And as you said, the Jedi Code was far more ambiguous during Ulic's time. And ultimately, Anakin fell as well, so the degree of pre-fall wavering becomes irrelevant.
[quote]Imagine somebody like Revan with all his knowledge participating in the rebuilt of the Jedi Order after the Sith War. Imagine all the knowledge stored on Telos being used (we know that the pre-Ruusan Sith brotherhood was started by somebody that stole a Sith Holocron from the Jedi Archieves on Coruscant). The PT Jedi could have posessed far more knowledge than you think they have and most likely they had - at least they had everything archieved from KotoR II times on.
And yet, when a Sith came knocking, they didn't know what to make of it. When the clone wars started, hundreds of Jedi fell because they weren't prepared for full-scale combat and much preferred diplomacy. There are a fair amount of evidence suggesting the Jedi grew weaker over time, not stronger.
Now I have to correct you again:
First: of course the Jedi (meaning two Jedi) could have children but where would that lead ? They can only receive 50 % of the genes from their parents (each father and mother) so if you take two force users having a midi-chlorian count of 3000 each their children would again have a midi-chlorian count of 3000 (1500 + 1500)at max. That leads exactly nowhere.
Second: The descendants of Nadd weren't Nadd's children. They simply used Nadd's teachings. So this has nothing to do with "blood". I was simply saying that if you take two force users their children won't be more powerful than the parents. On Onderon it worked like that:
Force sensitive father + force sensitive mother = force sensitive children, then that children again married force sensitives. In fact that can lead to children not having any force powers...seen as the daughter of Ommin and Amanoa (Galia) didn't seem to have any force powers.
That's not how hereditary works. You're right, the offspring will have 50% of its genetic material from each parent, but you can't simply roughly translate the midichlorians from one to another. Yes, having powerful parents will make you far more disposed to having great power yourself, but it is far from a guarantee, many of the greatest Jedi come from lowly backgrounds and born to force insensitives, and offspring of jedi aren't guaranteed to be great Jedi, and sometimes their bloodlines won't resurface until later generations.
Hereditary is too complex a science to assign it a 50/50 and a number.
There is...Qui-Gon told Shmi that if Anakin would have been born in Republic space the Jedi would have found him. That implies that they tested many or maybe even every child born in Republic space for their midi-chlorian count.
Testing every child would be impractical. It's more likely that he was referring to Anakin being a slave in Hutt Space, where credits and Republic law don't really apply.
Can we tell ? What we can say is that Anakin was able to pacify planets where Ulic failed at the same task on Onderon. Hell...you have Ulic running into a city that is in the grip of the darkside for three centuries and he doesn't even realize it. He was standing at the side of a Sith Witch (Queen Amanoa) and having her command him around to act very not-Jedi-like and didn't realize that fact where Anakin [b]knows when he crosses the Code somewhere or somebody is acting against it.
So Anakin seems to be more skilled than Ulic in terms of "being a Jedi" and that says a lot keeping in mind who Anakin is.[/B]
Yeah, Anakin knows the code. And he violated it at every turn. And the ENTIRE PT JEDI ORDER was practically having tea with one of two sith lords of their time and -they- couldn't even sense his deceipt! Come on now.
They used to store some stuff on Ossus, yes. But we know that a great amount of knowledge must have been on Coruscant since it's later used by Palpatine (e.g. the Holocron of Vodo). So they did lose some knowledge but if you just have a look at the size of the archieves (compare the ones on Dantooine with that what is shown on Coruscant) it seems that the PT Jedi actually had more knowledge to access than the people in ancient times had. At least they had twice or four times the knowledge that was stored on Dantooine and we know that this was enough to spawn Revan.
This operates on the assumption that these archives were entirely jedi-related. The Jedi order at Coruscant taught children from birth. This includes math, diplomacy, history, etc. The size of the archives isn't reflective of what specifically is within. You can have the largest library in the nation, but to say that people living near it have more knowledge in say, military history as opposed to a group of people who have access to a smaller library that is more military history than general material. The point is, Ossus is noted for Jedi lore, and Dantooine was said to be a terrible loss of jedi knowledge and artifacts. I don't see any real reason to assume that Coruscant is better than those in knowledge.
This is:
a) Assuming that their were "stronger" bloodlines in the past than theire are in the PT and this is what it is: an assumption.
Seems reasonable. Force users in the past are incredibly strong compared to PT era counterparts and as you've said with relatively little training. It would make sense that they have higher midi-chlorian counts then those after them, since this is something that dilutes with the natural flow of time and events. I'd say it's a reasonable assumption.
b) Assuming that the Sith assasins kill everyone. In fact they "missed" Katarr and entire planet filled with force users and they "missed" the Jedi Masters hiding. In fact their could be hundrets or even thousands of Jedi left after the Sith War if they did hide on similar places than the Masters did. We know Bastilla is still alive in KotoR II times and we also know that their are still characters that can develop into powerful Jedi (e.g. the Handmaiden, Atton) not to mention characters we don't know (until now) what happened to them (Revan, the Exile).
You prove to me there are hundreds or thousands of surviving jedi and I'll take this into consideration.
Imagine somebody like Revan with all his knowledge participating in the rebuilt of the Jedi Order after the Sith War. Imagine all the knowledge stored on Telos being used (we know that the pre-Ruusan Sith brotherhood was started by somebody that stole a Sith Holocron from the Jedi Archieves on Coruscant). The PT Jedi could have posessed far more knowledge than you think they have and most likely they had - at least they had everything archieved from KotoR II times on.
This needs to be proven effectively. I don't see it based on what I've seen here and what has been presented. Instead of you -assuming- they must have knowledge from KOTOR II times on, you should work better to convince me of this. ANd the rest of us.
Now I have to correct you again:
First: of course the Jedi (meaning two Jedi) could have children but where would that lead ? They can only receive 50 % of the genes from their parents (each father and mother) so if you take two force users having a midi-chlorian count of 3000 each their children would again have a midi-chlorian count of 3000 (1500 + 1500)at max. That leads exactly nowhere.
More numbers bullshit. Nai, do you not understand that there are no exact figures and sciences for this kinds of situations? You're the same person who tries to tell me Luke is 25% Force. Hell, he looks pretty tangible to me.
Second: The descendants of Nadd weren't Nadd's children. They simply used Nadd's teachings. So this has nothing to do with "blood". I was simply saying that if you take two force users their children won't be more powerful than the parents. On Onderon it worked like that:
Force sensitive father + force sensitive mother = force sensitive children, then that children again married force sensitives. In fact that can lead to children not having any force powers...seen as the daughter of Ommin and Amanoa (Galia) didn't seem to have any force powers.
They're not his children? Then why the hell was I under the strong impression that Freedan Nadd's descendants ruled the planet for what? 500 years? Did they do that by ... not having his genetic material? And let's hear this- you PROVE to me that genetic Force abilities don't fade with time. You SHOW me how the children of Ommin and Amanoa are clearly not possessing of Force powers and that they are not Force sensitive. Then tell me exactly how it is that Nadd's line got weaker if this isn't the case?
There is...Qui-Gon told Shmi that if Anakin would have been born in Republic space the Jedi would have found him. That implies that they tested many or maybe even every child born in Republic space for their midi-chlorian count.
No, it doesn't. It implies the liklihood of the jedi finding him would have been higher. He doesn't say explicitly that they ran mass recruitment and if that's your stance you need to prove up.
Your proof for that being ? With millions of worlds to protect the Jedi could instantly send 200 Jedi to Geonosis. You have more Jedi there than there were present at the attack on the Star Forge. Even to destroy Kun the Jedi only send "hundrets" and not "thousands" of force users and that was a battle they planed before. Saying that the PT order is smaller than the ancient order seems to be very farfetched for me.
Assumption # 1- The 200 jedi had to do with jedi being spread out to cover and protect millions of solar systems. Despite claims that Coruscant is the cetralised focal point of the jedi order, somehow they were able to field 200 jedi from -other- locations.
Assumption #2- That we actually saw every jedi in the Star Forge scenario. The battle -was- ragingin on for the time it took Revan and his crew to tromp through the place.
Again because they didn't grow up on Republic worlds. Mace Windu was found on an ass-backward planet, same goes for Anakin. All other "major characters" were found in republic space and were trained from infancy on (Qui-Gon, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Dooku).
I already addressed this.
Maybe it was the flaw to not send him to the Agricultural Corps thinking of the "what ifs". What if Qui-Gon had a stronger (force power) Padawan on his side when facing Maul ? What if a stronger force user (or Qui-Gon himself) would have trained Anakin.
Where did this come from? My point was that despite their supposively iron-clad testing procedure, they actually DID send one of their best Jedi to the Agricultural Corps. Qui-Gon rescued Obi-Wan from there and he became one of the most important jedi in the PT era. Yeah, oops.
If they were able to find [b]every being powerful enough to become a Jedi Knight within Republic space (Qui-Gon said this), keeping the fact in mind that there are millions of planets some of them having more than one force user shown in the PT (Corellia, the homeworld of Yoda and Yaddle, Iridonia) that will result in the PT Jedi being the top of millions.
Hell...they had enough people to sort many of them out to serve in the Agricultural Corps - doesn't that fact make you think ? [/B]
Assumption #1- They had the means and clout, and manpower to find -ever- single being powerful enough to become a jedi before they were "too old" to become one.
Assumption #2- There was only one Force user found by the jedi. Thus, there can only be that one on that planet. The blood test doesn't lie, you know. And they can administer it to billions of people. Really.
Assumption #3- The size of the Agricultural Corps.
Way to go there.
Originally posted by Illustrious
And yet, when a Sith came knocking, they didn't know what to make of it. When the clone wars started, hundreds of Jedi fell because they weren't prepared for full-scale combat and much preferred diplomacy. There are a fair amount of evidence suggesting the Jedi grew weaker over time, not stronger.
The ancient Jedi needed hundrets of beings to overcome Nadd and Kun - really stronger than the PT ones ? They preferred diplomacy - what did the ancients do ? Prefer wars ?
Hell...Arca Jeth being one of the most powerful beings in ancient times was killed by battledroids. Do you want to argue that he was stronger than Yoda ? The entire order in KotoR times was wiped out by some Sith Assasins and one single Sith Lord - again did the do better than the PT Jedi ?
You have very few "top of the line" force users (like Nomi Sunrider) now throw them into a fight with PT "top of the line" force users. Personally I don't see Nomi outduelling Dooku, Mace or Yoda.
That's not how hereditary works. You're right, the offspring will have 50% of its genetic material from each parent, but you can't simply roughly translate the midichlorians from one to another. Yes, having powerful parents will make you far more disposed to having great power yourself, but it is far from a guarantee, many of the greatest Jedi come from lowly backgrounds and born to force insensitives, and offspring of jedi aren't guaranteed to be great Jedi, and sometimes their bloodlines won't resurface until later generations.
I know that this isn't how herditary works exactly but it doesn't work like Janus seems to think about it either (force user + force user = more powerful force user, done over generations = over powerful force users).
Testing every child would be impractical. It's more likely that he was referring to Anakin being a slave in Hutt Space, where credits and Republic law don't really apply.
Impractical ? Testing a child only takes seconds where would that be "impractical" ? You take a blood sample and check it for medi-chlorian count and if the count is above a certain number the child is powerful enough to become a Jedi. Now tell me where this would be "impractical" ? And why the hell would the Jedi not do that if they want to train every force with a potential that is great enough to develop into a threat ?
I know that this isn't how herditary works exactly but it doesn't work like Janus seems to think about it either (force user force user = more powerful force user, done over generations = over powerful force users).
(There is this square thing that they use, but you have to trace back through every generation to get it really accuret. It takes a lot of time and there isn't enough actual Star Wars to do this. Wait 100 years when they've made Star Wars as detailed as real life.
Impractical ? Testing a child only takes seconds where would that be "impractical" ? You take a blood sample and check it for medi-chlorian count and if the count is above a certain number the child is powerful enough to become a Jedi. Now tell me where this would be "impractical" ? And why the hell would the Jedi not do that if they want to train every force with a potential that is great enough to develop into a threat ?
(You need to realize that even if the actual testing of a child only takes a few seconds, they can't get to everyone child in that amount of time. Even if they did it at the extreme speed of 1 every minute for each person, then it would take at MINIMUM 68,493 years to test every three generations if that was all that every Jedi did all the time. And they wouldn't be anle to train all them, because they would be testing others. It is cleary impractical to test everyone.)
(68,493 years in also assuming that every person in the galaxy was killed by the Yuuzhan Vong, as that is the best estimate to the number of people alive in the galaxy. The true number is most like several times this. Remember, 68,943 years for every 100 years of people, or however long the average lifespan of the aveage galatic citizen is.)
The ancient Jedi needed hundrets of beings to overcome Nadd and Kun - really stronger than the PT ones ? They preferred diplomacy - what did the ancients do ? Prefer wars ?
Hell...Arca Jeth being one of the most powerful beings in ancient times was killed by battledroids. Do you want to argue that he was stronger than Yoda ? The entire order in KotoR times was wiped out by some Sith Assasins and one single Sith Lord - again did the do better than the PT Jedi ?
And you have the entire PT jedi order being killed by Clone troopers and a half-rate Sith lord and his barely-jedi knight pawn. Please. Don't oversimplify things to garner support.
You have very few "top of the line" force users (like Nomi Sunrider) now throw them into a fight with PT "top of the line" force users. Personally I don't see Nomi outduelling Dooku, Mace or Yoda.
Define "top of the line" before we get into your opinion and wordplay here, Nai.
I know that this isn't how herditary works exactly but it doesn't work like Janus seems to think about it either (force user + force user = more powerful force user, done over generations = over powerful force users).
WTF? Did you misunderstand me like eight times today or what? I said force users bloodlines get WEAKER with time, not stronger. Even if they keep it in the family, it probably increases the chance of force sensitivity but it sure as hell does become an exact number science like you insinuate. If that were true, no child in our world could ever mentally surpass his parents, right?
Impractical ? Testing a child only takes seconds where would that be "impractical" ? You take a blood sample and check it for medi-chlorian count and if the count is above a certain number the child is powerful enough to become a Jedi. Now tell me where this would be "impractical" ? And why the hell would the Jedi [b]not do that if they want to train every force with a potential that is great enough to develop into a threat ? [/B]
There are MILLIONS of star systems!
Billions of people on one planet!
Who the hell is gonna stick every kid on each planet and whisk them away for jedi training? Answer me that please!
Originally posted by Deus Ex
This operates on the assumption that these archives were entirely jedi-related. The Jedi order at Coruscant taught children from birth. This includes math, diplomacy, history, etc. The size of the archives isn't reflective of what specifically is within. You can have the largest library in the nation, but to say that people living near it have more knowledge in say, military history as opposed to a group of people who have access to a smaller library that is more military history than general material. The point is, Ossus is noted for Jedi lore, and Dantooine was said to be a terrible loss of jedi knowledge and artifacts. I don't see any real reason to assume that Coruscant is better than those in knowledge.
Oh great. Dantooine's archieves are filled with Jedi lore, so are the ones on Ossus but the main archieve on Coruscant only has math, diplomacy and historical stuff on it - same things that were taught on Ossus and Dantooine.
Why would the archieves on Coruscant would be bigger if they not stored Jedi lore in it ? The general informations had to be accessable on Dantooine too.
Seems reasonable. Force users in the past are incredibly strong compared to PT era counterparts and as you've said with relatively little training. It would make sense that they have higher midi-chlorian counts then those after them, since this is something that dilutes with the natural flow of time and events. I'd say it's a reasonable assumption.
*cough*
Again...Anakin is the person with the highest midi-chlorian count ever (fact given by Lucas) and after 10 years of training (being twice of what some of the ancient people had) he wasn't able to overcome Dooku. Now...what does that tell you ?
You prove to me there are hundreds or thousands of surviving jedi and I'll take this into consideration.
You prove to me they all were killed...this again leads nowhere...
This needs to be proven effectively. I don't see it based on what I've seen here and what has been presented. Instead of you -assuming- they must have knowledge from KOTOR II times on, you should work better to convince me of this. ANd the rest of us.
Assuming they had knowledge from KOTOR II times on ? Where should they have lost the knowledge from KOTOR II times on since there was only the archieves on Coruscant left and they were never touched from KOTOR II times to PT times ?
They're not his children? Then why the hell was I under the strong impression that Freedan Nadd's descendants ruled the planet for what? 500 years? Did they do that by ... not having his genetic material? And let's hear this- you PROVE to me that genetic Force abilities don't fade with time. You SHOW me how the children of Ommin and Amanoa are clearly not possessing of Force powers and that they are not Force sensitive. Then tell me exactly how it is that Nadd's line got weaker if this isn't the case?
You better proof to me Nadd had children...oh...
Most likely the "strongest" persons simply took over when Nadd was killed. Do you really think the Jedi would have left Nadd's children alive or on the planet to rule it after exterminating Nadd ? Most likely not...
Show you that the children of Amanoa and Ommin weren't force users ? Gilia (their daughter) hasn't shown any force use being around twenty years old. Talia (Gilias daughter - ruling Onderon in KotoR II) also didn't show any force powers.
Assumption # 1- The 200 jedi had to do with jedi being spread out to cover and protect millions of solar systems. Despite claims that Coruscant is the cetralised focal point of the jedi order, somehow they were able to field 200 jedi from -other- locations.
The fact that they (instantly) mobilized an amount of Jedi that is close to the amount the ancient order send to confront Kun (where they had time to plan that attack) makes it very unlikely that the ancient Order is greater than the PT one.
Assumption #2- That we actually saw every jedi in the Star Forge scenario. The battle -was- ragingin on for the time it took Revan and his crew to tromp through the place.
We saw only one Master (Vandar) being present where you have the entire council raiding Geonosis. We only saw a few Jedi (hell...it's even said that there are only a "few" Jedi present) and now you want to tell me that there is an unseen strike force of thousands of force users somewhere despite the fact that we hardly saw a dozen of Jedi in that battle ?
Assumption #1- They had the means and clout, and manpower to find -ever- single being powerful enough to become a jedi before they were "too old" to become one.
They don't have to use manpower since midi-chlorian testing can be easily done by machines. Take a blood sample and test it. This can be done to every new born child if you want it without needing a single Jedi in that process.
Assumption #2- There was only one Force user found by the jedi. Thus, there can only be that one on that planet. The blood test doesn't lie, you know. And they can administer it to billions of people. Really.
See above. Since we never get the number of force users being around in the PT there could be dozens of "force users" per planet. The question is: Are they strong enough to become Jedi (we saw that all Koruuns were force sensitive but only Mace Windu was trained - as far as we know).
Originally posted by Deus Ex
There are MILLIONS of star systems!Billions of people on one planet!
Who the hell is gonna stick every kid on each planet and whisk them away for jedi training? Answer me that please! [/B]
Simply testing childrens blood when they are born. Doing exactly the same thing most hospitals in industrial countries are doing to newborn childs ? I must be really totally out of my mind assuming that they can do a simple bloodtest to a newborn child having DROIDS doing all the medical work...
Oh great. Dantooine's archieves are filled with Jedi lore, so are the ones on Ossus but the main archieve on Coruscant only has math, diplomacy and historical stuff on it - same things that were taught on Ossus and Dantooine.
Why would the archieves on Coruscant would be bigger if they [b]not stored Jedi lore in it ? The general informations had to be accessable on Dantooine too. [/B]
First, Ossus was considerable. It -was- noted for housing jedi lore in particular. A lot of it. And good quality stuff too.
Dantooine was small, yes. It was not likely to have been built for long term jedi raising. Then again, perhaps it was. It's in-game size might not be honestly reflective of it, since it's also depicted in SW Galaxies and other places.
And my point is you need to prove just what the jedi archives consisted of in the PT era on Coruscant. By all accounts large portions of knowledge were lost over the years and the jedi order itself lost many members in Ruusan. This needs elaboration, not assumption.
*cough*
Again...Anakin is the person with the highest midi-chlorian count ever (fact given by Lucas) and after 10 years of training (being twice of what some of the ancient people had) he wasn't able to overcome Dooku. Now...what does that tell you ?
*Cough* Learn to think outside of the box, Nai. Anakin has the highest midi-chlorian count in the PT era!. You find me an exact quote where Gl says Anakin has the higest count ever, of all time, including EU, and I'll eat this point right up, okay?
You prove to me they all were killed...this again leads nowhere...
"The jedi are all but extinct..." Narration from KOTOR II.
Assuming they had knowledge from KOTOR II times on ? Where should they have lost the knowledge from KOTOR II times on since there was only the archieves on Coruscant left and they were never touched from KOTOR II times to PT times ?
Again, this operates under the ASSUMPTION that A) the Coruscanti archives were comparible to what they are in the PT times as of KOTOR II's end, B) nothing happened to them before this time period, or during say, KOTOR III, and C) this is sufficient knowledge to make the PT jedi better than those before them.
You better proof to me Nadd had children...oh...
Most likely the "strongest" persons simply took over when Nadd was killed. Do you really think the Jedi would have left Nadd's children alive or on the planet to rule it after exterminating Nadd ? Most likely not...
Show you that the children of Amanoa and Ommin weren't force users ? Gilia (their daughter) hasn't shown any force use being around twenty years old. Talia (Gilias daughter - ruling Onderon in KotoR II) also didn't show any force powers.
Damn, you set yourself up something good. First, you don't even know if Nadd's children were hidden or left alone or what, do you? Second, Luke didn't show ANY force powers at twenty either, and he's a friggin' forcegod in the future. So yeah, nice.
The fact that they (instantly) mobilized an amount of Jedi that is close to the amount the ancient order send to confront Kun (where they had time to plan that attack) makes it very unlikely that the ancient Order is greater than the PT one.
So two hundred jedi that were able to be mobilized in the time it took the Jeid order and the Republic to field enough Clone troopers, ships, manned crews and whatnot to attack Genosis is impressive enough to think that they were equal to the ancient jedi order that was able to defeat navies of Sith lords, huh? Yeah, sure. Nice one.
We saw only one Master (Vandar) being present where you have the entire council raiding Geonosis. We only saw a few Jedi (hell...it's even said that there are only a "few" Jedi present) and now you want to tell me that there is an unseen strike force of thousands of force users somewhere despite the fact that we hardly saw a dozen of Jedi in that battle ?
I never implied there were thousands of jedi, Nai. I also don't recall the phrase "there's only a few jedi present", so that requires verification. And lastly, I'm logically pointing out that because we didn't see more jedi there doesn't mean that they weren't there. The Star Forge is huge, you know. Like, big? Also, we have no idea how many jedi were in Vandar's ship or the others, do we? huh.
They don't have to use manpower since midi-chlorian testing can be easily done by machines. Take a blood sample and test it. This can be done to [b]every new born child if you want it without needing a single Jedi in that process.[/B]
Prove this, Nai. Prove to me there was some readily accessible machine on even -half- of the millions of star systems in the SW galaxy and that the denizens of each planet used them and all the good viable jedi went straight to Coruscant and became uber PT era jedi. Prove up.
See above. Since we never get the number of force users being around in the PT there could be dozens of "force users" per planet. The question is: Are they strong enough to become Jedi (we saw that all Koruuns were force sensitive but only Mace Windu was trained - as far as we know).
Indeed, that is the question. But a better one is "Do you really think the PT era Jedi were so efficient and had the means to find each and every good jedi? And assuming for the sake of argument they do, does this mean jack shit when we all know that Force sensitives of presumably higher power were elminated in the hundreds, thousands even?"
Originally posted by Deus Ex
Dantooine was small, yes. It was not likely to have been built for long term jedi raising. Then again, perhaps it was. It's in-game size might not be honestly reflective of it, since it's also depicted in SW Galaxies and other places.
It was built for long term Jedi raising. Malak, Revan and the Exile were all trained on Dantooine.
And my point is you need to prove just what the jedi archives consisted of in the PT era on Coruscant. By all accounts large portions of knowledge were lost over the years and the jedi order itself lost many members in Ruusan. This needs elaboration, not assumption.
Why is that so hard to understand. There is basic knowledge that would be stored in that archieves (history, geography etc.) - the same stuff being stored on Dantooine too since they did train Jedi there the same way they trained Jedi on Coruscant.
Now the Archieve on Dantooine is clearly smaller than the one we saw on Coruscant (AotC) - now the things seen in AotC isn't even all the Jedi had. There is a special archieve that is only accessable if you reach master status (told in the ROTS novel)
Of course the size and the things stored there are unknown. What we know is that this archieve contained descriptions of ancient force techniques (Morichu - used by Yaddle for example) and with the fact that there was no knowledge lost from KotoR II times on (except a single Sith holocron - the things on the Chu'unthor were copies) they must know about every single thing used from that time on.
*Cough* Learn to think outside of the box, Nai. Anakin has the highest midi-chlorian count in the PT era!. You find me an exact quote where Gl says Anakin has the higest count ever, of all time, including EU, and I'll eat this point right up, okay?
Lucas clearly said that Anakin would have become the most powerful force user ever - how often do you want to argue that ?
"The jedi are all but extinct..." Narration from KOTOR II.
That's what Sion said - the same person that thought the Exile was the only Jedi left when those masters were still around and Bastilla too.
Again, this operates under the ASSUMPTION that A) the Coruscanti archives were comparible to what they are in the PT times as of KOTOR II's end, B) nothing happened to them before this time period, or during say, KOTOR III, and C) this is sufficient knowledge to make the PT jedi better than those before them.
There wasn't anything happen to the archieves from KotoR II times to the PT times because Coruscant was never attacked. Who should have attacked Coruscant or mess around with the archieves having no Sith until 2,000 BBY (from KotoR times on) and considering the fact that Coruscant was never attacked from KotoR II to the PT era.
Damn, you set yourself up something good. First, you don't even know if Nadd's children were hidden or left alone or what, do you? Second, Luke didn't show ANY force powers at twenty either, and he's a friggin' forcegod in the future. So yeah, nice.
You can't even prove that Nadd had children (yes...suddenly Sith Lords are falling in love and produce children...this has never happened before but of course it's true for Nadd) so why even talk about it ? Yes...Luke didn't show any force powers but Luke didn't grow up in a family of force users like Gilia (growing up with Ommin and Amanoa) or Talia (growing up with Gilia assuming Gilia had some force powers).
So two hundred jedi that were able to be mobilized in the time it took the Jeid order and the Republic to field enough Clone troopers, ships, manned crews and whatnot to attack Genosis is impressive enough to think that they were equal to the ancient jedi order that was able to defeat navies of Sith lords, huh? Yeah, sure. Nice one.
Navies of Sith Lords ? Where ? Did I miss something ? I was talking about that the ancient Jedi send hundrets of people to deal with a major threat like Kun (so they would most likely have send everything they had) when they had the time to plan their attack where the PT Jedi did attack instantly without having much time to plan.
And are you talking about the ships that already where manned with Clone Troopers when Obi-Wan left Geonosis (you can see that) ?
I never implied there were thousands of jedi, Nai. I also don't recall the phrase "there's only a few jedi present", so that requires verification. And lastly, I'm logically pointing out that because we didn't see more jedi there doesn't mean that they weren't there. The Star Forge is huge, you know. Like, big? Also, we have no idea how many jedi were in Vandar's ship or the others, do we? huh.
Vandar commands the Jedi to protect the Ebon Hawk. You can see a few Jedi starfighters moving in (6 or 12) some of them get destroyed by frontal fire from blaster canons (must be great force users though) and then the only other are those we see inside the SF (which might also be the same that entered the SF on the sides of the Ebon Hawk since they are in the same hangar).
Prove this, Nai. Prove to me there was some readily accessible machine on even -half- of the millions of star systems in the SW galaxy and that the denizens of each planet used them and all the good viable jedi went straight to Coruscant and became uber PT era jedi. Prove up.
a) They have the computers needed on a goddamn star ship from Naboo (seen in TPM). Why would the not have that stuff in a hospital ?
b) Why would the people on Republic planets not use machnines installed by the Jedi considering the fact that the Jedi were well respected at that time. If the Jedi say "test the children" they will most likely test the children. Why would they not ? It's a bloodtest not an organ transplantation.
c) As I already said. The needed midi-chlorian count might be somewhat rare (and I call 10 in 6 billions - for example - rare) still there would be quite some force users with the needed midi-chlorian count.
Indeed, that is the question. But a better one is "Do you really think the PT era Jedi were so efficient and had the means to find each and every good jedi? And assuming for the sake of argument they do, does this mean jack shit when we all know that Force sensitives of presumably higher power were elminated in the hundreds, thousands even?"
Force sensitives of presumably higher power ? Name one single ancient Jedi Knight being more powerful than Mace or Yoda and keep in mind that Arca Jeth - being one of the most powerful - was killed by battledroids. Seems I need some enlightment here...