Yoda vs Ulic

It was built for long term Jedi raising. Malak, Revan and the Exile were all trained on Dantooine.

Proof of this? In fact, I didn't see a single child on the planet. And all three of them were trained on Dantooine, eh? Well, there's evidence of the exile being trained here, yes. The droid's recording. Then again, it's entirely possible that the droid was at another academy elsewhere. All we see are two figures. More likely than not it's at Dantooine, but really... who cares? The point is, you haven't shown me how the archives of Coruscant make PT era jedi know all, like you claim.

Why is that so hard to understand. There is basic knowledge that would be stored in that archieves (history, geography etc.) - the same stuff being stored on Dantooine too since they did train Jedi there the same way they trained Jedi on Coruscant.
Now the Archieve on Dantooine is clearly smaller than the one we saw on Coruscant (AotC) - now the things seen in AotC isn't even all the Jedi had. There is a special archieve that is only accessable if you reach master status (told in the ROTS novel)
Of course the size and the things stored there are unknown. What we know is that this archieve contained descriptions of ancient force techniques (Morichu - used by Yaddle for example) and with the fact that there was no knowledge lost from KotoR II times on (except a single Sith holocron - the things on the Chu'unthor were copies) they must know about every single thing used from that time on.

This is ridiculous. Am I to believe that the jedi successfully kept knowledge and data from right after KOTOR II and they amassed enough to being these mega badasses, as you claim? The entire problem with your stance on the PT jedi, Nai, lies in your inability to prove exactly -what- they know. We already have seen them in action, both in the movies and in the novels, comics, etc. By all accounts they have gotten weaker over the years. And if anything, living for a thousand years complacent, not having to deal with the Sith (Which they thougth extinct even) would make one soft. And it did. The jedi were slain because they let their guard down and they were not good enough. Period. Now, seeing as these Pax Republica Jedi are inferior (and aside from grasping at straws you have not proven otherwise) how can they possibly kill ancient Sith? Ancient Sith are better than their ancient jedi counterparts by far! How does this add up?

Lucas clearly said that Anakin would have become the most powerful force user [b]ever - how often do you want to argue that ?[/B]

I'm arguing YOU. Provide the official source for us to see. I can just as easily claim that GL said Yoda is half monkey, but if I can't prove GL said it and people can verify its every word, why the hell am I gonna sling it around, trying to prove my stance and convince people? Nai, am I supposed to take your word for it that you know GL's word exactly and that it totally elminates the possibility for anyone having more potential and power beyond Anakin? Does this totally elminate any chance of their being NJO Luke or Ragnos or anything simply because of this statement? No, sounds like a serious cop out to me. You want to prove your case, start by providing the proof first. All I've seen out of you is assumptions, conjectures, and nothing behind it.

That's what Sion said - the same person that thought the Exile was the only Jedi left when those masters were still around and Bastilla too.

Hm. So the narration to the game, which is in Sion's voice (and perhaps even from his standpoint) said "The jedi are all but extinct" and he missed the Exile (Which is ridiculous, because in the narration he points out that the exile is the last one) and Bastila and Revan are possibly Jedi -or- Sith and presumably beyond the OUter Rim or even dead (Since no one knows) so this suddenly opens up what? Thousands upon thousands of amazing jedi who were smart enough to hide and last forever and pass their seed on to make the PT era jedi more badass? Please. Get real. This is folly at its height.

There wasn't anything happen to the archieves from KotoR II times to the PT times because Coruscant was never attacked. Who should have attacked Coruscant or mess around with the archieves having no Sith until 2,000 BBY (from KotoR times on) and considering the fact that Coruscant was never attacked from KotoR II to the PT era.

Proof of Coruscant not being attacked in the time span from KOTOR II (About 4,000 years before the battle of Yavin) and the PT era? Honestly, Nai... I sure hope you have something other than your good name to back this one up.

You can't even prove that Nadd had children (yes...suddenly Sith Lords are falling in love and produce children...this has never happened before but of course it's true for Nadd) so why even talk about it ? Yes...Luke didn't show any force powers but Luke didn't grow up in a family of force users like Gilia (growing up with Ommin and Amanoa) or Talia (growing up with Gilia assuming Gilia had some force powers).

First point, the idea of Onderon's descendants being of Nadd's bloodline I'm quite sure is accurate, and I'm gonna go out of my way to prove this to you. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. Simple. Point being, if Nadd had children who carried on the bloodline, and they were strong, but not as strong as him, it's just another instance of force sensitivity getting weaker over the years. And no, Sith don't "fall in love and produce children" any more than tyrants and evil kings produce heirs. Don't be silly. You know exactly what I mean and if you don't, you should learn to examine things more closely. You've already mistaken my words enough tonight.

Second, then it's very likely they weren't A) force sensitive enough or B) perhaps like Illustrious said, it skipped a generation. Either scenario is entirely true, and in particular the first one bodes quite badly for your badass super PT jedi, since Force sensitivity seems to get weaker with time and dilution.

Navies of Sith Lords ? Where ? Did I miss something ? I was talking about that the ancient Jedi send hundrets of people to deal with a major threat like Kun (so they would most likely have send everything they had) when they had the time to plan their attack where the PT Jedi did attack instantly without having much time to plan.

First, you're assuming without any basis or factual grounding that the "hundreds" they sent after Kun were all they had. Second, the idea that the PT jedi did this instantly is ludicrous; they had to scramble fighters, ship crews, arm and get the clones into formation, have a basic plan of attack, etc. Hell, considering how long it takes for Anakin to get to Genosia from Tatooine (same day travel despite being halfway across the galaxy) it's entirely possible the jedi brought two hundred jedi from the temple and met up with the clones elswhere. This is even more plausible when you consider that all of the council jedi (well, more or less) where there. Since they are on Coruscant as shown before, how is this impressive for them that they can load up two hundred jedi.

Really, what I'm wanting to know is how they managed to ready the Clone army that fast. It's unrealistic.

Vandar commands the Jedi to protect the Ebon Hawk. You can see a few Jedi starfighters moving in (6 or 12) some of them get destroyed by frontal fire from blaster canons (must be great force users though) and then the only other are those we see inside the SF (which might also be the same that entered the SF on the sides of the Ebon Hawk since they are in the same hangar).

Point being, this doesn't preclude numbers being absent neccessarily, and this proves jack **** all for anything you've been arguing. So why bother with it?

b) Why would the people on Republic planets not use machnines installed by the Jedi considering the fact that the Jedi were well respected at that time. If the Jedi say "test the children" they will most likely test the children. Why would they not ? It's a bloodtest not an organ transplantation.

I don't care how feasible you think this is in your wildest dreams. I want you to PROVE IT, Nai. Show something for your views, don't just throw them out there and say "oh great, *cough* erm... sigh... this is how it is. I swear! Honest!" You're entire argument has nothing substantial behind it and it only gets worse when you'll argue the little parts but ignore key questions and fail to provide proof.

c) As I already said. The needed midi-chlorian count might be somewhat rare (and I call 10 in 6 billions - for example - rare) still there would be quite some force users with the needed midi-chlorian count.

And this is shown/proven/hinted at where?

Well, I found the evidence that the rulers of Onderon ARE Nadd's descendants...

The Jedi continued to learn more of Iziz's dark secrets. They learned it was under the pall of the dark side. Four hundred years earlier, a Sith student named Freedon Nadd brought the power of the dark side to Onderon, and his descendents included King Ommin and Queen Amanoa, whose forms were riddled with the dark side.

Source: Starwars.com (Ulic's profile)

Originally posted by Deus Ex
The point is, you haven't shown me how the archives of Coruscant make PT era jedi know all, like you claim.

The point is that NJO Luke only used parts of those archieves (in fact very small parts) and developed into a force god. Now people using the same stuff (and even more of it) have actually no knowledge. That fits how ?

This is ridiculous. Am I to believe that the jedi successfully kept knowledge and data from right after KOTOR II and they amassed enough to being these mega badasses, as you claim? The entire problem with your stance on the PT jedi, Nai, lies in your inability to prove exactly -what- they know.

Oh great. You can't even prove what Ragnos can do but still think he's superior to anyone else. You can't prove what force powers Kun, Nadd or Sadow can use in a battle but still they must be superior to anyone else because they're ancient Sith Lords. And again...you can't proof that the ancient Jedi are superior in one single aspect to the PT Jedi but they must be - because for the single reason that they have lived 4,000 years earlier. Your point being what ? That I can't tell what the PT Jedi exactly know where you can't tell what the ancient Jedi / Sith did exactly know - this again leads nowhere...

We already have seen them in action, both in the movies and in the novels, comics, etc. By all accounts they have gotten weaker over the years. And if anything, living for a thousand years complacent, not having to deal with the Sith (Which they thougth extinct even) would make one soft.

Oh yes. Now people get weaker all over a sudden, because there are no "Sith" around. There where still other conflicts Jedi participated in (Stark Hyperspace War / Battles against Mandalorians) and by the skills they displayed so far (movies, EU) there is exactly nothing that makes them look inferior to the ancient Jedi.

And it did. The jedi were slain because they let their guard down and they were not good enough. Period. Now, seeing as these Pax Republica Jedi are inferior (and aside from grasping at straws you have not proven otherwise) how can they possibly kill ancient Sith? Ancient Sith are better than their ancient jedi counterparts by far! How does this add up?

Again you are acting totally out of any logic. The Jedi that were slain used a style with many flaws in fighting circumstances and you can see enough ancient Jedi getting slain even worse. Your point being here ? That ancient and PT Jedi can die in stupid ways ? And the ancient Sith ar by far better than their Jedi counterparts ?
Tell me how Ulic (being a Sith) first had a tough fight with Cay (being a Jedi Knight) and than got his force connection removed by Nomi Sunrider (another Jedi) if he's "better by far". How did they capture Ulic on Coruscant if he's "better by far" ?

I'm arguing YOU. Provide the official source for us to see. I can just as easily claim that GL said Yoda is half monkey, but if I can't prove GL said it and people can verify its every word, why the hell am I gonna sling it around, trying to prove my stance and convince people?

Oh great. Now I'm a liar. Read the interview with GL in "Vanity fair" (February 2005) and you might find the line there if not it's either from theforce.net / starwars.com or the Star Wars Insider. I don't write down my sources for quotes somewhere since I'm not used to throwing faked quotes into somewhere.

Nai, am I supposed to take your word for it that you know GL's word exactly and that it totally elminates the possibility for anyone having more potential and power beyond Anakin? Does this totally elminate any chance of their being NJO Luke or Ragnos or anything simply because of this statement? No, sounds like a serious cop out to me. You want to prove your case, start by providing the proof first. All I've seen out of you is assumptions, conjectures, and nothing behind it.

Now the idea of Anakin simply being the guy with the greatest potential eliminates the chance of NJO Luke (who is Anakin's son having less potential than Anakin) or Ragnos despite the fact that Anakin never developed into full potential ? Great logic, Janus.

Hm. So the narration to the game, which is in Sion's voice (and perhaps even from his standpoint) said "The jedi are all but extinct" and he missed the Exile (Which is ridiculous, because in the narration he points out that the exile is the last one) and Bastila and Revan are possibly Jedi -or- Sith and presumably beyond the OUter Rim or even dead (Since no one knows) so this suddenly opens up what? Thousands upon thousands of amazing jedi who were smart enough to hide and last forever and pass their seed on to make the PT era jedi more badass? Please. Get real. This is folly at its height.

a)
From Sion's point of view all Jedi except the Exile are killed. That's why he was hunting the Exile.

b)
The lightside ending of KotoR is canon so Revan and Bastilla are Jedi in the end. And you're simply ignoring facts. You can see Bastilla and Carth talking on Telos in KotoR 2 and it's a fact that Revan went alone to face the Sith Empire.

Proof of Coruscant not being attacked in the time span from KOTOR II (About 4,000 years before the battle of Yavin) and the PT era? Honestly, Nai... I sure hope you have something other than your good name to back this one up.

There is no indication for Coruscant being attacked in that entire time. You have no Sith around until 2,000 BBY and those never attacked Coruscant (up to 1,000 BBY) and after them there was a time period up peace (to the PT era).

Only proven events that could have had an effect on the archieves would have been:

a) Ulic's attack on Coruscant - pre KotoR
b) Empire taking Coruscant over - past PT
c) Rebel Alliance / New Republic retaking Coruscant - past PT
d) Yuuzhan Vong attack on Coruscant - past PT

So it's quite easy to think about Coruscant never being attacked between KotoR II and PT times when we have never seen the planet being attacked from the beginning of the Republic to the point Ulic attacked it (21,000 years) and in the time period between KotoR II and the PT. It the most fortified planet in the entire Galaxy and since Ulic with the aid of the Mandalorians failed to sucessfully attack the planet what the hell makes you think there could have been an attack past KotoR II times ? Who should have done it ?

First point, the idea of Onderon's descendants being of Nadd's bloodline I'm quite sure is accurate, and I'm gonna go out of my way to prove this to you. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. Simple. Point being, if Nadd had children who carried on the bloodline, and they were strong, but not as strong as him, it's just another instance of force sensitivity getting weaker over the years. And no, Sith don't "fall in love and produce children" any more than tyrants and evil kings produce heirs. Don't be silly. You know exactly what I mean and if you don't, you should learn to examine things more closely. You've already mistaken my words enough tonight.

Even if the Onderon Royal family are descendants of Nadd's bloodline that exactly proofs what considering the fact that we don't know who he had children with ? You're mixing different bloodlines for 300 years and than come up with the conclusion that one of them got weaker - sure it got because mixing it with others. How much ? You have no idea. In fact Amanoa and Ommin still seem to be quite powerful considering the facts that Amanoa fooled Ulic and Ommin kept Arca Jeth as a prisoner with his force powers alone.

And let's have a look at other families: Vima Da-Boda is a direct descant of Nomi Sunrider (7 generations) and was a Jedi Knight in times of the Clone Wars (she is around in the DE comics). Serra Keto (another Clone War Jedi) seems to be a descendant of the Keto family. Actually both didn't seem to have lost much of the force powers their ancient familiy members have shown...

Second, then it's very likely they weren't A) force sensitive enough or B) perhaps like Illustrious said, it skipped a generation. Either scenario is entirely true, and in particular the first one bodes quite badly for your badass super PT jedi, since Force sensitivity seems to get weaker with time and dilution.

In fact you're now saying that the universe started with uber-powerful-force users everywhere and since their bloodlines got weaker the ancient Jedi must be more powerful than the PT Jedi ?
So please tell me how somebody like Ragnos can exist with that theory. The most powerful being in the Sith Empire just popped up out of nowhere after 20,000 years of "force potential degeneration" ? Hell...Ajunta Pall must be the uber asskicker if his bloodline and those of his fellow Dark Jedi spawned something like Ragnos after their bloodlines had 20,000 years to get weaker.

First, you're assuming without any basis or factual grounding that the "hundreds" they sent after Kun were all they had.

The "hundreds" (quote from the JA trilogy) where most likely everything they could have send. Why would they not send anyone possible there ?

Second, the idea that the PT jedi did this instantly is ludicrous; they had to scramble fighters, ship crews, arm and get the clones into formation, have a basic plan of attack, etc. Hell, considering how long it takes for Anakin to get to Genosia from Tatooine (same day travel despite being halfway across the galaxy) it's entirely possible the jedi brought two hundred jedi from the temple and met up with the clones elswhere. This is even more plausible when you consider that all of the council jedi (well, more or less) where there. Since they are on Coruscant as shown before, how is this impressive for them that they can load up two hundred jedi.

You don't get my idea.

a)
The fighters, ship crews, armed clones and anything else were ready. You can see that in AotC when Obi-Wan is on Kamino. He watches the clones entering one of those capital ships. What do you think they're doing there "And now: All people enter the Ship. Fine. And now all people get out of it again. And back into it. And out....I love clones..." ?

b)
Tatooine and Geonosis being on different sides of the Galaxy ? In fact they are very close to each other same counts for Kamino. If you don't thrust me (because I'm a notorious liar nowadays) have a look at this map:
http://www.starwars.idv.tw/starwarsgalaxy.jpg

c)
Coming back to my basical idea. How would the PT Jedi be able to mobilize 200 people instantly (as they did) when the PT Jedi Order is smaller than the ancient Jedi Order (who did never mobilze more than hundrets of people even against major threats like Kun when they had the time to plan their attack). See...you are simply assuming the ancient Jedi Order was bigger without having any proof for it and while pretty much everything contradicts that oppinion.

Really, what I'm wanting to know is how they managed to ready the Clone army that fast. It's unrealistic.

The clone army was ready and when you have a look at the distance between Kamino and Geonosis compared to the distance between Geonosis and Coruscant they could have easily commanded the Clone Army to Geonosis and launch an attack fast. Keep in mind that the Millenium Falcon needed only 7 hours to cross the distance between Tatooine and Alderaan this could have been done quite fast.

I don't care how feasible you think this is in your wildest dreams. I want you to PROVE IT, Nai. Show something for your views, don't just throw them out there and say "oh great, *cough* erm... sigh... this is how it is. I swear! Honest!" You're entire argument has nothing substantial behind it and it only gets worse when you'll argue the little parts but ignore key questions and fail to provide proof.

What the hell ?
They have the machines needed for midichlorian count testing installed in a goddamn starship (TPM) - must be totally uncommon technology if they put it into a starship like a radio being put in cars in our times. Must be something nobody in space had ever came across except the people on Naboo who can build stuff like that into their goddamn starships where it would be most likely not ever be needed. Yes...that sounds completely logical to me. Lmao.

And then we have Qui-Gon:
"Had he been born in the Republic, we would have identified him early, and he would have become Jedi, no doubt..."

Oh yes...that should have been: "Had he been born in the Republic we maybe would have identified him at some time in his life because we have to search all the millions of planets with our bare hands to find some force sensitive people with one Jedi being responsible for 1000 star systems (since their are so few of us). And if some force sensitive with Anakin's potential get's lucky we MAY find him to train him to become a Jedi but I'm not entirely sure."

Does that interpretation fit your idea how "finding force sensitive beings" works ?

And this is shown/proven/hinted at where?

No...despite of the fact what kinds of force user we can see in the PT. For example their are 3 Zabrak force users shown in the PT era (Agen Kolar, Eeth Koth and Darth Maul), 4 if you count Kadrian Sey. Well...how many people live on Iridonia ?
We have two people from Yoda's homeworld on the TPM council. We have two people from Shili (Shaak Ti and one of the Younglings that can be seen in AotC). We have two people from Mirial (Luminara Unduli and Bariss Offee) and we have Stass Allie and Adi Gallia who are cousins.

So we have enough examples for multiple force users coming from a single planet in the same time period.

And I'm still waiting that you give me the name of one single ancient Jedi that is more powerful than Yoda or Mace...must be an easy thing to do if all ancient Jedi are uber-powerful force users compared to the PT ones.

The point is that NJO Luke only used parts of those archieves (in fact very small parts) and developed into a force god. Now people using the same stuff (and even more of it) have actually no knowledge. That fits how ?

Well, for one thing, NJO is a certified forcegod. That's apparent. We can see it. But you, you're claiming the PT jedi are something more than what we see. Specifically, that they have amazing saber skills better than anyone else; more knowledge of the Force (despite earlier Force users like Kreia using far more in their bag of tricks); the ability to work perfectly (better even than older eras of jedi) to fight wars and enemies and such despite never having a use for it. I mean, come on, Nai... you're talking about an era where there is one guy who practices the true saber-to-saber style. Just one. This is not an era of war-oriented, battleready and Sith slaying jedi. Period. The difference between NJO Luke (Which is stupid, but I've ranted about this before) and your idea of the PT jedi being great is.... there's actual instances of NJO Luke doing such things. All instances of the PT jedi's powers and abilities are before us, too. Guess what? Nothing impressive.

Oh great. You can't even prove what Ragnos can do but still think he's superior to anyone else.

This is obvious, Nai. I'd think with you being the ultimate logician you'd realize this: the narration in the Tales of the Jedi comics label the ancient Sith as "godlike" (Yes, that's the exact term.) and that Marka Ragnos ruled over these godlike Sith for a century and a half. Seeing as how we like to employ Occum's Razor when it can be applied, it's more reasonable to assume he was the best of the best (Which it even says IN narration) then to assume he wasn't worth nothing. If you're arguing otherwise, you need to get proof. Bad example, Nai.

You can't prove what force powers Kun, Nadd or Sadow can use in a battle but still they must be superior to anyone else because they're ancient Sith Lords.

Nai, this is obvious. Sadow, Kun and Nadd all displayed Force mastery and feats that couldn't be replicated by anyone in the PT. Period. No one in the PT could destroy a star system nor even hinted that they knew how. No one in the PT era ever had a hundred jedi and a Republic fleet sent after them before. No on else usurped the role Dark Lord of the Sith despite having severe, cutthroat competition. It's only natural that these Sith contained amazing power well above the PT era force users. And since to imply otherwise begs for proof, I'll let you work on that.

And again...you can't proof that the ancient Jedi are superior in one single aspect to the PT Jedi but they must be - because for the single reason that they have lived 4,000 years earlier. Your point being what ? That I can't tell what the PT Jedi exactly know where you can't tell what the ancient Jedi / Sith did exactly know - this again leads nowhere...

You know, I'm not entirely certain if we were even on the same page... I was speaking of force users in general from an earlier period were much stronger, but if you want to go the whole jedi order angle, fine. Let's look at this:

- Jedi from an earlier time period accomplished much with little training.
- Jedi from an earlier time period showed abilities that PT era jedi never showed (Such as battle meditation, Nomi stripping the Force from Ulic, etc.)
- Jedi from an earlier time period turned the tide of the ground battle when Sadow attacked (Golden Age of the Sith comic series)
- Jedi from an earlier time period spawned Sith demigods like Kun, Nadd, and Ulic.
- Jedi from an earlier time period fought Sith and dark jedi by far more than the PT era jedi.
- Jedi from an earlier time period were more knowledgable in Makashi and in general with the lightsaber styles (Kreia, the KOTOR era jedi masters for example)
- Jedi from an earlier time period served under different mentors at different times, with far more chances to battle training and experience, had a wealth of jedi lore to pour over, and were more likely than not possessing of great Force sensitivity which was removed from the galaxy after the Great Sith War, the Jedi Civil War, and the Battle of Ruusan, in which many jedi died and their bloodlines ended.

Oh yes. Now people get weaker all over a sudden, because there are no "Sith" around. There where still other conflicts Jedi participated in (Stark Hyperspace War / Battles against Mandalorians) and by the skills they displayed so far (movies, EU) there is exactly [b]nothing that makes them look inferior to the ancient Jedi.[/B]

First, what is there in the Stark Hyperspace War that compares it to anything from an earlier time? I mean, technically there hasn't been a full-scale galactic war since before the refromation of the Republic (Which was 1,000 years before Yavin), so this Stark Hyperspace War wasn't on par with the wars of yesteryear. Second, what specifics do we have of this war? Did the jedi help? Lead from the front? Lead from behind the lines? Even ignite their lightsabers? DId they use amazing Force powers that they didn't use in the movies or the EU sources? What does-this- prove, besides nothing?

Again you are acting totally out of any logic. The Jedi that were slain used a style with many flaws in fighting circumstances and you can see enough ancient Jedi getting slain even worse. Your point being here ? That ancient and PT Jedi can die in stupid ways ? And the ancient Sith ar by far better than their Jedi counterparts ?

You were the one who started poo-pooing the deaths of Arca Jeth. And no, not just the Niman users died stupidly, Nai. Jedi masters on the council of the PT era got creamed by clone troopers. So yeah, where was that great power at? Odun-Orr and a few other jedi cut a swath through the forces of Naga Sadow in that war, despite being heavily outnumbered and the Sith lord using illusionary tactics. Odun-Orr, mind you, who more often than not had his nose in a book. And I'd like to point out that the troops of Sadow employed lots of melee weapons, too, and were more likely than not trained for minor sith civil wars and the like.

Tell me how Ulic (being a Sith) first had a tough fight with Cay (being a Jedi Knight) and than got his force connection removed by Nomi Sunrider (another Jedi) if he's "better by far". How did they capture Ulic on Coruscant if he's "better by far" ?

It even says on Starwars.com in his profile that Nadd said Ulic would be "one of the greatest". If he has a rough fight with someone of his bloodline, I'm not going to say "omfg he sucks". And to be completely fair, there are no specifics put forth on how Nomi did it. And they captured Revan too. Does he suck, Nai?

Oh great. Now I'm a liar. Read the interview with GL in "Vanity fair" (February 2005) and you might find the line there if not it's either from theforce.net / starwars.com or the Star Wars Insider. I don't write down my sources for quotes somewhere since I'm not used to throwing faked quotes into somewhere.

No, I didn't say you were a liar, Nai. I said you need to show me the exact quote. For all I know (or anyone else knows) you could be inaccurate, wrong, or lying. Either scenario is entirely possible. If you want to take it personally when I ask for proof (and when I have given YOu proof for my claims in our arguments) you need to learn the etiquette of debate.

Now the idea of Anakin simply being the guy with the greatest potential eliminates the chance of NJO Luke (who is Anakin's son having less potential than Anakin) or Ragnos despite the fact that Anakin never developed into full potential ? Great logic, Janus.

Nice redirection, Nai. Took it completely out of context. The point is... what was -your- point for bringing it up in relation to your argument?

a)
From Sion's point of view all Jedi [b]except the Exile are killed. That's why he was hunting the Exile.[/B]

It's not a straight absolute, but sure, whatever.

b)
The lightside ending of KotoR is canon so Revan and Bastilla are Jedi in the end. And you're simply ignoring facts. You can [b]see Bastilla and Carth talking on Telos in KotoR 2 and it's a fact that Revan went alone to face the Sith Empire.[/b]

Ah, actually... I haven't seen a single official point that Revan and Bastila were canonically jedi. Except of course, from the dubious Wikipedia. And that doesn't hold water for shit, you know that. And the thing you're refering to is... duh, the light side ending. On the dark side on she never appears except in T3's recording and in the Sith holocron on Korriban. However, I should point out that the official KOTOR II website still calls Revan "Darth Revan" after the battle of the Star Forge.

There is no indication for Coruscant being attacked in that entire time. You have no Sith around until 2,000 BBY and those never attacked Coruscant (up to 1,000 BBY) and after them there was a time period up peace (to the PT era).

Only proven events that could have had an effect on the archieves would have been:

a) Ulic's attack on Coruscant - pre KotoR
b) Empire taking Coruscant over - past PT
c) Rebel Alliance / New Republic retaking Coruscant - past PT
d) Yuuzhan Vong attack on Coruscant - past PT

So it's quite easy to think about Coruscant never being attacked between KotoR II and PT times when we have never seen the planet being attacked from the beginning of the Republic to the point Ulic attacked it (21,000 years) and in the time period between KotoR II and the PT. It the most fortified planet in the entire Galaxy and since Ulic with the aid of the Mandalorians failed to sucessfully attack the planet what the hell makes you think there could have been an attack past KotoR II times ? Who should have done it ?

You tell me. The point here was, you're claiming there's no way it got attacked, period. You're dealing in absolutes to save your stance, and to be honest, Nai... KOTOR III could come out next week with the Battle of Coruscant where the real Sith dstroy the jedi temple and you'd be caught out in the open with a bad way. If you're going to hold this, then you should word it more carefully. IN particular, "well, there isn't an instance of it being attacked, so presumably it remained intact and unmolested". Instead, you're telling me there's NO WAY it was molested or attacked.

Even if the Onderon Royal family are descendants of Nadd's bloodline that exactly proofs what considering the fact that we don't know who he had children with ? You're mixing different bloodlines for 300 years and than come up with the conclusion that one of them got weaker - sure it got because mixing it with others. How much ? You have no idea. In fact Amanoa and Ommin still seem to be quite powerful considering the facts that Amanoa fooled Ulic and Ommin kept Arca Jeth as a prisoner with his force powers alone.

Well, Padme was non force sensitive but Anakin was very potentially powerful. They bred NJO Luke. This is one generation. Ulic and the others arrive on ONderon something like 500 years after Nadd. By this time, there are still very powerful Force users as you have noted. And Nadd's spirit... (His spirit) was able to kill King Ommin without any apparent effort. This is a considerable gap.

In fact you're now saying that the universe started with uber-powerful-force users everywhere and since their bloodlines got weaker the ancient Jedi must be more powerful than the PT Jedi ?
So please tell me how somebody like Ragnos can exist with that theory. The most powerful being in the Sith Empire just popped up out of nowhere after 20,000 years of "force potential degeneration" ? Hell...Ajunta Pall must be the uber asskicker if his bloodline and those of his fellow Dark Jedi spawned something like Ragnos after their bloodlines had 20,000 years to get weaker.

Interesting thought, but... The jedi were already stretched thin. They went through a series of purges. Their bloodlines ended with the death of certain Force sensitive families or dynasties. That's -obvious-. The Sith were a closed Force sensitive community who's only opponents were themselves. They weren't wiped out almost to a man several times. Considering that the rogue dark jedi who later came to be known as the Sith bred with the Sith race (Who was supposively very very powerful in the Force, if primitive) only strengthened their bloodlines as opposed to the jedi. Nadd had descendants, and I doubt he fell in love and married, as you so eloquently put it. Sith lords in the past probably spread their seed as often as they could. And Ragnos is a half-blood... his Force power was reputedly tremendous, and he commanded great respect. So the situations are different.

The "hundreds" (quote from the JA trilogy) where most likely everything they could have send. Why would they not send anyone possible there ?

Depends, really. But unlike you, I'm not about to assume that's the only possible reason why they only sent "hundreds". Considering that the older jedi order was less centralized than the new one (Considering they had Watchman, jedi masters of council level who watcehd planets and even whole star systems) fielding more might have been impractical.

You don't get my idea.

a)
The fighters, ship crews, armed clones and anything else were ready. You can see that in AotC when Obi-Wan is on Kamino. He watches the clones entering one of those capital ships. What do you think they're doing there "And now: All people enter the Ship. Fine. And now all people get out of it again. And back into it. And out....I love clones..." ?

So this proves what for your argument? Are you just fighting me on every little thing now?

b)
Tatooine and Geonosis being on different sides of the Galaxy ? In fact they are very close to each other same counts for Kamino. If you don't thrust me (because I'm a notorious liar nowadays) have a look at this map:
http://www.starwars.idv.tw/starwarsgalaxy.jpg

Nice map. But Padme said it was halfway across the galaxy, and this is besides the point.

c)
Coming back to my basical idea. How would the PT Jedi be able to mobilize 200 people instantly (as they did) when the PT Jedi Order is smaller than the ancient Jedi Order (who did never mobilze more than hundrets of people even against major threats like Kun when they had the time to plan their attack). See...you are simply assuming the ancient Jedi Order was bigger without having any proof for it and while pretty much everything contradicts that oppinion.

Instantly, eh? Well, when the PT jedi order is more or less centralized. (And they were... Coruscant was the mainstay of their operations) and they supposively numbered anywhere between 2 and 10 thousand jedi (This figure, mind you, is tenative for the sake of argument) I'm surprised they could ONLY field two hundred. And considering the ones they fielded died, well... they must be better, right?

The clone army [b]was ready and when you have a look at the distance between Kamino and Geonosis compared to the distance between Geonosis and Coruscant they could have easily commanded the Clone Army to Geonosis and launch an attack fast. Keep in mind that the Millenium Falcon needed only 7 hours to cross the distance between Tatooine and Alderaan this could have been done quite fast.[/B]

That doesn't always follow. If you look at the distance guide on the DVD special features for the OT... it can take seven hours to get to Alderaan from Tatooine, but twenty three days to get to Dagobah or some other place on the other side of the galaxy because of things like star clusters, novas, etc. It's not always a straight shot, as Han implied in ANH when he talked about properly charting their course.

What the hell ?
They have the machines needed for midichlorian count testing installed in a goddamn [b]starship (TPM) - must be totally uncommon technology if they put it into a starship like a radio being put in cars in our times. Must be something nobody in space had ever came across except the people on Naboo who can build stuff like that into their goddamn starships where it would be most likely not ever be needed. Yes...that sounds completely logical to me. Lmao.[/B]

Nai... how does this prove the feasibility of testing EVERY DAMN PERSON IN A GALAXY OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE? Talk about "lmao"... that idea is ludicrous despite your best efforts.

And then we have Qui-Gon:
"Had he been born in the Republic, we would have identified him early, and he would have become Jedi, no doubt..."

Oh yes...that should have been: "Had he been born in the Republic we maybe would have identified him at some time in his life because we have to search all the millions of planets with our bare hands to find some force sensitive people with one Jedi being responsible for 1000 star systems (since their are so few of us). And if some force sensitive with Anakin's potential get's lucky we MAY find him to train him to become a Jedi but I'm not entirely sure."

Does that interpretation fit your idea how "finding force sensitive beings" works ?

You always do exaggerate my words to make them seem silly. My point is, there is NO evidence of their being galaxy wide midi-chlorian testing systems nor is there any evidence for people using them or even talking about them. So how the hell does this compute into "omfg pt jedi era has the cream o' the crop jedi from everywhere, all time lmao"? Seriously. Get a grip. You're claims are outlandish, not mine.

No...despite of the fact what kinds of force user we can see in the PT. For example their are 3 Zabrak force users shown in the PT era (Agen Kolar, Eeth Koth and Darth Maul), 4 if you count Kadrian Sey. Well...how many people live on Iridonia ?

Nice one. But Zabraks live OFF of Iridonia as well. Most planets are cosmopolitan enough to have multiple races. Coruscant and Nar Shaddaa are excellent examples. And because of the commonplace space travel, races can get anywhere they can find work or a ride.

We have two people from Yoda's homeworld on the TPM council. We have two people from Shili (Shaak Ti and one of the Younglings that can be seen in AotC). We have two people from Mirial (Luminara Unduli and Bariss Offee) and we have Stass Allie and Adi Gallia who are cousins.

So we have enough examples for multiple force users coming from a single planet in the same time period.

... Ooookay. So what? This proves what? That there are mass produced machines everywhere like little midi-chlorian ATMs and people walk up and test their kids blood on some sanitary needle and then the results go right to the jedi who send someone running to grab the kid? And this in turn proves that PT jedi are what? Cream of the crop? Nai, are you implying that the PT jedi are good based on this?

And I'm still waiting that you give me the name of one single ancient Jedi that is more powerful than Yoda or Mace...must be an easy thing to do if all ancient Jedi are uber-powerful force users compared to the PT ones.

Ah... Ulic. Technically, he died as a jedi master (becoming a force ghost and one with the force) and he could tool Mace or Yoda. so yeah. There ya go. Have fun with that.

do you guys have no other way of proving your point without making a whole speech because the people on this sith with a life cannot actually be bothered.

Originally posted by darthsupremus
do you guys have no other way of proving your point without making a whole speech because the people on this sith with a life cannot actually be bothered.

...

You have exactly fourteen posts and just registered this month. You have the audacity to come in here and make some worthless comment regarding this debate? Seriously... this IS a forum. People communicate here. If that is too big for you to comprehend, ignore the thread. No one asked nor needed your input.

how do you know this was my only account. It is by the way but that is not the point

Because if it wasn't, you'd be a sock and banned. Forum rules. And your comment is still pointless.

And a correction on my earlier post. There are specifics on Nomi taking Ulic's powers from him. I don't know why I said there weren't... I just reread the comic.

man you must be cool

And more... Apparently they did rally ALL the jedi after Kun. I stand corrected. There.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Well, for one thing, NJO is a certified forcegod. That's apparent. We can see it. But you, you're claiming the PT jedi are something more than what we see. Specifically, that they have amazing saber skills better than anyone else; more knowledge of the Force (despite earlier Force users like Kreia using far more in their bag of tricks); the ability to work perfectly (better even than older eras of jedi) to fight wars and enemies and such despite never having a use for it. I mean, come on, Nai... you're talking about an era where there is one guy who practices the true saber-to-saber style. Just one. This is not an era of war-oriented, battleready and Sith slaying jedi. Period. The difference between NJO Luke (Which is stupid, but I've ranted about this before) and your idea of the PT jedi being great is.... there's actual instances of NJO Luke doing such things. All instances of the PT jedi's powers and abilities are before us, too. Guess what? Nothing impressive.

a)
Fact remains that Luke developed all of his force powers with knowledge that the PT Jedi had access to. So unless it's against the code why would the PT Jedi not learn some stuff ?

b)
To quote yourself: Absense of proof isn't proof of absense. If you consider the CW cartoons we have seen the PT Jedi doing some powerful stuff (Mace wasting those droids on Dantooine) now matter how stupid it is. More stupid than the NJO series ? Hardly.

Nai, this is obvious. Sadow, Kun and Nadd all displayed Force mastery and feats that couldn't be replicated by anyone in the PT. Period. No one in the PT could destroy a star system nor even hinted that they knew how. No one in the PT era ever had a hundred jedi and a Republic fleet sent after them before. No on else usurped the role Dark Lord of the Sith despite having severe, cutthroat competition. It's only natural that these Sith contained amazing power well above the PT era force users. And since to imply otherwise begs for proof, I'll let you work on that.

Where did they show feats that couldn't be replicated by anyone in the PT ? This again is assumption since noone in the PT had a starship amplifying his force powers to destroy a star. We have seen people using force grip, force lightning and telekenesis (so everything shown by Kun, Nadd, Sadow) in the PT and again it would be an assumption to say that the ancient ones did use it in a "stronger" way.

- Jedi from an earlier time period accomplished much with little training.

Due to the simple fact of inconsistencies between PT and EU released before the PT. Actually we have never seen somebody being considered Jedi Knight at the age of 13 or Master at the age of 28.

- Jedi from an earlier time period showed abilities that PT era jedi never showed (Such as battle meditation, Nomi stripping the Force from Ulic, etc.)

Simply wrong. Yarael Poof and Oppo Rancisis where both able to use Battle Meditation. Sidious did it, Joruus C'baoth also did it. All of them being PT force users.

- Jedi from an earlier time period turned the tide of the ground battle when Sadow attacked (Golden Age of the Sith comic series)

Yes. After Sadow was blown out of orbit by his own commander. Nice action.

- Jedi from an earlier time period spawned Sith demigods like Kun, Nadd, and Ulic.

Yap. They did. That tells us what since the only Jedi that turned into Sith in PT times where a crippled Anakin becoming Darth Vader and an old man - Dooku - becoming Darth Tyranus ?

- Jedi from an earlier time period fought Sith and dark jedi by far more than the PT era jedi.

What time period are you talking about ? In really ancient times there were no Sith to fight for the Jedi. Sadow was the first one and got killed because of betrayal.

Kun's period...major people to fight:
Exar, Ulic, Aleema and Satal Keto, King Ommin, Queen Amanoa, Warb Null, Crado

KotoR times:
Revan used special forces to capture the Jedi and convert them where Malak used Sith Assasins to simply kill them. That was continued after the war. In fact the only people we know that did fight Dark Jedi / Sith and survived are the people on board the Ebon Hawk (KotoR 1 + 2) and Kavar (since he went to fight Malak). Major people to fight: Revan, Malak, Sion, Kreia (?)

PT times:
Maul, Dooku, Sidious, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, Kadrian Sey, Kar Vastor, Xanatos, Komari Vosa, Bruck Chun, Artel Darc, The Dark Acolytes (Asajj Ventress, Trenox, Saato, Sev'rance Tann). Did I miss somebody ?

- Jedi from an earlier time period were more knowledgable in Makashi and in general with the lightsaber styles (Kreia, the KOTOR era jedi masters for example)

a) Makashi didn't help Dooku to overcome Yoda as we've all seen.
b) They were more knowledgeable in general with lightsaber styles ? Hardly.
- they had one style less (since Vaapad was invented in PT times)
- Kreia (from game experience) was able to use 3 styles (form I, II, III at max)
- as far as we seen every one of that Jedi Masters did practice one style where some PT users have mastered more than one.

- Jedi from an earlier time period served under different mentors at different times, with far more chances to battle training and experience, had a wealth of jedi lore to pour over, and were more likely than not possessing of great Force sensitivity which was removed from the galaxy after the Great Sith War, the Jedi Civil War, and the Battle of Ruusan, in which many jedi died and their bloodlines ended.

People at PT times had general instructors from very young age up to the point they became Padawans (e.g. Yoda, Cin Drallig) then continued as Padawans under one Master so they did have more "masters" in fact than people like Nomi Sunrider or Ulic Quel-Droma.

Again the bloodline theory. It's great how a single person can assume bloodlikes of thousands of Jedi "ended" somehow where proof shows that some bloodlines survived all that and (just to remind you) not all force users were involved in the Battle of Ruusan.

You were the one who started poo-pooing the deaths of Arca Jeth. And no, not just the Niman users died stupidly, Nai. Jedi masters on the council of the PT era got creamed by clone troopers.

Yap. Jedi masters on the Council replacing other people where creamed by clone troopers who are still better than battle droids and all this happen while completely thrusting those clone troopers and being hopelessly outnumbered.

And they captured Revan too. Does he suck, Nai?

Revan was shot down and on the edge of death before they were able to capture him while Ulic was simply captured. When Nomi did cut Ulic's connection to the force up Ulic was just hesitating because he killed his own brother just moments before. Well...he doesn't seem to be that evil at all...

No, I didn't say you were a liar, Nai. I said you need to show me the exact quote. For all I know (or anyone else knows) you could be inaccurate, wrong, or lying. Either scenario is entirely possible. If you want to take it personally when I ask for proof (and when I have given YOu proof for my claims in our arguments) you need to learn the etiquette of debate.

How would I not take it personal if you tell me that you arguing my person ?

Nice redirection, Nai. Took it completely out of context. The point is... what was -your- point for bringing it up in relation to your argument?

The simple fact you throw in the idea that the must have greater force potential because they are shown to develop greater skills compared to the PT Jedi. Yet again they can’t have a greater potential than Anakin (period) and thereby it’s simply impossible that they would develop force related skill faster than him.
And please don’t get me wrong: I do believe that people like Mace, Yoda, Luke or (ancient times) Kun, Ulic, Nomi came quite close to Anakin’s force potential but they didn’t surpass him. So if they are equal to (let’s say) Luke they would develop in the times they trained from ANH Luke into 2 years past ROTJ Luke. Not that great. But they won’t sure as hell develop past characters like Mace Windu, Yoda or Dooku and that was my entire point here.

Ah, actually... I haven't seen a single official point that Revan and Bastila were canonically jedi. Except of course, from the dubious Wikipedia. And that doesn't hold water for shit, you know that. And the thing you're refering to is... duh, the light side ending. On the dark side on she never appears except in T3's recording and in the Sith holocron on Korriban. However, I should point out that the official KOTOR II website still calls Revan "Darth Revan" after the battle of the Star Forge.

The “official point” is KotoR II itself.
It’s said that Master Vandar was killed on Katarr. Dark Side ending of KotoR he would have been killed during the battle around the SF.

You tell me. The point here was, you're claiming there's no way it got attacked, period. You're dealing in absolutes to save your stance, and to be honest, Nai... KOTOR III could come out next week with the Battle of Coruscant where the real Sith dstroy the jedi temple and you'd be caught out in the open with a bad way. If you're going to hold this, then you should word it more carefully. IN particular, "well, there isn't an instance of it being attacked, so presumably it remained intact and unmolested". Instead, you're telling me there's NO WAY it was molested or attacked.

I’m dealing in absolutes when all evidence points out that I’m right. If I throw you out of a space shuttle in outer space naked all evidence says you will die. Now have a look at following points:

a)
There is at least one Sith holocron stored in the temple 2,000 years BBY because a Sith holocron is stolen before the new Sith order is started. The last Sith around were those in KotoR times and that leaves the conclusion that the Holocron must have survived in the temple from KotoR times on.

b)
Luke finds the Holocron of Vodo who Palpatine before him found in the Jedi temple that means that they had knowledge from Kun’s era stored in the temple in PT times. Another proof for that is that Maul used plans from a Sith holocron stolen from the Jedi temple to construct his lightsaber.

c)
They had descriptions of ancient force techniques in the temple (e.g. Moricho, Battle Meditation) that survived their from “ancient” times on again leaving to the conclusion that the archives remained intact from KotoR II time on if not from Kun’s times on or even from the beginning of the Jedi Order.

d)
The temple is still intact in PT times.

And just to explain my dealing in absolutes here: I’m studying history and that’s how I look on the Star Wars history. So the idea of Coruscant being attacked without that attack being mentioned anywhere seems as abstract to me as saying Caesar conquered the American continent.

Interesting thought, but... The jedi were already stretched thin. They went through a series of purges. Their bloodlines ended with the death of certain Force sensitive families or dynasties. That's -obvious-. The Sith were a closed Force sensitive community who's only opponents were themselves. They weren't wiped out almost to a man several times. Considering that the rogue dark jedi who later came to be known as the Sith bred with the Sith race (Who was supposively very very powerful in the Force, if primitive) only strengthened their bloodlines as opposed to the jedi. Nadd had descendants, and I doubt he fell in love and married, as you so eloquently put it. Sith lords in the past probably spread their seed as often as they could. And Ragnos is a half-blood... his Force power was reputedly tremendous, and he commanded great respect. So the situations are different.

It’s obvious that you either didn’t read my previous post or simply don’t want to accept the facts given.

a) We see families (and bloodlines) surviving all that purges (the Sunrider family, the Keto family).
b) We see force users surviving all that purges (Bastilla, the Jedi Masters in KotoR II, serveral people who survived Order 66)

The killer argument is that the Dark Jedi who interbred with the Sith developed their bloodlines to become stronger while all other bloodlines got weaker. Why the hell did planets like Katarr didn’t develop uber powerful force users (another example for an entire species being strong with the force) or – let’s say it another way – why can’t you accept that Mace Windu is damn powerful considering the fact that he is a member of a species that developed out of a ship filled with Jedi Knights crashed on the planet serveral thousand years before (told in Shatterpoint) with one member of that species developing Jedi Knight / Master like skills without a single minute of Jedi training (being able to deflect blasters for example) ?

Depends, really. But unlike you, I'm not about to assume that's the only possible reason why they only sent "hundreds". Considering that the older jedi order was less centralized than the new one (Considering they had Watchman, jedi masters of council level who watcehd planets and even whole star systems) fielding more might have been impractical.

How do you know the PT Jedi order didn’t have watchmen ? Absence of proof isn’t proof of absence. It’s at least very unlikely that all individuals been trained by the Jedi were all stationed on Coruscant since we actually only see a few people running around in the temple.

So this proves what for your argument? Are you just fighting me on every little thing now?

I wanted to proof that the PT Jedi attacked Geonosis MUCH faster than the ancient Jedi attacked Kun on Yavin 4.

Nice map. But Padme said it was halfway across the galaxy, and this is besides the point.

Halfway across the galaxy from Coruscant:
“They'll never get there in time to save him. They have to come halfway across the galaxy. Look, Geonosis is
less than a parsec away.”

Instantly, eh? Well, when the PT jedi order is more or less centralized. (And they were... Coruscant was the mainstay of their operations) and they supposively numbered anywhere between 2 and 10 thousand jedi (This figure, mind you, is tenative for the sake of argument) I'm surprised they could ONLY field two hundred. And considering the ones they fielded died, well... they must be better, right?

I’m talking about the size of the order and not about the skill level of the Jedi. Yes they must have gathered their forces instantly. Being more centralized is a non-issue here since the ancient Jedi against Kun had much more time to prepare for battle...

If you want to talk about “skill” the Jedi that Nadd (a single person) killed with a blaster must be considered to be weaker than PT Younglings since can PT Younglings can deflect blaster fire from a single source and the ancient Jedi obviously can’t.

That doesn't always follow. If you look at the distance guide on the DVD special features for the OT... it can take seven hours to get to Alderaan from Tatooine, but twenty three days to get to Dagobah or some other place on the other side of the galaxy because of things like star clusters, novas, etc. It's not always a straight shot, as Han implied in ANH when he talked about properly charting their course.

As you can see on the map the “Correlian run” (yellow route) perfectly leads from Coruscant to Geonosis / Tatooine. I doubt the way from Coruscant to Geonosis would take much longer than flying from Tatooine to Alderaan considering how close Alderaan / Coruscant and Geonosis / Tatooine are to each other.

Nai... how does this prove the feasibility of testing EVERY DAMN PERSON IN A GALAXY OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE? Talk about "lmao"... that idea is ludicrous despite your best efforts.

Why is it so hard to understand ? As I said...in industrial countries nowadays every newborn child is tested for some deceases via bloodtest. Having the technology to do midi-chlorian testing with a simple bloodtest why would the Jedi NOT install it in every damn hospital (or make it part of every medical-droid) in the Galaxy and simply have every newborn child tested for midi-chlorians. That’s actually MUCH more logical than assuming that they travel each planet in the Galaxy and recruit children they coincidentally ran across.

You always do exaggerate my words to make them seem silly. My point is, there is NO evidence of their being galaxy wide midi-chlorian testing systems nor is there any evidence for people using them or even talking about them. So how the hell does this compute into "omfg pt jedi era has the cream o' the crop jedi from everywhere, all time lmao"? Seriously. Get a grip. You're claims are outlandish, not mine.

Qui-Gon is perfectly sure that they would have found Anakin being a newborn child if he just had been born in the Republic. So...why is he so sure ? Because their must be a method they can find every child strong enough with the force to become a Jedi Knight and since all PT Jedi were trained from infancy on (except Anakin and I’m talking about 50 individuals I can name) they seem to be quite successful in recruiting people.

Nice one. But Zabraks live OFF of Iridonia as well. Most planets are cosmopolitan enough to have multiple races. Coruscant and Nar Shaddaa are excellent examples. And because of the commonplace space travel, races can get anywhere they can find work or a ride.

Oh. If we wouldn’t know that Agen Kolar and at least Darth Maul both were coming from Iridonia you would have got me there...

Ah... Ulic. Technically, he died as a jedi master (becoming a force ghost and one with the force) and he could tool Mace or Yoda. so yeah. There ya go. Have fun with that.

Oh…cool. Now Ulic Quel-Droma the Jedi Knight that went Dark Side suddenly developed into a Jedi Master despite the fact that he wasn’t able to use the force any more since Nomi cut his connection to the force ?

Now Jedi Knight Ulic Quel-Droma with maximum five years of training and some minor battle experience will be powerful enough to defeat Mace (being twices as old, having 10 times the Jedi training and more battle experience) or Yoda (being 30 times as old having 200 times the Jedi training and more battle experience). I’m totally sure this will work...NOT.

nai you just proved my point, god when you reply just take it slow and easy

yo supremus let me give you some advice on your first month day week whatever at this website the best thing to do is not make everybody hate you especially janus

How do you know the PT Jedi order didn’t have watchmen ? Absence of proof isn’t proof of absence. It’s at least very unlikely that all individuals been trained by the Jedi were all stationed on Coruscant since we actually only see a few people running around in the temple.
[/QUOTE]

So we only see a few people from Coruscant? That doesn't make a lot of sense, since that is where all the knowledge is, isn't it.

The point is that NJO Luke only used parts of those archieves (in fact very small parts) and developed into a force god. Now people using the same stuff (and even more of it) have actually no knowledge. That fits how ?[/QUOTE]

Crap. Here I am, about to defend NJO Luke and the NJO. God, what has I come to...

Anyway. Nai, Luke didn't have only part of those archives. He got an entire academy of archives from the Dathomir Force WItches about 6 B.B.Y., so he has a lot. He also recovered some of what was on Ossus and some other Jedi library. Add that to what he got from the holocrons Palpatine kept for personal use, and you should expect him to be powerful. He had tons of knowledge.

Tell me how Ulic (being a Sith) first had a tough fight with Cay (being a Jedi Knight) and than got his force connection removed by Nomi Sunrider (another Jedi) if he's "better by far". How did they capture Ulic on Coruscant if he's "better by far" ?[/QUOTE]

No explanation for the Cay fight here, but with Nomi, he had just killed his own brother and was almost in shock because of it. I doubt he could have defended himself from anything for after that.

6 B.B.Y.? Luke was fourteen. . . I believe you mean 6 A.B.Y.

Sorry. I'm so used to talking about Ancient Sith recently. 6 A.B.Y.