Yoda vs Ulic

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So we only see a few people from Coruscant? That doesn't make a lot of sense, since that is where all the knowledge is, isn't it.

Oh...are all people sitting in a library where you live since that is the place where all the knowledge is ? At least think before posting, Glentract.

Crap. Here I am, about to defend NJO Luke and the NJO. God, what has I come to...

Anyway. Nai, Luke didn't have only part of those archives. He got an entire academy of archives from the Dathomir Force WItches about 6 B.B.Y., so he has a lot. He also recovered some of what was on Ossus and some other Jedi library. Add that to what he got from the holocrons Palpatine kept for personal use, and you should expect him to be powerful. He had tons of knowledge.

And again Glentract...don't even try to argue me when you basically no nothing.

a)
Things that Luke found on Dathomir were the same things that were on board of the Cu'unthor which contained copies from the things stored in the archieves on Coruscant. That was the "Jedi library" he found.

b)
Ossus was completely destroyed and he basically found nothing there. Only thing I have seen coming from Ossus was a approxematly 10,000 year old lightsaber given to Leia by Vima Da-Boda.

c)
The holocrons Palpatine had were either taken away from the Jedi Temple after he had taken over the Republic or they were passed on through the Sith order from times of Ruusan reformation on (again the holocrons were stolen from the Jedi archieves in 2,000 BBY) and as far as we know Sidious only had one Holocron (being the one of Master Vodo).

No explanation for the Cay fight here, but with Nomi, he had just killed his own brother and was almost in shock because of it. I doubt he could have defended himself from anything for after that.

Nice you give me information I have already postet myself. Still no explanation how they would be able to capture him on Coruscant.

Oh...are all people sitting in a library where you live since that is the place where all the knowledge is ? At least think before posting, Glentract.[/QUOTE]

I'll admit, I missread your post. I thought you were saying many Jedi weren't trained on Coruscant.

And again Glentract...don't even try to argue me when you basically no nothing.[/QUOTE]

I was showing why Luke is powerful, not showing that the Jedi Council had less power than him do to knowledge alone.

a)
Things that Luke found on Dathomir were the same things that were on board of the Cu'unthor which contained [b]copies from the things stored in the archieves on Coruscant. That was the "Jedi library" he found.[/B][/QUOTE]

Where has it ever been shown that these things were copies? I want to see a quote. And I want that quote to have a source.

b)
Ossus was completely destroyed and he basically found nothing there. Only thing I have seen coming from Ossus was a approxematly 10,000 year old lightsaber given to Leia by Vima Da-Boda.[/QUOTE]

So, unlike on Dantooine, the Jedi didn't save ANY of the knowledge from Ossus? I never said he got all of it.

c)
The holocrons Palpatine had were either taken away from the Jedi Temple after he had taken over the Republic or they were passed on through the Sith order from times of Ruusan reformation on (again the holocrons were stolen from the Jedi archieves in 2,000 BBY) and as far as we know Sidious only had one Holocron (being the one of Master Vodo).[/QUOTE]

So there is no way that Palpatine got any of those holocrons from other sources? Add to that, where did Vodo's holocron come from? How do you know the PT Jedi had it. Leia recovered Bodo's holocron from Palpatine's body, not Vodo's. I want to see where this one came from, or at least a logical argument for the PT Jedi having had access to it.

Nice you give me information I have already postet myself. Still no explanation how they would be able to capture him on Coruscant. [/QUOTE]

Yes, why would they be able to capture Ulic? Maybe because there were thousands of Jedi there. It's not like one guy walked up to him and in one on one combat disarmed him and dragged him back to the Jedi Temple.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Where has it ever been shown that these things were copies? I want to see a quote. And I want that quote to have a source.

The Chu'unthor was built 400 years before TPM, designed as a mobile Jedi school and it's archives are copies of the Jedi Archives on Coruscant (where else do you think this stuff was coming from ?). That can all be read in "The Courtship of Princess Leia" which I don't have around here at the moment (being quite the stupid book it is) and if I would only have the German version so I am unable to provide a quote and a source.

So, unlike on Dantooine, the Jedi didn't save ANY of the knowledge from Ossus? I never said he got all of it.

Ossus surface was hit by a supernova. What exactly do you think can be found there ? The Jedi tried to save some of the documents that were stored there (and guess where they brought the things they wer able to save). Luke Skywalker visted the planet and found the "Ysanna" there.

So there is no way that Palpatine got any of those holocrons from other sources? Add to that, where did Vodo's holocron come from? How do you know the PT Jedi had it. Leia recovered Bodo's holocron from Palpatine's body, not Vodo's. I want to see where this one came from, or at least a logical argument for the PT Jedi having had access to it.

a)
Well...there is a possiblity that Sidious had holocrons coming from other sources but as far as we know he had only one - that being the one Leia found at his body.

b)
That Holocron belonged to Bodo Baas but the information stored in it were much older and it contained information from Vodo Siosk-Baas himself (that can be seen in the JA trilogy when Luke uses the holocron). Now Bodo lived for more than 600 years and was killed during the Jedi Purge in the end of the Clone Wars. He simply organized the informations stored in the holocron.

Now seeing that Bodo was part of the PT Jedi Order how would the knowledge of that holocron would have not be accessable by the PT Jedi Order members and where should Palpatine have found that holocron if not in the Jedi Temple (keeping the fact in mind that it belonged to a PT time Jedi) ?

Yes, why would they be able to capture Ulic? Maybe because there were thousands of Jedi there. It's not like one guy walked up to him and in one on one combat disarmed him and dragged him back to the Jedi Temple.

No the simple reason is that Cay Quel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider did capture him. Him...the Sith who should be far better than the two Jedi.

The Chu'unthor was built 400 years before TPM, designed as a mobile Jedi school and it's archives are copies of the Jedi Archives on Coruscant (where else do you think this stuff was coming from ?). That can all be read in "The Courtship of Princess Leia" which I don't have around here at the moment (being quite the stupid book it is) and if I would only have the German version so I am unable to provide a quote and a source.[/QUOTE]

Alright, good enough for me. At least in part. Does it actually say that the info in copies. No quote needed. I forget that English isn't a lot of people here's promary language.

Ossus surface was hit by a supernova. What exactly do you think can be found there ? The Jedi tried to save some of the documents that were stored there (and guess where they brought the things they wer able to save). Luke Skywalker visted the planet and found the "Ysanna" there. [/QUOTE]

There was time to evacuate. They moved some(a small portion out of the whole, but still a large amount) to other places. This didn't necessarily go to Coruscant.

a)
Well...there is a possiblity that Sidious had holocrons coming from other sources but as far as we know he had only one - that being the one Leia found at his body.[/QUOTE]

Thus proving that Luke got a holocron from a different source. There were two different holocrons. One was Bodo's holocron. That was the one Palpatine had. Luke recieved a different one from somewhere else that was made by Vodo. There is no way it is the same holocron.

One, The Essential Guide to Characters says they were different ones. Two, Exar as a spirit destroyed Vodo's holocron before the Emperor came back as a clone. Since Leia got Bodo's holocron off of Palpatines body, they must be different.

b)
That Holocron belonged to Bodo Baas but the information stored in it were much older and it contained information from Vodo Siosk-Baas himself (that can be seen in the JA trilogy when Luke uses the holocron). Now Bodo lived for more than 600 years and was killed during the Jedi Purge in the end of the Clone Wars. He simply organized the informations stored in the holocron. [/QUOTE]

See above. They are two different holocrons.

Now seeing that Bodo was part of the PT Jedi Order how would the knowledge of that holocron would have [b]not be accessable by the PT Jedi Order members and where should Palpatine have found that holocron if not in the Jedi Temple (keeping the fact in mind that it belonged to a PT time Jedi) ?[/B][/QUOTE]

You do realize that Bodo is not a PT Jedi. Yoda probably talked to him, but Bodo died hundreds of years before the PT. Also, please restate this now that you know Vodo and Bodo were different and each had their own holocrons.

No the simple reason is that Cay Quel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider did capture him. Him...the Sith who should be far better than the two Jedi. [/QUOTE]

Two Jedi capturing him, if true, doesn't mean a PT Jedi could have done the same thing. Both have extremly powerful bloodlines. And, does in make any sense for just [b]two[b] Jedi out of the [b]thousands[b] of Jedi on Coruscant to go after him?

This could mean any of these things to me.

Either Cay and Nomi are extremly powerful and the Order knew they were enough to do it one their own or....

There were other Jedi, but we only saw those two, as they were important characters in the comic.

Still, I want to see why only two Jedi went after Ulic out of thousands.

Remember that Ulic had Nadd's Amulet, so he had artifacts of extreme power and that he stalemated with the guy who destroyed Nadd's spirit and many Massassi [b]THEN[b] trained for years before reaching his peak.

a)
Fact remains that Luke developed [b]all of his force powers with knowledge that the PT Jedi had access to. So unless it's against the code why would the PT Jedi not learn some stuff ?[/B]

Why would they not use it when it mattered most? Hoenstly, Nai... they showed nothing to indicate that they were better than they are.

b)
To quote yourself: Absense of proof isn't proof of absense. If you consider the CW cartoons we [b]have seen the PT Jedi doing some powerful stuff (Mace wasting those droids on Dantooine) now matter how stupid it is. More stupid than the NJO series ? Hardly.[/B]

And it's not proof of proof either, Nai. The default stance for any debater listening to another propose in idea (in this case, you saying the PT jedi are better than every one else) is disbelief. False. And it is up to you to prove otherwise. Everyone and his mother thinks the CW cartoon stuff is ridiculous except you now, because it supports your point. So really, does this absence of proof make the PT jedi better? I mean, in that case I could argue that the absence of proof on the earlier force users must mean they are also very good. See where that leads us? Nowhere.

Where did they show feats that couldn't be replicated by anyone in the PT ? This again is assumption since noone in the PT had a starship amplifying his force powers to destroy a star. We have seen people using force grip, force lightning and telekenesis (so everything shown by Kun, Nadd, Sadow) in the PT and again it would be an assumption to say that the ancient ones did use it in a "stronger" way.

I like how that ship suddenly undermines the ancient Force users. They must all be weaker than the PT ones simply because of a ship. How quaint. I like how you're ignoring the obvious- the ancients actually HAD the knowledge to build a ship like that. Obviously they understood the Force VERY well, and this should not take away from their prowess; if anything, it should verify it. And Nomi Sunrider used a technique she learned from Odun-Orr in which she effectively and suddenly shut Ulic off from the Force. No prep, no ship, no nothing. Why didn't Yoda do that to Dooku or Sidious in the PT? COuld it be he.... couldn't, Nai?

Due to the simple fact of inconsistencies between PT and EU released before the PT. Actually we have never seen somebody being considered Jedi Knight at the age of 13 or Master at the age of 28.

Because the practice wasn't to train younglings. You said it yourself. But it's not a complete inconsistency since they went ahead and said that the notion of training jedi from youth didn't come until abour Ruusan time period. So how does this change anything? With less training they became just as good if not even better.

Simply wrong. Yarael Poof and Oppo Rancisis where both able to use Battle Meditation. Sidious did it, Joruus C'baoth also did it. All of them being PT force users.

Alright, I concede on the Battle meditation. I didn't remember either of those two using it. But the ancients still used Force techniques and powers above and beyond those of the PT era. In particular, Nomi's ability to tear Ulic from the force is a considerable and effective talent. Also, when Vodo and the jedi captured Ulic after Aleema betrayed him, they put him into a shield of light that he (despite being a powerful jedi and Sith lord) couldn't break free from. Both of those are fine instances of when the ancient jedi used exceptional force powers. And I'm not even mentioning the ancient Sith, who were above even that.

Yap. They did. That tells us what since the only Jedi that turned into Sith in PT times where a crippled Anakin becoming Darth Vader and an old man - Dooku - becoming Darth Tyranus ?

Oh I get it. So because of their status (old and crippled..) they aren't viable examples of PT jedi turned Sith being much much weaker than their ancient counterparts? Please...

What time period are you talking about ? In really ancient times there were no Sith to fight for the Jedi. Sadow was the first one and got killed because of betrayal.

Kun's period...major people to fight:
Exar, Ulic, Aleema and Satal Keto, King Ommin, Queen Amanoa, Warb Null, Crado

KotoR times:
Revan used special forces to capture the Jedi and convert them where Malak used Sith Assasins to simply kill them. That was continued after the war. In fact the only people we know that did fight Dark Jedi / Sith and survived are the people on board the Ebon Hawk (KotoR 1 + 2) and Kavar (since he went to fight Malak). Major people to fight: Revan, Malak, Sion, Kreia (?)

PT times:
Maul, Dooku, Sidious, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, Kadrian Sey, Kar Vastor, Xanatos, Komari Vosa, Bruck Chun, Artel Darc, The Dark Acolytes (Asajj Ventress, Trenox, Saato, Sev'rance Tann). Did I miss somebody ?

Touche on the listing. You can put forth data, if you can't always back up your argument. But really... did the PT jedi show sufficient saber-to-saber fighting techniques? No. Assajj Ventress killed jedi masters, and defeated the likes of Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto. Sidious murdered the order as a whole, and personally killed four. Dooku was beyond the ability of the majority of the jedi to fight, and Maul effectively killed a jedi master who was renowned for his wisdom and cleverness. This is an era where Niman (The diplomat's form) was commonplace, obviously. Since you like to use sampling yourself, try this: at Geonosis there were slightly over a hundred jedi there. An overwhelming majority practiced Niman. -If- this is reflective of the entire order (and we're never specifically shown otherwise) since they ARE keepers of the peace and not soldiers with no known natural enemies until the Sith reemerge, it's very likely that the majority of the order practices Niman.

a) Makashi didn't help Dooku to overcome Yoda as we've all seen.

And Ataru didn't help Yoda overcome Makashi or Sidious, either. The point is, Makashi is the refinement of saber to saber combat, hailing from an ancient era. Dooku's saber hilt is even supposed to be ancient in design. Just because Dooku can't defeat Yoda using Makashi doesn't mean there weren't practitioners in the past who couldn't. Absence of proof, Nai. It cuts both ways here and there.

b) They were more knowledgeable in general with lightsaber styles ? Hardly.
- they had one style less (since Vaapad was invented in PT times)
- Kreia (from game experience) was able to use 3 styles (form I, II, III at max)
- as far as we seen every one of that Jedi Masters did practice one style where some PT users have [b]mastered more than one. [/B]

Vaapad is a COMPLETION of Juyo; it is not a whole 'nother style. And in any case, you argued that they all use the basics, so what difference should that make in your opinion anyway? Second, gameplay experience is stupid to use in debate. Kreia knows (as in, her dialogue) all of the styles in the order. The three jedi masters know each of the higher forms (Juyo, Ataru, etc.) Just because a Jedi consular in game stats cannot use certain styles does not preclude the person actually not using them. what if the exile never leveled up past a certain point? Could he NOT use Shii-Cho? And secondly, only Mace Windu has shown multiple style mastery, and this is implied in his form.

People at PT times had general instructors from very young age up to the point they became Padawans (e.g. Yoda, Cin Drallig) then continued as Padawans under one Master so they did have more "masters" in fact than people like Nomi Sunrider or Ulic Quel-Droma.

But not on the same level. We know from KOTOR times that Jedi often floated from one mastr to another, even up and past adulthood, learning what they could. It was an open school. in the PT era, children learn under multiple masters until they are apprenticed to one person. Then they Study under that master primarily from that point on. It's the way it is. As for learning as younglings, etc. ... do you honestly remember everything you learned in grade school as a child? Do you think that despite research indicating that youth generally don't develop most logical functions and retention features until past their early preteens, these children learned enough from multiple masters to what? Be good? Please...

Again the bloodline theory. It's great how a single person can assume bloodlikes of thousands of Jedi "ended" somehow where proof shows that some bloodlines survived all that and (just to remind you) not all force users were involved in the Battle of Ruusan.

Voma survived. Who else? And really, are you going to argue that all those jedi didn't die without kin? That they all secretly had hidden away children and family members who survived the purges?

Yap. Jedi masters on the Council replacing other people where creamed by clone troopers who are still better than battle droids and all this happen while completely thrusting those clone troopers [b]and being hopelessly outnumbered.[/B]

Yeah, Ki was hopelessly outnumbered by... about the same number of clone troopers that padawan started owning. And even if they are replacement council members, they should still be good, since that is your premise, is it not?

Revan was shot down and on the edge of death before they were able to capture him while Ulic was simply captured. When Nomi did cut Ulic's connection to the force up Ulic was just hesitating because he killed his own brother just moments before. Well...he doesn't seem to be that evil at all...

Ulic was not simply captured, Nai. He was confronted with the grandmaster of the order and a handful of other jedi who ahd to combined (pool, it says) their powers to overcome him and trap him.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
There was time to evacuate. They moved some(a small portion out of the whole, but still a large amount) to other places. This didn't necessarily go to Coruscant.

If they moved something away from Ossus this would have been transportet to Coruscant. The archive on Ossus was started 5,000 BBY and remained there for 1,000 years. The archives on Coruscant were still the main archives of the order thus existing probably since 25,000 years BBY.

Thus proving that Luke got a holocron from a different source. There were two different holocrons. One was Bodo's holocron. That was the one Palpatine had. Luke recieved a different one from somewhere else that was made by Vodo. There is no way it is the same holocron.

That is simply wrong. Read the JA trilogy if you don't believe me. Bodo was the keeper of Vodo's holocron. He reorganized the information in it (stored in it by Vodo) and made his own personality part of the Holocron basically as an "archivar".
You can see Luke asking Bodo for information about Kun (or the Great Sith War) and than Vodo is talking about his old student (which would be Kun).

One, The Essential Guide to Characters says they were different ones. Two, Exar as a spirit destroyed Vodo's holocron before the Emperor came back as a clone. Since Leia got Bodo's holocron off of Palpatines body, they must be different.

Either you missunderstood the Essential Guide or it's simply wrong there. And have a look at the EU timeline. Palpatine returned 10 ABY and Luke did start his Jedi Academy in 11 ABY so after the Emperor was defeated in the Dark Empire comics.

See above. They are two different holocrons.

No. They aren't. Period. Read the beginning of chapter 23 of "Dark Apprentice". The holocron tells the students how Yoda became a Jedi Knight (which Vodo Siosk-Baas can't tell of course) and the very same holocron gave information about Nomi Sunrider before. Now if you read the end of chapter 29 of "Dark Apprentice" (were the Holocron gets destroyed by Kun) you have Vodo Siosk-Baas talking to Luke about Exar Kun right before that.
All the very same holocron that's the reason why it's called "the Jedi Holocron" and not "a Jedi Holocron".

You do realize that Bodo is not a PT Jedi. Yoda probably talked to him, but Bodo died hundreds of years before the PT. Also, please restate this now that you know Vodo and Bodo were different and each had their own holocrons.

You do realize that Bodo was born around 600 years before BBY and died being executed during the Jedi Purge being acused of "crimes against the Empire". So he in fact was a PT Jedi. And you better realize that Vodo Siosk-Baas holocron was the same holocron that Bodo Baas had, that was taken by the Emperor after he was executed and it's the same holocron Leia found in Dark Empire after the Emperor was killed and the very same holocron that Luke used during the Jedi Academy trilogy being destroyed by Exar Kun.

Two Jedi capturing him, if true, doesn't mean a PT Jedi could have done the same thing. Both have extremly powerful bloodlines. And, does in make any sense for just two Jedi out of the thousands of Jedi on Coruscant to go after him?

Where have I landed here ? In the institute for Jedi bloodlines ?

Nomi had a powerful bloodline ? Great. In fact we don't know anything about Nomi's ancestors since she just married Andur Sunrider, taking his name and he was the one who's father was a Jedi.

But yes Cay must be the uber powerful force users because being a Quel-Droma. As far as we know, there were only 4 Jedi in the Quel-Droma family: Ulic, Cay, their mother and their cousin with the ladder one and his fellow Jedi were slain by two Tarantateks that Revan later killed on his own.

Shut that goddamn bloodline theory down or else I will throw in an argumentation like that: Each generation of force users got weaker. From 25,000 years BBY to 4,000 years BBY (time of the acients) that would have been 840 generations of human beings but less than 100 generations for Yoda's species (1,000 generations of humans and still less than 100 for Yoda's species to PT times) so Yoda's bloodline would have suffered 10 times less "weakening" than the ones of the ancient Jedi (like Ulic) and therefore he must be much stronger. Period. (What a stupid idea...)

Either Cay and Nomi are extremly powerful and the Order knew they were enough to do it one their own or....

It was not me who said that the ancient Sith are "better by far" compared to the ancient Jedi.

There were other Jedi, but we only saw those two, as they were important characters in the comic.

Still, I want to see why only two Jedi went after Ulic out of thousands.

Why they did it ? I don't know. But when Ulic is finally defeated it's again only vs Cay and Nomi (he killing Cay and then get his force connection cut by Nomi).

Remember that Ulic had Nadd's Amulet, so he had artifacts of extreme power and that he stalemated with the guy who destroyed Nadd's spirit and many Massassi THEN trained for years before reaching his peak.

Erm...actually all events of the Great Sith War (from Ulic's and Kun's first battle to Kun's defeat on Yavin 4) happened in 3,996 BBY so I wonder where one of them should have had "years" of training from their duel on.

Doublepost...argh...

How would I not take it personal if you tell me that you arguing my person ?

Because you're being overly sensitive. I'm not "arguing your person", I'm arguing the validity of something you popped up with and claim it says "anakin is THE best force user potentially of all time, period, no exceptions" That and you're notorious for arguing in absolutes when there are none. So yeah, I'm arguing your position.

The simple fact you throw in the idea that the must have greater force potential because they are shown to develop greater skills compared to the PT Jedi. Yet again they can’t have a greater potential than Anakin (period) and thereby it’s simply impossible that they would develop force related skill faster than him.
And please don’t get me wrong: I do believe that people like Mace, Yoda, Luke or (ancient times) Kun, Ulic, Nomi came quite close to Anakin’s force potential but they didn’t surpass him. So if they are equal to (let’s say) Luke they would develop in the times they trained from ANH Luke into 2 years past ROTJ Luke. Not that great. But they won’t sure as hell develop past characters like Mace Windu, Yoda or Dooku and that was my entire point here.

The point is, if you want to say that the PT jedi are neccessarily better as a whole (Which was your original point, not this cut up, rehashed version right here) it begs for proof. I haven't seen anything to convince me, nor have many others. It's solely you arguing this position, and you need to solidify it, or agree to disagree. No calling absolutes, Nai. Ancient force users showed ridiculous amounts of power. PT era jedi? didn't. Occum's Razor.

The “official point” is KotoR II itself.
It’s said that Master Vandar was killed on Katarr. Dark Side ending of KotoR he would have been killed during the battle around the SF.

The dark side ending of KOTOR I also has Revan massing ships together to conquer the Republic. Point being, neither side is canon .... yet. And any inconsistancies can be argued at another time, about another thing. You're getting off track... again.

I’m dealing in absolutes when all evidence points out that I’m right. If I throw you out of a space shuttle in outer space naked all evidence says you will die. Now have a look at following points:

a)
There is at least one Sith holocron stored in the temple 2,000 years BBY because a Sith holocron is stolen before the new Sith order is started. The last Sith around were those in KotoR times and that leaves the conclusion that the Holocron must have survived in the temple from KotoR times on.

Because it couldn't possibly have arrived there later on or been moved and moved back, like what happened with Dantooine, right? It had to be sitting there, and the temple had to be okay, and this absolutely proves your point and that's all there is to it, you pwn, is that it, Nai? And back to your original point... the condition of the Coruscant archives proves... what? The PT jedi had powers and ability we didn't see? Occum's Razor, Nai.

b)
Luke finds the Holocron of Vodo who Palpatine before him found in the Jedi temple that means that they had knowledge from Kun’s era stored in the temple in PT times. Another proof for that is that Maul used plans from a Sith holocron stolen from the Jedi temple to construct his lightsaber.

Again, this absolutely means, without exception, that the temple was fine? Okay. Now go with that. This proves WHAT exactly?

c)
They had descriptions of ancient force techniques in the temple (e.g. Moricho, Battle Meditation) that survived their from “ancient” times on again leaving to the conclusion that the archives remained intact from KotoR II time on if not from Kun’s times on or even from the beginning of the Jedi Order.

This is again leaping to conclusions. Does it say that Battle Meditation and Moricho were kept in the archives and come from those times? May I remind you that Force lightning comes from early times, but can be learned in the PT era apparently. This doesn't mean that the knowledge neccessarily trickled down; someone had to learn this stuff somehow. If you're gonna use these two as examples, you need to provide the missing link as to why the jedi order neccessarily had archived data of lots and lots of applicable force techniques from an earlier era that would make them neccessarily better than their predeccessors.

d)
The temple is still intact in PT times.

It's also entirely built different from the temples depicted in KOTOR and the Tales of the Jedi series.

And just to explain my dealing in absolutes here: I’m studying history and that’s how I look on the Star Wars history. So the idea of Coruscant being attacked without that attack being mentioned anywhere seems as abstract to me as saying Caesar conquered the American continent.

Historians don't deal in absolutes, either, Nai. I'm a history major myself, and the rule of thumb is you always keep things as official... until something else pops up to contradict or reinforce it. For example, no one believed Troy was a real city, but it was found. This overturned earlier history books entirely on that topic. Historians don't deal in absolutes either, Nai.

It’s obvious that you either didn’t read my previous post or simply don’t want to accept the facts given.

a) We see families (and bloodlines) surviving all that purges (the Sunrider family, the Keto family).

That's two families, Nai. Two. Doesn't mean "omfg millions o' jedi familes survived. Thus, pt jedi pwn!!"

b) We see force users surviving all that purges (Bastilla, the Jedi Masters in KotoR II, serveral people who survived Order 66)

This is a relative minority first off. Bastila's being a jedi is unverifiable as no ending is canon, and the jedi masters of KOTOR II uh... died, Nai. They are dead.

The killer argument is that the Dark Jedi who interbred with the Sith developed their bloodlines to become stronger while all other bloodlines got weaker. Why the hell did planets like Katarr didn’t develop uber powerful force users (another example for an entire species being strong with the force) or – let’s say it another way – why can’t you accept that Mace Windu is damn powerful considering the fact that he is a member of a species that developed out of a ship filled with Jedi Knights crashed on the planet serveral thousand years before (told in Shatterpoint) with one member of that species developing Jedi Knight / Master like skills without a single minute of Jedi training (being able to deflect blasters for example) ?

Well, I think the difference in these would be that they are, again, closed Force sensitive communities who just sit around and what? Breed force users, or really... people more likely to be force sensitive.

But the jedi order... even those you claim survived... did they all breed with other Force users to maintain the strong bloodline, or did they breed with nonsensitives and perhaps weaken the line? Did they not breed at all? This rides on so many unknowns its not even a viable option in a debate, Nai. You are saying that the PT jedi got stronger; I'm saying it begs for proof, and if anything because of the purges and the interbreeding, it is very likely the bloodlines died out altogether in most cases. Period. So much for a "killer argument".

And btw Nai... it says in the narration in the comic, Sith wars # 6 that "thousands upon thousands" of force users were in the skies over Yavin VI.

So yeah. I'm off to work. You can go ahead and refute all you'd like.

And correction on the first above post... I meant "Slightly over two hundred" at the battle of Geonosis.

why can’t you accept that Mace Windu is damn powerful considering the fact that he is a member of a species that developed out of a ship filled with Jedi Knights crashed on the planet serveral thousand years before

When you said this nai i think you meant race and not species.

I didn't even catch that. It is more of a race, and I think a mixed one too, since unless there were enough jedi on the ship to perpetuate a race of people for a long time, it is likely (and I think is implied in the book, but I haven't read it since February so don't quote me on that one) that such was the case.

If anything, that would reinforce the idea that closed, interbreeding can produce strong Force sensitive peoples. The PT Jedi aren't like this at all. If anything, they discourage breeding and attachment. I remember that Ki-Adi-Mundi was an exception to having a significant other(s) because of the low birthrate of his species. Also, Master Halcyon and Anakin has secret lovers, so it's not beyond thought that PT jedi did breed; just not enough to suggest they interbred to achieve a strong connetion to the Force.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Why would they not use it when it mattered most? Hoenstly, Nai... they showed nothing to indicate that they were better than they are.

Erm ? Yes...of course...if you only use sources you like. Watch the clone war cartoons and use the things seen there. I know all the people seem to be overpowered there compared to the movies but hell...people in the other EU sources also seem to be "overpowered" compared to the one in the movies.

And it's not proof of proof either, Nai. The default stance for any debater listening to another propose in idea (in this case, you saying the PT jedi are better than every one else) is disbelief. False. And it is up to you to prove otherwise. Everyone and his mother thinks the CW cartoon stuff is ridiculous except you now, because it supports your point. So really, does this absence of proof make the PT jedi better? I mean, in that case I could argue that the absence of proof on the earlier force users must mean they are also very good. See where that leads us? Nowhere.

No. I'm not talking about the CW cartoon because it supports my point but because it's simply part of the EU universe. People dislike the NJO (in fact most people here agree it's ridiculous - I would agree on the CW cartoons being redicoulus) but despite of that fact the NJO books still are valid EU material that can be used in arguments. Same counts for the DE comics or (if you like it) even the KotoR games. The simple fact that you, me or anyone else doesn't like something doesn't makes the thing disliked invalid as a source.

I like how that ship suddenly undermines the ancient Force users. They must all be weaker than the PT ones simply because of a ship. How quaint. I like how you're ignoring the obvious- the ancients actually HAD the knowledge to build a ship like that. Obviously they understood the Force VERY well, and this should not take away from their prowess; if anything, it should verify it. And Nomi Sunrider used a technique she learned from Odun-Orr in which she effectively and suddenly shut Ulic off from the Force. No prep, no ship, no nothing. Why didn't Yoda do that to Dooku or Sidious in the PT? COuld it be he.... couldn't, Nai?

First:
The ship ? What about chrystals, armulets, artifacts and stuff like that boosting force powers up. What do you think all that stuff was invented for (from a authors point of view) ? It's limiting their natural abilities they won't have without the stuff they used.
In fact...when a PT force user uses the same stuff he suddenly developes into a force god (see DE Sidious).

Second:
Sure they understood the force very well. How would they understand the force better than people 4,000 years later who had those 4,000 years to solve more riddles when it comes to the force ? See...the people in ancient Egypt had tons of knowledge about certain things but still our knowledge today is simply better. You sometimes should get rid of the idea that "being ancient" doesn't necessarily mean "being better" because you seem to use that idea very often even in situation where it doesn't fit.

Third:
Why Yoda wouldn't cut peoples connection to the force ? Hell...because of the new Jedi code obviously. In KotoR II the Jedi Masters hesitated and did a lot of thinking before deciding to cut the Exile's connection to the force and they thought that the Exile would have been able to simply destroy the force itself if they didn't do that. Still they hesitated doing it. Now why would any PT Jedi do something like that keeping the fact in mind nearly all "aggressive" force powers (or even aggressive use of the force) were forbidden (but were still known to them) at least used against other intelligent beings ?

Cutting someones connection to the force off is something that can't be undone later and since Kreia (or the Exile) descriped that process feeling similar to "dying" I doubt any PT Jedi would use it against whoever.

Because the practice wasn't to train younglings. You said it yourself. But it's not a complete inconsistency since they went ahead and said that the notion of training jedi from youth didn't come until abour Ruusan time period. So how does this change anything? With less training they became just as good if not even better.

The inconsisties aren't in the training methods but in the training time and what is archieved with that training time.

Alright, I concede on the Battle meditation. I didn't remember either of those two using it. But the ancients still used Force techniques and powers above and beyond those of the PT era. In particular, Nomi's ability to tear Ulic from the force is a considerable and effective talent. Also, when Vodo and the jedi captured Ulic after Aleema betrayed him, they put him into a shield of light that he (despite being a powerful jedi and Sith lord) couldn't break free from. Both of those are fine instances of when the ancient jedi used exceptional force powers. And I'm not even mentioning the ancient Sith, who were above even that.

I already gave reasons why no PT Jedi would cut somebody's connection to the force. That shield of light required serveral Jedi (as you said) and we never had serveral Jedi with one of them having Vodo's force knowledge together to do something like that. I mean...Vodo + Cay + Nomi are a powerful combination.

Oh I get it. So because of their status (old and crippled..) they aren't viable examples of PT jedi turned Sith being much much weaker than their ancient counterparts? Please...

No. This is only one side (yeah...in fact...somebody that did lose a great part of his original potential would be a great Sith Lord - Vader) and I said on multiple occassions that the Sith lost knowledge from ancient times on since they didn't have any real archieves (the pre Ruusan order used a Sith holocron stolen from the Jedi temple) and the Sith order was extinct on multiple occasions (after the Great Hyperspace War, after the Great Sith War, after the Jedi Civil War, after Ruusan).

So you idea that the PT Jedi must be weaker than the ancient Jedi because they spawned the better Sith Lords simply doesn't work.

Touche on the listing. You can put forth data, if you can't always back up your argument. But really... did the PT jedi show sufficient saber-to-saber fighting techniques? No.

No ?

Assajj Ventress killed jedi masters, and defeated the likes of Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto. Sidious murdered the order as a whole, and personally killed four. Dooku was beyond the ability of the majority of the jedi to fight, and Maul effectively killed a jedi master who was renowned for his wisdom and cleverness. This is an era where Niman (The diplomat's form) was commonplace, obviously. Since you like to use sampling yourself, try this: at Geonosis there were slightly over a hundred jedi there. An overwhelming majority practiced Niman. -If- this is reflective of the entire order (and we're never specifically shown otherwise) since they ARE keepers of the peace and not soldiers with no known natural enemies until the Sith reemerge, it's very likely that the majority of the order practices Niman.

What the hell do you think the ancient Jedi were ? They were keepers of peace. It's not that they were constantly challenged with Sith. In fact in the entirety of 5,000 years the only "ancient" Jedi that were constantly challenged Sith were the Jedi that lived in the era from 2,000 to 1,000 BBY.

All other conflicts between Jedi and Sith didn't last very long:
Great Hyperspace War = less than a year (5,000 BBY)
Battle against Nadd = a single fight 4,400 BBY
Great Sith War = less than a year (3,996 BBY) even if you consider all events before the Jedi had hardly seen more than 3 major battles (2 battles against Ommin and Amanoa during the Nadd uprising)
Jedi Civil War = 5 years (3,956-3,951 BBY) but as I said that was more Jedi assasination than anything else.

So do you want to tell me that the 2,000 to 1,000 BBY Jedi are the best (so...somebody like Lord Hoth = best Jedi ever) ?

And Ataru didn't help Yoda overcome Makashi or Sidious, either. The point is, Makashi is the refinement of saber to saber combat, hailing from an ancient era. Dooku's saber hilt is even supposed to be ancient in design. Just because Dooku can't defeat Yoda using Makashi doesn't mean there weren't practitioners in the past who couldn't. Absence of proof, Nai. It cuts both ways here and there.

Name one single being that trained that form longer than Dooku did. See...you develop skill through practice and it doesn't matter if you fight other people in sparing matches or in actual wars. Training is all that matters. Now...as I said. Name a single being that trained a form for more than 6 decades or - throwing Yoda into the field - trained with a lightsaber for 9 centuries.

Vaapad is a COMPLETION of Juyo; it is not a whole 'nother style. And in any case, you argued that they all use the basics, so what difference should that make in your opinion anyway?

4,000 years more time to refine the basic movements ?

And secondly, only Mace Windu has shown multiple style mastery, and this is implied in his form.

a)
Multiple style mastery is implied in mastering Vaapad (form IV, V and VII) so you would have at least two people since Depa Billaba mastered Vaapad too.

b)
Considering the fact that all Jedi are trained in form I from infancy on until they reach Padawan status (that might most likely be enough time to master that basic style) you can consider everyone mastering a style not being form I a multiple form master.

c)
Most likely the people responsible for lightsaber instruction mastered more than one style (or two if you count form I in) that would be Yoda, Cin Drallig and Sora Bulq.

d)
Name one single being in the ancient times mastering a single or even multiple styles. In fact they most likely wouldn't been able to master one (name one single being that MASTERED a combat style in 4 years) and the idea of using multiple styles was first brought up with the PT.

Now the only persons you can consider to have "mastered" a single form would be the Jedi Masters shown in the PT or people that designed their own style (Kun, Hord).

in the PT era, children learn under multiple masters until they are apprenticed to one person. Then they Study under that master primarily from that point on. It's the way it is. As for learning as younglings, etc. ... do you honestly remember everything you learned in grade school as a child? Do you think that despite research indicating that youth generally don't develop most logical functions and retention features until past their early preteens, these children learned enough from multiple masters to what? Be good? Please...

Again, you're wrong here. First "Shadowhunter" Darsha mentioned that she had participated in multiple lectures held by Yoda even when she was already a Padawan so they keep on learning under multiple masters. Second: Mace Windu is able to remember Yoda giving him "lessons" when he was a baby (Shatterpoint) - obviously the memory of force users works better than that of normal humans.

Voma survived. Who else? And really, are you going to argue that all those jedi didn't die without kin? That they all secretly had hidden away children and family members who survived the purges?

The only purge that matters here is the purge following the Jedi Civil War under Sion / Nihilus. Now...you are a Jedi and you know that a huge amount of force users got killed by Sith assasins: What would you do ? Try to hide yourself and your children somewhere.
There are millions (!) of civilisated worlds in the Galaxy - how many Jedi do you think the Sith could have exterminated in 5 years ?

And for the bloodlines that obviously survived:
The Sunrider family (still around in Dark Empire times - Vima Da-Boda)
The Baas family (still around 600 years BBY - Bodo Baas)
The Keto family (still around in PT times - Serra Keto)

The Battle of Ruusan doesn't apply here since the Army of Light (being only a part of the Jedi Order) went to Ruusan to face the Sith.

How do you know the PT Jedi order didn’t have watchmen ? Absence of proof isn’t proof of absence. It’s at least very unlikely that all individuals been trained by the Jedi were all stationed on Coruscant since we actually only see a few people running around in the temple.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. It's also not proof of your argument. That statement simply means there is the -possibility- for such a scenario, and I've never doubted that. But the ancient Jedi order DID have Jedi watchmen. And if you're sampling again and basing the idea that the jedi were sent out to many places and weren't centralized on us seeing a "few" jedi in the movies is poor poor reasoning. By the same outlook, we never saw anyone but Anakin being tested and that by a jedi master. How can we believe that there are virtually millions or even billions of midi-chlorian public testing machines.? You need to show us an instance where the PT jedi had watchmen. If anything, it's said in The Approaching Storm that having more than two jedi in any place away from the Core worlds was unheard of.

I wanted to proof that the PT Jedi attacked Geonosis MUCH faster than the ancient Jedi attacked Kun on Yavin 4.

The ancient jedi rallied -thousands upon thousands- of jedi to one single moon with a Republic fleet! That is the word vebatim from the narration of the Sith Wars # 6 comic. It's only reasonable that it took them MUCH longer, considering they rallied ALL of the jedi as was noted in the same comic and that their jedi were spread out a lot, since they have more active enclaves back then and Jedi Watchmen in key solar systems. What does that prove at all, Nai?

Halfway across the galaxy [b]from Coruscant:
“They'll never get there in time to save him. They have to come halfway across the galaxy. Look, Geonosis is
less than a parsec away.” [/B]

Cool. I was wrong. Proves... what?

I’m talking about the size of the order and not about the skill level of the Jedi. Yes they must have gathered their forces instantly. Being more centralized is a non-issue here since the ancient Jedi against Kun had [b]much more time to prepare for battle...[/B]

Why are we talking about the deployment of Geonosia? My only real conmfusion on that was how they scrambled all those fighers and whatnot that fast.

If you want to talk about “skill” the Jedi that Nadd (a single person) killed with a blaster must be considered to be weaker than PT Younglings since can PT Younglings can deflect blaster fire from a single source and the ancient Jedi obviously can’t.

This is ridiculous. I'm surprised you're getting this low on fresh points, Nai. Nadd killed jedi with a blaster (and he's also noted for having extreme Force powers and a short lightsaber) . You have NO information on how each death occured at all, but you're leaping to the conclusion that the ancient jedi can't deflect blaster bolts like a PT padawan... despite the fact that they -created- the Soresu style by the KOTOR era. What? Did Nadd brandish a blaster and they crapped themselves and died? Please... try again.

As you can see on the map the “Correlian run” (yellow route) perfectly leads from Coruscant to Geonosis / Tatooine. I doubt the way from Coruscant to Geonosis would take much longer than flying from Tatooine to Alderaan considering how close Alderaan / Coruscant and Geonosis / Tatooine are to each other.

This is a game map, Nai. If you want to convince me, get the spaceroute time listings from the Dvd special features and prove me wrong. Then... while you're at it nitpicking at everything while proving nothing, you can go back to your original stance and prove up.

Why is it so hard to understand ? As I said...in industrial countries nowadays [b]every newborn child is tested for some deceases via bloodtest. Having the technology to do midi-chlorian testing with a simple bloodtest why would the Jedi NOT install it in every damn hospital (or make it part of every medical-droid) in the Galaxy and simply have every newborn child tested for midi-chlorians. That’s actually MUCH more logical than assuming that they travel each planet in the Galaxy and recruit children they coincidentally ran across. [/B]

Nai, some planets don't even have a spaceport or a decent hospital in Republic space, much less anything else. Commoners in Republic space have repeatedly been shown to be ignorant to the jedi and their powers in ALL times, and there is absolutly NO evidence to suggest what you are suggesting! Isn't that obvious? You are basing this on NOTHING! Don't you think if the Star Wars galaxy was so high tech and in tune they would at least mention this testing somewhere in the movies, books, etc? No, because they obviously didn't have anything like that in general, and it's doubtful they would, because Force sensitive babies could be killed for their differences or potential threat, captured and sold to slave owners or even ransomned to the jedi order, or anything. But we have NO instance of this, and it BEGS for proof. Done.

Qui-Gon is perfectly sure that they would have found Anakin being a newborn child if he just had been born in the Republic. So...why is he so sure ? Because their must be a method they can find [b]every child strong enough with the force to become a Jedi Knight and since all PT Jedi were trained from infancy on (except Anakin and I’m talking about 50 individuals I can name) they seem to be quite successful in recruiting people.[/B]

Qui-Gon was also pretty sure he could take out Maul, too. This statement from one person doesn't prove that there is beyond a shadow of a doubt some mass recruitment blood testing plan. There probably is a plan for jedi masters and knights ot scour planets to find potential candidates, but the issue of them all being infants is moot; you naturally wouldn't see anything else since they didn't believe in it as a rule. Also, a Force user who never learns of their capabilities isn't too much a threat in most circumstances (Look at Luke... he was ignorant of his abilities and never displayed them before ANH) so it is likely that any they found above the age limit were either left alone, and possibly monitored or sent to the agricultural corps.

Oh. If we wouldn’t know that Agen Kolar and at least Darth Maul both were coming from Iridonia you would have got me there...

That might be right or wrong. Either way, isolating races to their respective planets when they are found is inaccurate. Depa Billaba was found in space. It's a bad reasoning technique.

Oh…cool. Now Ulic Quel-Droma the Jedi [b]Knight that went Dark Side suddenly developed into a Jedi Master despite the fact that he wasn’t able to use the force any more since Nomi cut his connection to the force ?[/B]

Are you saying it didn't happen? And besides, Vodo could probably fek up most PT jedi. He was a lightsaber and melee specialist for a good deal of his extended life. His best student was Exar Kun, a former Jedi. And if Cay can give Ulic trouble... (Ulic who could hold his own against the deadly Kun) it would make sense that Cay Qel-Droma is capable enough to stand up to most PT jedi masters.

Now [b]Jedi Knight Ulic Quel-Droma with maximum five years of training and some minor battle experience will be powerful enough to defeat Mace (being twices as old, having 10 times the Jedi training and more battle experience) or Yoda (being 30 times as old having 200 times the Jedi training and more battle experience). I’m totally sure this will work...NOT. [/B]

Hey, I didn't make the rules. Ulic was a threat to Kun. Kun could smoke the hell out of Mace or Yoda, more often than not. Considering that Yoda could barely overcome Sidious (indeed, in saber skills he eventually did, but was defeated anyways) and Exar Kun is better than Sidious on all fronts, this is a natural assumption. I could be totally off base, but that' sup to you to either prove or awknowledge and agree to disagree.

Better yet, instead of replying to my every word, why don't you just type up a thesis on why the PT jedi are as great as you claim. Half of this is you nitpicking and going way too in depth on minor points.

This is tiring, Nai. I'm getting tired of going back and forth with you; it gets nothing accomplished. Two things: Vader is possibly genetically altered to have a high midi-chlorian count, higher even than Yoda. This means he is the exception to the rule, not the norm. Second, you cannot master Form I in infantcy. This is noted that in The Cestus Deception, despite his constant training and dedication to Form I, Kit Fisto is not a master yet.

And the rest I am not arguing anymore. This is ridiculous. IF you want to convince us of your opinion, Nai, you need to form a cohesive and solid argument. I'm not gonna reply to your nitpicking posts anymore, because they are getting WAY off track. And after you do this (or refuse to do this, even.. whatever) if I'm convinced, I'll admit it. If not, agree to disagree. This is tiring for me, and I'm thinkiing for everyone else.

Well, this debate has become an argument. Little civility going on here. But I must agree. No one's budging, and all we're doing is straining relations. I say you guys drop it.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Because you're being overly sensitive. I'm not "arguing your person", I'm arguing the validity of something you popped up with and claim it says "anakin is THE best force user potentially of all time, period, no exceptions" That and you're notorious for arguing in absolutes when there are none. So yeah, I'm arguing your position.

What should I else use than absolutes when Lucas always comes up with absolutes ?
- Anakin was conceived by midi-chlorians. An absolute. How should somebody develop more potential than a being that "the force" itself created ?
- Lucas himself said that Anakin was the force user with the most potential ever. You can argue that back an forth. Fact is that NJO Luke Skywalker having less potential than Anakin developed force powers that can compete with the ones of the Ancient Sith Lords (yet he's no darksider). So if Anakin had more potential than Luke (that being an absolute) how would he NOT have been the best force user EVER if Luke rivals the best we have having less potential than Anakin.

The point is, if you want to say that the PT jedi are neccessarily better as a whole (Which was your original point, not this cut up, rehashed version right here) it begs for proof. I haven't seen anything to convince me, nor have many others. It's solely you arguing this position, and you need to solidify it, or agree to disagree. No calling absolutes, Nai. Ancient force users showed ridiculous amounts of power. PT era jedi? didn't. Occum's Razor.

Again. I never stated that the entirety of the PT Jedi's is superior to the entirety of the ancient Jedi. My idea was that the "major" force users of the PT Jedi (Mace, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda) could hold their own against ancient time force users. Exactly THIS is what I was talking about.
And sorry...you claimed that the ancient Jedi must be absolutely more powerful than the PT ones without having proof yourself. Some ancient Jedi showed some nice amounts of power - same was shown by some PT Jedi. Now that tells us what ? Nothing...

Because it couldn't possibly have arrived there later on or been moved and moved back, like what happened with Dantooine, right? It had to be sitting there, and the temple had to be okay, and this absolutely proves your point and that's all there is to it, you pwn, is that it, Nai? And back to your original point... the condition of the Coruscant archives proves... what? The PT jedi had powers and ability we didn't see? Occum's Razor, Nai.

As I said: And Caesar had conquered the American continent in ancient times. Because it could have happend.

It's as simply as that: Either you want to stay inside the Star Wars history told or you want to completely ignore it like you do it now. We know that the greatest military strategist we know about all failed to take Coruscant over or didn't even try because they knew they would fail (Ulic, Exar, Thrawn, Revan, Grievous) but now there must be some possibilty for some person never mentioned to do something that requires having military forces that the galaxy had never seen before.

In fact Janus...yes there is a "possibility" that Coruscant was attacked. Exactly the same possibility there is that you receive a direct hit from a meteor into your left eye while putting your head in the sand. That would be a chance of 100 billion to one (?). So it's save to simply say it never happened at least saver to assume that it did happen with the single reason to cut the PT Jedi's amount of knowledge down. It's simply speaking against all established facts we know so far so why the hell assume it.

On that level you can close this forum because in every versus thread I can always say "There is a chance that X might defeat Y" totally against the establish facts and you keep turning in circles without end. There is a chance that Han Solo will kill Ragnos in frontal combat with a single blaster shot. There is a chance that Jabba might kill Exar Kun in a lightsaber duel. In fact those "chances" are so little that they are nonexistant so why mentioning them ? And that's exactly what you do here...

May I remind you that Force lightning comes from early times, but can be learned in the PT era apparently. This doesn't mean that the knowledge neccessarily trickled down; someone had to learn this stuff somehow.

Again throwing in assumptions were the "most likely" case is simply ignored because you want to make your own oppinion the right one. We know that the PT Sith order had access to Sith holocrons (stolen from the Jedi archieves) and they had personal information from Freedon Nadd. Now you want to tell me that not learned techniques from that ancient sources but instead developed the exact same stuff new again ?

If you're gonna use these two as examples, you need to provide the missing link as to why the jedi order neccessarily had archived data of lots and lots of applicable force techniques from an earlier era that would make them neccessarily better than their predeccessors.

Again I was only stating that they had ancient knowledge accessable and not that this will make them better than the ancient Jedi. You assumed that they must be weaker because "losing knowledge" and I simply proved (note that) that they had knowledge from "ancient" times.

Historians don't deal in absolutes, either, Nai. I'm a history major myself, and the rule of thumb is you always keep things as official... until something else pops up to contradict or reinforce it. For example, no one believed Troy was a real city, but it was found. This overturned earlier history books entirely on that topic. Historians don't deal in absolutes either, Nai.

Maybe I've simply used the wrong words here. If you have a theory you can consider it to be "true" unless something contradicts it. Now...you would not even think about Caesar conquering America, would you ? The same way I would not think about Coruscant being attacked between KotoR II and PT times.
Because while there is tons of evidence that it has never happened there is no evidence that it could have happened. So why even assume that it could have happened. It's simply senseless for me.

That's two families, Nai. Two. Doesn't mean "omfg millions o' jedi familes survived. Thus, pt jedi pwn!!"

Where the hell I said millions. Again you said that most likely all powerful bloodlines were exterminated because of some purges. Hell...we have more than a dozen of force users surviving Order 66 and that Purge when you had a "centralized" Jedi Order and Sidious / Vader had nearly 2 decades and an entire army to exterminate them all but Sion and Nihilus with some Assasins should have done a better job ? Most likely not...

But the jedi order... even those you claim survived... did they all breed with other Force users to maintain the strong bloodline, or did they breed with nonsensitives and perhaps weaken the line? Did they not breed at all? This rides on so many unknowns its not even a viable option in a debate, Nai. You are saying that the PT jedi got stronger; I'm saying it begs for proof, and if anything because of the purges and the interbreeding, it is very likely the bloodlines died out altogether in most cases. Period. So much for a "killer argument". [/B]

a)
The bloodlines we see that have survived don't seem any weaker than the people in ancient times. Thereby your "bloodlines getting weaker over time" theory is not viable.

b)
As I said the entire bloodline theory is completely stupid since most force users "popped up out of nowhere" instead of "coming from bloodlines strong with the force". See Kun, Nadd, Nomi Sunrider most of all Jedi in any times.

c)
For the developing of the Jedi Order. You said yourself (and this is true afaik that the ancient times order was less centralized than the PT one - at least until KotoR times). Now we have a totaly centralized Order of Jedi Knights (at least from 1,000 BBY on). The idea of Jedi having children together would be actually more likely when most of all Jedi lived centralized on a single place and (before somebody starts arguing that the Jedi have to be celibate):

"Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships" (George Lucas in an interview).

So actually the enviroment for producing "more force sensitives" were better in PT times than they were in ancient times even when you consider that they had sex with non-Jedi their would have been a huge number of force sensitive persons (not force senstive enough to become Jedi Knights) near the Order (most likely on Coruscant).

Ignore last post, Janus... I will simply give you a full theory post since this is leading nowhere...

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Well, this debate has become an argument. Little civility going on here. But I must agree. No one's budging, and all we're doing is straining relations. I say you guys drop it.

Agreed. This is becoming a nitpick fest on both sides, and I'm more than a little tired of it.