Magneto vs The Hulk

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Niether does Mercury, or the Moon. An Earth-sized magnet of pure Iron would have considerable gravity, much greater than that of Earth's. It would surely collide with Earth because of the immense attraction. Regular timeline Magneto could never manipulate something if such magnitude. AOA Magneto? Maybe...

And an ordinary refrigerator magnet can generate enough force to lift a mass against all the force of gravity generated by the entire planet. Imagine how much force could be generated from a planet-sized magnet such as earth. Magneto is certainly capable of manipulating something of that magnitude.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
And an ordinary refrigerator magnet can generate enough force to lift a mass against all the force of gravity generated by the entire planet.

Second, your argument makes no sense, because if you jump, you also defy - I quote - all the force of gravity generated by the entire planet. A bird defies gravity. An appletree carrying its apples defies gravity, because without the strong branches, the apples would fall to the ground and so on...

Third, I wouldn't call a refrigerator magnet an impressive "mass".

"a mass?" yes, maybe 3 oz. or so. The magnetic repulsion between the opposite poles of a weak refrigerator magnet can be overcome by human force. Try forcing two refrigerator magnets together at like poles; it's quite easy. Such a magnet could not repel another magnet the size of Earth; it's gravity would overcome such weak magnetic repulsion. But perhaps you are right, but it is debatable whether or not Magneto could manipulate such an immense magnetic field.

Gravity (a mass relative force) is relatively weak, in comparison to magnetism or nuclear force. Gravity increases in power with mass (e.g. The sun, or a black hole.)

The statement that "no atmosphere = no gravity" is absurd.

This is just getting ridiculous now.

I mean, I know I debate hard and debate well but this has turned from being a fun and heated Magneto Vs Hulk debate to some science seminar. I've said all I had to say, now I shall depart.

Keep the thread alive peeps, keep the thread alive.

-AC

Well, at least when I stated my point of perspective this thread was at least somewhat half-scientific logic/comic speculation, now it has turned into an all out physics "showcase(who knows more scientific laws)..

Another case of comic geeks "over-intellectualizing" a situation/fight...Trust me it's not that serious, a battle between Magneto/Hulk wouldn't requre e=mc2....You guy's should really stop trying to compete at who knows more physics than the other and post comic-orientated opinions..

You know, by reading this forum, it seems that the hulk has been dubbed the most likely to win. But in the polls, it says that Magneto is leading the hulk by 16.66%.

ok, I don't know what was discussed since there are 52 pages here. But I'll say two things:

1)Magneto would own Hulk. He's done it already, back in the 80s. He ABSORBED all the gamma radiation out of the Hulk and turned him back into Banner, stating, "You seem to forget that the source of your power exists at my pleasure. Gamma is part of the electromagnetic spectrum".

2)Magneto would own Graviton, because:

a)Graviton only controls gravitons, not gravitic energy. That makes him more like the Pyro of gravity than the Magneto of gravity. Magneto can control and create electromagnetic energy - that's a much finer aspect of control than gravitons, which are themselves charged.

b)Being charged particles, any command Graviton gives to gravitons would be overrided by Magneto's counter-command, since EM energy is 138 times more powerful than gravitic energy. He could simply crush Graviton under his own power. Graviton can literally do...NOTHING to Magneto.

Magneto can also - control the iron in Gravy's blood, which he does frequently, he can control or erase Gravy's mind by controlling the electrical impulses in it (he's done that at least twice in the comics), or he can just destroy Gravy's nervous system entirely (he's done that once).

Magneto has likely controlled ionic energy, gamma energy and to a lesser extent, cosmic energy. That means people like Nefaria, Black Bolt and the Hulk are all vulnerable to Magneto.

I'm surprised this is even a discussion point.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Magneto's power varies from time-line to time-line. In the Age of Apocalypse reality, (the one in which Xavier sacrificed his life to save Eric,) Magneto is a protagonist, leader of the X-Men, and he's insanely powerful. He literally tore Apocalypse to shreds, using only his magnetic powers. In the "normal" time-line though, he could never perform such a feat, his powers are considerably less than his "AOA-self". Hulk's power is also greatly augmented and differentiated depending on the reality or incarnation. Regular Magneto wouldn't stand a chance against the Guilt Hulk. It all depends on the reality.

616 Magneto is A LOT more powerful than AOA Magneto.

1)AOA Magneto is in his 70s, and well past his prime. 616 Magneto is in his 30s (he was de-aged and changed to the "prime of his life" by Alpha)

2)AOA Magneto lost HALF his power, giving it to Rogue. That never happened to 616 Magneto

3) 616 Magneto's "near discorporation with Earth's magneticsphere" has left him more powerful than ever, during the Fatal Attractions powerup.

616 Magneto is over twice as powerful as AOA Magneto.

"1)Magneto would own Hulk. He's done it already, back in the 80s."

Anybody wanna laugh at this before I do?

The only parts you debated against Hulk with are "Magneto would own him. He done it in the 80s."

Gotta love it when people come in trying to lay the law down and just look rather comedic.

My Dad could jive like Elvis back in the 80s. He can't do it in 2005. Why is Magneto any different? I didn't age him. You however, obviously believe he isn't subject to ageing.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"1)Magneto would own Hulk. He's done it already, back in the 80s."

Anybody wanna laugh at this before I do?

The only parts you debated against Hulk with are "Magneto would own him. He done it in the 80s."

Gotta love it when people come in trying to lay the law down and just look rather comedic.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. It was ridiculing it for the sake of ridiculing when I mentioned a very specific situation in which Magneto defeated the Hulk. I referenced the decade because that was when the issue was written. They haven't had much contact since then. I'm disappointed. I was hoping for a better response.

My Dad could jive like Elvis back in the 80s. He can't do it in 2005. Why is Magneto any different? I didn't age him. You however, obviously believe he isn't subject to ageing.

-AC

I should mention, for anyone who doesn't know (like AC), that Marvel time isn't real time. The issue was written in the 80s. By Marvel time, that was only a few years ago. You're avoiding the point - Magneto absorbed Hulk's gamma radiation. He's done it before, he'd do it again, he'll do it every time if he's so inclined.

There are more interesting and competitive battles for Magneto than this.

"They haven't had much contact since then. I'm disappointed. I was hoping for a better response."

After claiming that an 80s issue is overly valid today? Sure, reference. Alot has changed since then.

"I should mention, for anyone who doesn't know (like AC), that Marvel time isn't real time. The issue was written in the 80s. By Marvel time, that was only a few years ago. You're avoiding the point - Magneto absorbed Hulk's gamma radiation. He's done it before, he'd do it again, he'll do it every time if he's so inclined."

I am aware that Marvel time isn't real time. Even so, alot has changed since the 80s. Hulk is unfathomably stronger at base now than he was then, has reached new levels in his strength, evolved. Not saying don't reference the comic, reference it all you want. Just don't see why you think it indicates that Magneto of today would win.

-AC

I have something to add. Even if someone like magneto gets 20 years older, they may have some muscular distrophy, but their mutant powers wouldn't be any worse, if there was any change it would be a positive one.

Magneto has had two power ups since then.

1)He was launched against the EM field of Earth, which increased his reactivity with EM energy right before the Fatal Attractions storyline.

2)More recently, when he developed the ability to create wormholes, nuclear explosions and vortexes.

But given the very specific nature of Hulk's power and Magneto's power, none of that really matters. Hulk's power is gamma-based. Magneto controls gamma energy. It's like arguing Iron Man vs. Magneto - it's lopsided because of the very nature of their powers.

So Magneto is more powerful today than he was when that issue was written. Hulk *may* be stronger, but what difference does that make when it wouldn't be a physical contest?

Hulk is stronger today that he was back then, by some light year measured margin.

What makes you think Magneto can actually absorb enough away from Hulk NOW, without actually overloading himself? Especially since he isn't fighting a dumb Hulk anymore. He's fighting a stronger, smarter Hulk. Who would possibly just keep pumping out Hulk juice while Mags sucks it up. Magneto cannot harbour the power of gamma that Hulk can.

Again it comes down to power. As powerful as Mags is, he doesn't have the overall power to defeat the Hulk.

-AC

What gives you the impression that Hulk is lightyears more powerful now? What specific power ups has he had? Nothing I've read since the mid-80s has given me the impression that there's any version of Hulk more powerful than the same ol Savage Hulk we've had for decades. Magneto defeated the same Hulk that braced a mountain in Secret Wars. What's he done to show you that he's more powerful than that today?

And Magneto doesn't have to absorb the energy into himself. He can disperse it. He can put Hulk to sleep by disrupting his electro-chemical balance, while absorbing or dispersing his gamma energy. Two-pronged attack. Best of all, Magneto doesn't even have to be on the battlefield while doing it. He can just fly into space and do it. Or be miles away and do it. Hell, he can use his control of light to create a hologram of himself (he's done that before) that Hulk thinks he's fighting while Magneto is off elsewhere draining Hulk dry. Magneto can even render himself invisible by bending light around him, so he can watch Hulk make a fool of himself while doing any of the above attacks and drinking a latte. I can think of millions of ways to end this with Mags being in no danger at all.

Hulk is limited to physical contact. Magneto is in another class of power altogether.

"What gives you the impression that Hulk is lightyears more powerful now? What specific power ups has he had? Nothing I've read since the mid-80s has given me the impression that there's any version of Hulk more powerful than the same ol Savage Hulk we've had for decades."

What gives you the impression Hulk needs power ups? Have you been reading his comics consistantly since the 80s? I have seen dramatic increase in what Hulk can do now and has done through the 90s and new millenium, to what Hulk did in the 80s. Not to mention that it has been brought to light that Hulk cannot be permanently killed. If you can read Hulk's comics now and not see a HUGE HUGE difference, well. Then you are either ignoring it or you're just not perceptive because everyone I know who actually reads Hulk, has noticed the same thing.

"And Magneto doesn't have to absorb the energy into himself. He can disperse it. He can put Hulk to sleep by disrupting his electro-chemical balance, while absorbing or dispersing his gamma energy. Two-pronged attack. Best of all, Magneto doesn't even have to be on the battlefield while doing it. He can just fly into space and do it. Or be miles away and do it. Hell, he can use his control of light to create a hologram of himself (he's done that before) that Hulk thinks he's fighting while Magneto is off elsewhere draining Hulk dry. Magneto can even render himself invisible by bending light around him, so he can watch Hulk make a fool of himself while doing any of the above attacks and drinking a latte. I can think of millions of ways to end this with Mags being in no danger at all."

Alot of pretty words and theories. However, the one word I noticed come up alot is "can". Magneto CAN do this, he CAN do that. The question I pose to you is, would he? Your answer will almost certainly be yes, obviously because you are backing Mags. However, if he COULD and WOULD do all of these things, he would have many more kills, victories and triumphs than he has now. So he either doesn't use those abilities or he hasn't even proven to have them. This whole debate, just like the Juggernaut one is "He can", "He could". Without thinking "would?".

Again I will pose the question that everyone is avoiding. Disperse, or absorb, Hulk simply has too much power. Magneto does not have enough power, ability or strength to be able to do anything that will give him the win. As Hulk's base strength is much much greater now, the amount of gamma inside is obviously going to be greater. So "sapping" the energy is no longer as easy as it was.

Magneto doesn't have enough power or control over enough power to defeat the Hulk. He can do many things TO the Hulk, none of which will stop him. None of which will constitute a win. Magneto IS in another class of power, but being in another class doesn't mean another level.

It all comes down to power, in the end. Not necessarily strength, power. Something Magneto doesn't have enough of to win this.

-AC

Christ!...are you guys still arguing this?

Why would Magneto need to absorb any of the Hulks strength or power or whatever? That makes no sense to me.

Magneto would win, hands down. Take the Pheonix for example. She is a cosmic being, cosmic powers, all wrapped up in a flesh body. All he had to do was direct stored up energy into her body and she dropped like a rock.

You wanna debate the Hulk being able to defeat Phoenix?

I guess you likely will.

"You wanna debate the Hulk being able to defeat Phoenix?

I guess you likely will."

Why am I gonna say "No" if I think there's debate to be had? Why does Magneto beating one person, mean that he can beat the Hulk? That's a stupid way of comparing. If I can beat a guy up, but my friend can't, it doesn't mean I can therefore automatically beat my friend up. Silly.

This isn't Magneto Vs Phoenix. It's Magneto Vs Hulk.

No one is proving what I asked to be proven and yet, I've just been doing the debating here. I'm gonna sit back and stop proving things, stop asking things and let YOU people show me something that I haven't seen yet. It has to be real.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"What gives you the impression that Hulk is lightyears more powerful now? What specific power ups has he had? Nothing I've read since the mid-80s has given me the impression that there's any version of Hulk more powerful than the same ol Savage Hulk we've had for decades."

What gives you the impression Hulk needs power ups? Have you been reading his comics consistantly since the 80s? I have seen dramatic increase in what Hulk can do now and has done through the 90s and new millenium, to what Hulk did in the 80s. Not to mention that it has been brought to light that Hulk cannot be permanently killed. If you can read Hulk's comics now and not see a HUGE HUGE difference, well. Then you are either ignoring it or you're just not perceptive because everyone I know who actually reads Hulk, has noticed the same thing.

I've been reading, and I haven't seen him to anything to top bracing a mountain. What's your evidence that he has retained more gamma energy? You're speculating that he has more gamma radiation, but there's been nothing to suggest as much. What's been a specific feat that surpassed bracing a mountain? Who has he beaten now that he couldn't beat before? What scale of feats has he accomplished that surpassed what he's done before? Most people agree that Savage Hulk is the most powerful version of Hulk, and this "intelligent" Hulk that you're pitting against Magneto isn't as strong. Perhaps I'm wrong and he HAS become "lightyears" more powerful...but name some feats to back up that observation.

"And Magneto doesn't have to absorb the energy into himself. He can disperse it. He can put Hulk to sleep by disrupting his electro-chemical balance, while absorbing or dispersing his gamma energy. Two-pronged attack. Best of all, Magneto doesn't even have to be on the battlefield while doing it. He can just fly into space and do it. Or be miles away and do it. Hell, he can use his control of light to create a hologram of himself (he's done that before) that Hulk thinks he's fighting while Magneto is off elsewhere draining Hulk dry. Magneto can even render himself invisible by bending light around him, so he can watch Hulk make a fool of himself while doing any of the above attacks and drinking a latte. I can think of millions of ways to end this with Mags being in no danger at all."

Alot of pretty words and theories. However, the one word I noticed come up alot is "can". Magneto CAN do this, he CAN do that.

Not sure what you're getting at here. He CAN do this, and he CAN do that, because he HAS done this and he HAS done that. We're speaking of a theoretical battle, therefore I'm phrasing it as such.

The question I pose to you is, would he?

Your answer will almost certainly be yes

However, if he COULD and WOULD do all of these things, he would have many more kills, victories and triumphs than he has now. So he either doesn't use those abilities or he hasn't even proven to have them.

My earlier post mentioned a specific time he absorbed gamma energy from the Hulk. That's in continuity and that's canon. It's a victory for Magneto. You could argue (as you're doing) that it wouldn't happen again, but it's happened already and there's no reason why it wouldn't happen again. So he WOULD do this, because he HAS done it.

Also:

Disrupting electrical impulses: X-men 72, when he killed Odekirk by rendering him braindead.

Destroying nervous systems: Excalibur #9, upcoming issue, when he manifests his power and "destroys everything with a nervous system"

Taking over electrical impulses: X-men 18, he re-programs Warren's parents minds using his own power.

As for why he doesn't have more triumphs, victories, etc....he's a VILLAIN. It's the villains job to lose. If most of the villains used their powers to its fullest, all the heroes would be dead and that would be the end of Marvel Comics.

This whole debate, just like the Juggernaut one is "He can", "He could". Without thinking "would?".

Based on the above very specific evidence, I'd say "most definitely would".

Again I will pose the question that everyone is avoiding. Disperse, or absorb, Hulk simply has too much power. Magneto does not have enough power, ability or strength to be able to do anything that will give him the win.

Except he's done it already. And he's affect energy on a planetary level. He doesn't HAVE to absorb the energy, he just has to dispurse it. it doesn't require an enormous feat. We're not talking about Rogue or Bishop or Crusher Creel absorbing Hulk and overloading, here. We're talking about Magneto removing Hulk's gamma energy and sending it anywhere he wants except at the Hulk. It requires no unusual feat of power that's beyond Magneto's capabilities. None at all.

As Hulk's base strength is much much greater now, the amount of gamma inside is obviously going to be greater. So "sapping" the energy is no longer as easy as it was.

Prove that it's greater. And once you prove that it's greater, it still doesn't matter. Magneto can spend as much time as he wants dispersing Hulk's gamma energy because he doesn't have to be anywhere on the battlefield to do it. And given that Mags isn't the only person to absorb Hulk's energy, turning him into Banner, I'd hardly say that Hulk's gamma source is infinite. It REPLENISHES, but he can be drained to the point where he transformed. I can start naming times when it's happened too, so it's no huge feat.

Magneto doesn't have enough power or control over enough power to defeat the Hulk. He can do many things TO the Hulk, none of which will stop him. None of which will constitute a win. Magneto IS in another class of power, but being in another class doesn't mean another level.

Well, you've challenged me to name specific displays of power, which I've done. Any of these powers would put Hulk down because it affects Hulk at a physiological level. I've also mentioned absorbing his power, which he's done before, and mentioned how Hulk has had his power drained and converted to Banner on several occasions by others. If you combine the two, I have no doubt in my mind that Magneto can do it again.

It all comes down to power, in the end. Not necessarily strength, power. Something Magneto doesn't have enough of to win this.

I've named specifics that shows Magneto has such power and the willingness to use it. You do the same.