Literature in Music?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Because lyrics don't actually matter to me really, I don't care if I can understand what the voice is saying or not. How it sounds is more what I'm interested in.

-AC

Buit that is also subjective. For example I have many friends who hate Morrissey's voice..I personally, as well as others quite like it though.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I think you mistake triviality for being more based around the individuals needs and desires rather than the bigger picture.

Well, I mean their lyrics are beautiful and poetic..but there is jsut a difference in meaning between

"The Times They are a changin" and "Wake up Little Susie"
or
"My Back Pages" and "Mrs. Robinson"

although to be fair Simon and Garfunkel do have some philosophical lyrics.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Buit that is also subjective. For example I have many friends who hate Morrissey's voice..I personally, as well as others quite like it though.

What are you talking about, you nutcase?

I said it from my point of view.

-AC

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, I mean their lyrics are beautiful and poetic..but there is jsut a difference in meaning between

"The Times They are a changin" and "Wake up Little Susie"
or
"My Back Pages" and "Mrs. Robinson"

although to be fair Simon and Garfunkel do have some philosophical lyrics.

Yup heres a few.

He was my brother, Richard Corey, The Boxer, Sound of Silence, I am a Rock etc, etc.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Buit that is also subjective. For example I have many friends who hate Morrissey's voice..I personally, as well as others quite like it though.

And lyrics like Girlfriend in a coma are still as fresh today as they will always be!

Some good taste Marius my friend.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What are you talking about, you nutcase?

I said it from my point of view.

-AC

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Yup heres a few.

He was my brother, Richard Corey, The Boxer, Sound of Silence, I am a Rock etc, etc.

And lyrics like Girlfriend in a coma are still as fresh today as they will always be!

Some good taste Marius my friend.

I personally like the lyrics of the Smiths very much although some are just right out insane.

Bob Dylan's lyrics are very overrated however, I must say.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Bob Dylan's lyrics are very overrated however, I must say.

Hmm they are not necessarily my point of view. But I wouldn't say they are overrated.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Hmm they are not necessarily my point of view. But I wouldn't say they are overrated.

'Bob Dylan is as great a writer as Shakespeare', as noted by one 'academic' critic.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
'Bob Dylan is as great a writer as Shakespeare', as noted by one 'academic' critic.

Well. I can't really judge that. This might be a little beyond though. They are pretty good nontheless. And that might just be someone a little to enthusiastic. I mean just cause ome fanatics say Dredg are on par with Radiohead doesn't make them really overrated, cause that's not the general view. The Beatles now are overrated cause the general public views them as the best band ever...which they are pretty much not.

If someone said to me "Dredg are on par with Radiohead" I'd say "You're overrating them."

I don't think an opinion has to be general for it to be overrating. It just means they're not GENERALLY overrated.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If someone said to me "Dredg are on par with Radiohead" I'd say "You're overrating them."

I don't think an opinion has to be general for it to be overrating. It just means they're not GENERALLY overrated.

-AC

And that'S what that critic is doing..but I don't think thegeneral idea aboot him has to be considered overrated.

And I thought we were talking aboot GENERALLY, since I believe almost everything is overrated by some people (I guess I could even go that far to say that Tool are overrated by some, I wouldn't say they are overrated though)

Originally posted by Bardock42
And that'S what that critic is doing..but I don't think thegeneral idea aboot him has to be considered overrated.

And I thought we were talking aboot GENERALLY, since I believe almost everything is overrated by some people (I guess I could even go that far to say that Tool are overrated by some, I wouldn't say they are overrated though)

Bands like that aren't known by the general public enough to be generally overrated though.

The Beatles are generally overrated because the general public overrate them.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Bands like that aren't known by the general public enough to be generally overrated though.

The Beatles are generally overrated because the general public overrate them.

-AC

My point exactly

My point exactly

We agree my friend.

[edit] Now thje only thing is that you think that Bob Dylan is generally overrated and I don't.

The point I made was in reply to you saying that a single person or a few people making the claim that Dredg are on par with Radiohead, isn't overrating them because it's not a general view.

That's not true, they can still be overrated.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The point I made was in reply to you saying that a single person or a few people making the claim that Dredg are on par with Radiohead, isn't overrating them because it's not a general view.

That's not true, they can still be overrated.

-AC

If someone says Dredg are as good as Radiohead this person is overrating dredg. But I wouldn't say that Dredg are (generally) overrated. Because when I think of overrated as we used it I think aboot a general opinion. So obviously the critic saying Bob Dylan is as good as Shakespeare is overrating Bob Dylan. But of all the people who know Bob Dylan I don't think his poetic skills (which are good to say the least) are overrated or overestimated.

Oh I see, yes. General overrating means general opinion, which a singular opinion of course, is not. I agree.

I like Bob Dylan but I generally just think he's become a name to drop, to be honest, like The Beatles or most recently, Coldplay. Overrating is kind of dangerous really, with regards to lyricism or musicality.

Lyrically I think Morrissey is astounding, but nowhere near as good as people would have you believe. Resultantly people listen to a guy going on about how otherworldly Morrissey's lyrics are then go read them and end up coming away with a feeling of "He's not that good" and sometimes "He's crap" out of spite. The same with Maynard's lyrics, really. I've seen people on these boards come back from reading them when they were not previously familiar with his lyrics, only to claim "Bah he's not all that." Sometimes it's out of spite purely because they don't have what it takes to understand why he's rated so highly, but he's not overrated.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Oh I see, yes. General overrating means general opinion, which a singular opinion of course, is not. I agree.

I like Bob Dylan but I generally just think he's become a name to drop, to be honest, like The Beatles or most recently, Coldplay. Overrating is kind of dangerous really, with regards to lyricism or musicality.

Lyrically I think Morrissey is astounding, but nowhere near as good as people would have you believe. Resultantly people listen to a guy going on about how otherworldly Morrissey's lyrics are then go read them and end up coming away with a feeling of "He's not that good" and sometimes "He's crap" out of spite. The same with Maynard's lyrics, really. I've seen people on these boards come back from reading them when they were not previously familiar with his lyrics, only to claim "Bah he's not all that." Sometimes it's out of spite purely because they don't have what it takes to understand why he's rated so highly, but he's not overrated.

-AC

I agree that there are a lot of...emotional factors that come in to play when talking aboot music.
And there are certainly names that are dropped to seem musically sophisticated, and Bob Dylan might be one of them.
that doesn't really make him overrated though just "rated without knowledge".

I see your point there too. If someone believes someone that overrates an artist they will certainly be dissappointed. And I totally agree that overrating is bad (I guess I am guilty of that in regard of The Smiths, then again it doesn't matter cause no one listens to what I say anyways). I feel like I missed some point, forgive me for that I am confused.

Anyways, I personally like Morrisseys lyrics a lot...but they are very different to most others I think so people will either like his style or not. I think it's almost a black and white issue in that case.

I think Morrissey's strong point is how evocative and descriptive he is, but people hear/read those and think "Oooh this man is too excellent." When infact, he's telling you blatantly what it is that he wants to convey. He's not being clever about it always, he's explaining it straight up.

That's what I think is an incredible aspect of Maynard's lyrics. He said himself that in every interpretation he's read, none of them are really on point, but that's ok because it's better to extract your own meaning. That's the point.

-AC

However, just as musical skill can be assessed objectively, so can literary merit. Bob Dylan's abilities don't match up to the general consensus of him, which is partially due to the ignorance in literary matters of many of those who rate him highly.

There is one lyricist who is as good as people think Bob Dylan is, and it's not Bob Dylan.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I think Morrissey's strong point is how evocative and descriptive he is, but people hear/read those and think "Oooh this man is too excellent." When infact, he's telling you blatantly what it is that he wants to convey. He's not being clever about it always, he's explaining it straight up.

That's what I think is an incredible aspect of Maynard's lyrics. He said himself that in every interpretation he's read, none of them are really on point, but that's ok because it's better to extract your own meaning. That's the point.

-AC

Let e show you what I mean:

Weird Lyrics:
Bigmouth Strikes Again
A Rush and A Push and the Land is ours
Some Girls are Bigger than Others
Panic
Asleep

Straightforward:
Girlfriend in a Coma
Ask
Money Changes Everything
Sweet and Tender Hooligan

By the way I added a Joke...see if you can catch it. (I am not that aware of his solo works so I can't say much aboot that, but You are right I was somehow only thinking of the well..at least to me Strange lyrics)

I agree that it is one aspect of good lyrics that they are open for interpretation. That might actually a thing that Bob Dylan doesn't have..althoguh I guess that was another time back then.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
However, just as musical skill can be assessed objectively, so can literary merit. Bob Dylan's abilities don't match up to the general consensus of him, which is partially due to the ignorance in literary matters of many of those who rate him highly.

There is one lyricist who is as good as people think Bob Dylan is, and it's not Bob Dylan.

Hmm, well I can't really say how the general consensus is on Bob Dylan ..I jsut know a few people that like him and think his lyrics are good. i guess what made him, as you say, overrated is that so many people did agree with the political message he had.

Who would that lyricist be you are refering to?