Literature in Music?

A hip hop MC can rhyme and thesaurus his way through a song all he wants. He won't be able to compete with those men for lyricism and ability. Those are just one song each, I could go on forever.

-AC

And for the record, I don't think you really chose the "cream of the crop" in hip hop. I mean obviously you love songs like parabola for the content, not the words used correct? Cause the words (like most rock songs ) are pretty simple and straight forward, cause like you said before they have no need to "show off." So if you're judging the rock lyrics on content, why would you choose rap lyrics that have little to no content value? I mean the verses you chose were great and all when it comes to said literary devices, but they weren't really ABOUT anything. I could think of plenty of hip hop songs that have strong content the same way Tool songs do.. maybe not in the same "philosophical" way, but that's what leads us back to "different strokes for different folks."

Well you show what you believe to be the cream of the crop in terms of hip hop lyricism, content wise. A few, infact. I'll then post a couple Tool songs and we can analyse what lyrics are superior in terms of literature, meaning and such.

I think it's quite futile trying to find a hip hop lyric that will be anything worthy of thinking to compare to Tool, but by all means I'm up for being surprised.

-AC

Learn to swim. Learn to swim.

Well honestly even if we "analyse" the lyrics all day long, you're never going to be able to "prove" that the Tool lyrics are better so this whole thing is pretty futile.

But here are some examples of what I consider the cream of the crop hip hop lyrics content wise..

Common - Book of Life

I got so much trouble on my mind
So I take time
Out my day
To pray and I say
Now I lay me down to sleep
Hopin’ that I keep
My soul
Peep, I’m gettin’ old
And it’s a cold cold world
And I ain’t even got a bomber
Livin’ with my momma
It’s the same routine
Keep my room clean
I’m lookin’ to do some new things but ain’t shit to do
I’m twenty-two - catch
In the prime of my life
I have no time for a wife
I funnel through the tunnel
Disgruntled, tryin’ to find me some light
In the rim of darkness
Aiight you sing, I may not be the darkest
Brotha
But I was always told to act my age and not my color
Knowin’ that my color was that of the original
So now I sing the new negro spiritual
It goes get up stand up...etc.
It’s like how can you understand the pain
When you never had to stand under the rain
When it rains it pours, and it’s about to come down hard
Thank God I found you
As I walk down the road of existence
I get resistance
From all angles
I tangle
For cash
Hopin’ it’ll last
’til the end of the week
But all I eat is fast food
And you know how junk food goes right through ya
So I return to the arab
And on the way back
I stop and the liquor store
Grab me a six pack
Knowin’ that once I’m done with that I’ll be back
To get some more
Once I get started I don’t wanna stop
And I can’t turn around
Brew - I can’t turn it down
Ironically I turn it up
My liver I burn it up (fat line)
It’s my life I live it up
The cup I gotta give it up
One day
I’m cruisin’ down a one way street and I done passed fun day
Three blocks ago
It itself life is an obstacle
As I maneuver through the manure I try to be responsible
I want a job but I ain’t lookin - how come
I ain’t tryin’ to degrade myself bein’ nobody’s calvin
But I’m a couch bum what makes it bad I had incentive
But I disintegrated
To a state that’s stagnated
I procrastinated
I can’t recall a day without bein’ intoxicated
Or blowed
Ain’t dealin’ with a full deck and any day I could fold
What makes it bad, I wasn’t dealt that bad a hand
And I had a plan
But things didn’t go through
The way they were supposed to
Thank God I found you
It’s like a jungle sometimes it makes me wonder
How I keep from goin’ under, I ponder
And try to keep my concentration
In this idiotic nation
They say become I doctor, but I don’t have the patients/patience
Adjacent
To that situation
I want an occupation
That I’m into
’cause yet if I begin to
Live to my potential
I went to
School for fourteen years and my best teacher was experience
I reminisce and wish
I could go back in time to eighty-nine
When there was just sunshine
But now it’s like I’m gettin’ older to so much strain and stress
I don’t think I’ll ever be happpy until I rest
In peace
Of mind
And find
Who I am
But thank God I found you

Mos Def's verse from Black Star - Theives in the Night

Mos Def:
I'm sure that everbody out listenin' agree, that everything you
see
ain't really how it be
A lot of jokers out runnin' in place, chasin' the style
Be a lot goin' on beneath the empty smile
Most cats in my area be lovin' the hysteria
Synthesized surface conceals the interior
America, land of opportunity, mirages and camoflauges
More than usually
Speakin' loudly, sayin' nothing, you confusing me, you losing me
Your game is twisted, want me enlisted in your usery (?)

Foolishly, most men join the ranks cluelessly
but ( ------ ?) accept the deception, believe the perception
Reflection rarely seen across the surface of the looking glass
Walking the street, wonderin' who they be lookin' past
Lookin' gassed with them imported designer shades on
Stars shine bright, but the light rarely stays on
Same song, just remixed, different arrangement
Put you on a yacht but they won't call it a slaveship
Strangeness, you don't control this, you barely hold this
Screamin' brand new, when they just sanitized the old shit
Suppose it's, just another clever Jedi mind trick
That they been runnin' across stars through all the time with
I find it's distressin', there's never no in-between
We either niggas or kings
We either bitches or queens
The deadly ritual seems immersed, in the perverse
Full of short attention spans, short tempers, and short skirts
Long barrel automatics released in short bursts
The length of black life is treated with short worth
Get yours first, them other niggas secondary
That type of illin' that be fillin' up the cemetary
This life is temporary but the soul is eternal
Separate the real from the lie, let me learn you
Not strong, only aggressive, 'cuz the power ain't directed
That's why, we are subjected to the will of the oppressive
Not free, we only licensed
Not live (?), we just excitin'
'Cuz the captors own the masters to what we writin'
Not compassionate, only polite, we well trained
A sincerity rehearsed in stage it's just a game
Not good, but well behaved
'Cuz the camera survey, most of the things that we think, do, or
say
We chasin' after death just to call ourselves brave
But everyday, next man meet with the grave
I give a damn if any fam recall my legacy
I'm tryin' to live life in the sight of God's memory
Like that ya'll

Aesop Rock - No Regrets

Lucy was 7 and wore a head of blue barettes
City born, into this world with no knowledge and no regrets
Had a piece of yellow chalk with which she'd draw upon the
street
The many faces of the various locals that she would meet
There was joshua, age 10
Bully of the block
Who always took her milk money at the morning bus stop
There was Mrs. Crabtree, and her poodle
She always gave a wave and holler on her weekly trip down to the
bingo
parlor
And she drew
Men, women, kids, sunsets, clouds
And she drew
Skyscrapers, fruit stands, cities, towns
Always said hello to passers-by
They'd ask her why she passed her time
Attachin lines to concrete
But she would only smile
Now all the other children living in or near her building
Ran around like tyrants, soaking up the open fire hydrants
They would say
'Hey little Lucy, wanna come jump double dutch?'
Lucy would pause, look, grin and say
'I'm busy, thank you much'
Well, well, one year passed
And believe it or not
She covered every last inch of the entire sidewalk,
And she stopped-
'Lucy, after all this, you're just giving in today??'
She said:
'I'm not giving in, I'm finished,' and walked away

(Chorus: x2)
1 2 3
That's the speed of the seed
A B C
That's the speed of the need
You can dream a little dream
Or you can live a little dream
I'd rather live it
Cuz dreamers always chase
But never get it

Now Lucy was 37, and introverted somewhat
Basement apartment in the same building she grew up in
She traded in her blue barettes for long locks held up with a
clip
Traded in her yellow chalk for charcoal sticks
And she drew
Little bobby who would come to sweep the porch
And she drew
The mailman, delivered everyday at 4
Lucy had very little contact with the folks outside her cubicle
day
But she found it suitable, and she liked it that way
She had a man now: Rico, similar, hermit

They would only see each other once or twice a week on purpose
They appreciated space and Rico was an artist too
So they'd connect on saturdays to share the pictures that they
drew
(Look!)
Now every month or so, she'd get a knock upon the front door
Just one of the neighbors,
Actin nice, although she was a strange girl, really
Say, 'Lucy, wanna join me for some lunch??'
Lucy would smile and say 'I'm busy, thank you much'
And they would make a weird face the second the door shut
And run and tell their friends how truly crazy Lucy was
And lucy knew what people thought but didn't care
Cuz while they spread their rumors through the street
She'd paint another masterpiece

(Chorus x2)

Lucy was 87, upon her death bed
At the senior home, where she had previously checked in
Traded in the locks and clips for a head rest
Traded in the charcoal sticks for arthritis, it had to happen
And she drew no more, just sat and watched the dawn
Had a television in the room that she'd never turned on
Lucy pinned up a life worth's of pictures on the wall
And sat and smiled, looked each one over, just to laugh at it
all
No Rico, he had passed, 'bout 5 years back
So the visiting hours pulled in a big flock o' nothin
She'd never spoken once throughout the spanning of her life
Until the day she leaned forward, grinned and pulled the nurse
aside
And she said:
'Look, I've never had a dream in my life
Because a dream is what you wanna do, but still haven't pursued
I knew what I wanted and did it till it was done
So i've been the dream that I wanted to be since day one!'
Well!
The nurse jumped back,
She'd never heard Lucy even talk,
'Specially words like that
She walked over to the door, and pulled it closed behind
Then Lucy blew a kiss to each one of her pictures
And she died.

Those songs are excellent. I'm a big fan of Common, Mos Def and Aesop Rock.

Schism by Tool.

I know the pieces fit cuz I watched them fall away
mildewed and smoldering, fundamental differing,
pure intention juxtaposed will set two lovers souls in motion
disintegrating as it goes testing our communication
the light that fueled our fire then has burned a hole between us so
we cannot see to reach an end crippling our communication.

I know the pieces fit cuz I watched them tumble down
no fault, none to blame it doesn't mean I don't desire to
point the finger, blame the other, watch the temple topple over.
To bring the pieces back together, rediscover communication.

The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance.

There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away.
Mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting
I've done the the math enough to know the dangers of a second guessing
Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication

cold silence has a tendency to atrophy any sense of compassion

between supposed lovers
between supposed brothers.

And I know the pieces fit.

Third Eye by Tool.

Dreaming of that face again. It's bright and blue and shimmering. Grinning wide and comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes. On my back and tumbling down that hole and back again rising upand wiping the webs and the dew from my withered eye. In Out In Out In Out A child's rhyme stuck in my head. It said that life is but a dream. I've spent so many years in question to find I've known this all along. "So good to see you. I've missed you so much. So glad it's over. I've missed you so much. Came out to watch you play. Why are you running?" Shrouding all the ground around me. Is this holy crow above me. Black as holes within a memory and blue as our new second sun. I stick my hand into his shadow to pull the pieces from the sand. Which I attempt to reassemble to see just who I might have been. I do not recognize the vessel, but the eyes seem so familiar. Like phosphorescent desert buttons singing one familiar song... "So good to see you. I've missed you so much. So glad it's over. I've missed you so much. Came out to watch you play. Why are you running away?" Prying open my third eye. So good to see you once again. I thought that you were hiding. And you thought that I had run away. Chasing the tail of dogma. I opened my eye and there we were. So good to see you once again I thought that you were hiding from me. And you thought that I had run away. Chasing a trail of smoke and reason. Prying open my third eye.

Eulogy by Tool.

He had alot to say. He had alot of nothing to say. We'll miss him. So long. We wish you well. You told us how you weren't afraid to die. Well then, so long. Don't cry. Or feel too down. Not all martyrs see divinity. But at least you tried. Standing above the crowd he had a voice that was strong and loud. We'll miss him. Ranting and pointing his finger at everything but his heart. We'll miss him. No way to recall what it was that you had said to me, Like I care at all. So loud. You sure could yell. You took a stand on every little thing and so loud. Standing above the crowd, he had a voice so strong and loud and I swallowed his façade cuz I'm so eager to identify with someone above the ground, someone who seemed to feel the same, someone prepared to lead the way, with someone who would die for me. Will you? Will you now? Would you die for me? Don't you ****in' lie. Don't you step out of line. Don't you ****in lie. You've claimed all this time that you would die for me. Why then are you so surprised to hear your own eulogy? You had alot to say. You had alot of nothing to say. Come down. Get off your ****in cross. We need the ****in space to nail the next fool martyr. To ascend you must die. You must be crucified for your sins and your lies. Goodbye...

Personally I find it outlandish to insist any MC could equal or better those.

-AC

Here's one of my favorite Pulp songs called I Spy.

I Spy Lyrics
by Pulp

I spy a boy, I spy a girl.
I spy the worst place in the world, in the whole world.
Oh you didn't do bad, you made it out, I'm still stuck here oh but I'll get out.
Oh yeah I'll get out.
Can't you see a walks among you seeing through your pretty lives.
Do you think I do these things for real?
I do these things just so I survive. And you know I will survive.
It may look to the untrained eye
I'm sitting on my arse all day
And I'm biding my time until I take you all on my Lords and Ladies
I will prevail, I cannot fail.
Cause I spy.
Oh I've got your numbers taken notes and all the ways your minds work out.
I've studied and your mind's just the same as mine except that you're just clever swines
You never let masks slip, you never admit to it, you're never hurried.
Oh no no no.
And every night I hold my plan how I'll get my satisfaction
How I will blow your paradise away away away ooh.
Cause I spy.
It's just like in the old days - I used to compose my own critical notices in my head.
The crowd gasps at Cocker's masterful control of the bicycle
Skilfully avoiding the dog turd next to the corner shop.
Imagining a blue plaque above the place I first ever felt a girl's breasts,
the whole 'nana.
You've got to wait for the best.
You see you should take me seriously. Very seriously indeed.
Cause I've been sleeping with your wife for the past sixteen weeks
Smoking your cigarettes, drinking your brandy,
messing up the bed you chose together.
And in all that time I just wanted you to come home unexpectedly one afternoon
And catch us at it in the front room.
You see I spy for a living and I specialise in revenge
On taking the things I know will cause you pain.
I can't help it, I was dragged up.
My favourite park's a car park, grass is something you smoke,
birds is something you shag.
Take your year in Provence and shove it right up your arse.
Your Ladbroke Grove looks turn me on, yeah.
With your frightened eyes and roach burns under your eyes and addresses
And thousands of tiny dryna-slides running a path,
running a path to the corner of your eyes.
And every night I hatch my plan, it's not a case of woman v man.
It's more a case of haves against haven'ts and I just
happen to have got what you need, just exactly what you need yeah.
La la la la la la la la la la, in the midnight hour.
La la la la la la la la la la, I will come to you, I will come to you
I will take you from this sickness, dinner parties and champagne
I'll hold your body and make it sing again. come on - sing again, let's sing again.
Oh yeah, cause I spy, yes, I spy, ssss.
I spy a boy and I spy a girl.
I spy the chance to change the world, to change your world.

Lyrics are sooo subjective. Now, AC, you and I have argued the merrits of Elton John, before. But, as I stated in that discussion, I think so highly of Elton and Bernies lyrics, because that is how if effects me....personally. And, lyrics effect people because of their interpretation of those lyrics. Now, I agree with you 100% that rap lyrics are terrible. However, I admit that those who find them...inspirational....deep...meaningful....are allowed to their opinion.

Take this song for example: I think it has some of the greatest lyrics ever put to music, but others might not think so....

GREY SEAL

Why's it never light on my lawn
Why does it rain and never say good-day to the new-born
On the big screen they showed us a sun
But not as bright in life as the real one
It's never quite the same as the real one

And tell me grey seal
How does it feel
To be so wise
To see through eyes
That only see what's real
Tell me grey seal

I never learned why meteors were formed
I only farmed in schools that were so warn and torn
If anyone can cry then so can I
I read books and draw life from the eye
All my life is drawings from the eye

Your mission bells were wrought by ancient men
The roots were formed by twisted roots
Your roots were twisted then
I was re-born before all life could die
The Phoenix bird will leave this world to fly
If the Phoenix bird can fly then so can I

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Lyrics are sooo subjective. Now, AC, you and I have argued the merrits of Elton John, before. But, as I stated in that discussion, I think so highly of Elton and Bernies lyrics, because that is how if effects me....personally. And, lyrics effect people because of their interpretation of those lyrics. Now, I agree with you 100% that rap lyrics are terrible. However, I admit that those who find them...inspirational....deep...meaningful....are allowed to their opinion.

Take this song for example: I think it has some of the greatest lyrics ever put to music, but others might not think so....

GREY SEAL

Why's it never light on my lawn
Why does it rain and never say good-day to the new-born
On the big screen they showed us a sun
But not as bright in life as the real one
It's never quite the same as the real one

And tell me grey seal
How does it feel
To be so wise
To see through eyes
That only see what's real
Tell me grey seal

I never learned why meteors were formed
I only farmed in schools that were so warn and torn
If anyone can cry then so can I
I read books and draw life from the eye
All my life is drawings from the eye

Your mission bells were wrought by ancient men
The roots were formed by twisted roots
Your roots were twisted then
I was re-born before all life could die
The Phoenix bird will leave this world to fly
If the Phoenix bird can fly then so can I

A) Never did I say hip hop lyrics are terrible.

B) Lyrics are only subjective in terms of what we prefer. Like music. I can't make you hear how great I think a band are, vice versa. There ARE areas where it's probably. It was to my understanding that we were discussing who uses the balance of technical ability with lyrics and actual intelligent/meaningful subject matter. In which case, I don't think Maynard can be topped by any hip hop lyricist. Or any of rock's best.

That was my only point.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Personally I find it outlandish to insist any MC could equal or better those.

-AC

I believe it to be one of those issues that can't factually be proven (where preference is concerned) but is more or less true.

I cannot make you admit that Maynard is better than any hip hop lyricist, but I think it's about as borderline to being a fact as you can get. No hip hop lyricist has ever or will ever write something of the quality that I just showed you.

-AC

That's not the same as claiming it's a fact.. that's basically just an opinion you believe very strongly..

I know, what's your point?

When I say provable I meant in technique only. Not preference. Of course I can't prove preference.

Doesn't disprove that what I said it's more likely to be true than it is false.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Those songs are excellent. I'm a big fan of Common, Mos Def and Aesop Rock.

Personally I find it outlandish to insist any MC could equal or better those.

-AC

Forgot what is (in my opinion) the best Tool song....

Tool -- The Grudge

Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity.
Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
Desperate to control all and everything.
Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.

Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Justify denials and grip 'em to the lonesome end.
Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatum prison cell.

Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again.

Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Justify denials and grip 'em to the lonesome end.
Saturn ascends, comes round again.
Saturn ascends, the one, the ten. Ignorant to the damage done.

Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity.
Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
Desperate to control all and everything.
Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.

Wear the grudge like a crown. Desperate to control.
Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper.

Defining, confining, controlling, and we're sinking deeper.

Saturn comes back around to show you everything
Let's you choose what you will not see and then
Drags you down like a stone or lifts you up again
Spits you out like a child, light and innocent.

Saturn comes back around. Lifts you up like a child or
Drags you down like a stone
To consume you till you choose to let this go.

Give away the stone.
Let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and fated anchor.
Give away the stone.
Let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into gold.
Let go.

Anyway, I do think that Maynard is probably the best lyricist, by far. Honestly, I listen to a lot of different music, some has excellent lyrics, some has crap...but I really haven't heard anything yet that approaches the lyrics that he writes.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I know, what's your point?

When I say provable I meant in technique only. Not preference. Of course I can't prove preference.

And really when it comes to "technique" I'd say the best rappers outdo the best rock lyricists, although you just consider it "showing off" rap lyricism revolves around literary devices and complicated rhymes..

Doesn't disprove that what I said it's more likely to be true than it is false.

-AC

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
You haven't proven either..

And really when it comes to "technique" I'd say the best rappers outdo the best rock lyricists, although you just consider it "showing off" rap lyricism revolves around literary devices and complicated rhymes..

As I said, Canibus uses all the techniques and complex devices under the sun. It doesn't change the fact that he's just leaning on the thesaurus. It's not natural use, it's just trying hard. Something Maynard could do, something Rivers Cuomo could do. They don't, they write naturally and they're still producing transcendtal lyrics that surpass that of hip hop MCs. If you PREFER the hip hop MCs, fine. You can't deny that what Maynard writes is beyond hip hop MCs, you can't sanely deny that.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I'm the one arguing that this whole thing is subjective and can't be proven or disproven. How does it make sense for me to argue that it's subjective while trying to disprove your preference on lyricism? That makes no sense.

You missed my point. Preference or not, my claim of Maynard being better than any lyricist in hip hop is more likely to be true than not true. The lyrics you posted in terms of subject matter and topic, literacy, fall way short of anything I just posted. If you prefer them, fine.

Originally posted by Lana
Forgot what is (in my opinion) the best Tool song....

I don't think there is a best Tool song really. I think there are ones better than others but once you get to a certain level it's impossible to call.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't think there is a best Tool song really. I think there are ones better than others but once you get to a certain level it's impossible to call.

-AC

True....but you know that that particular song means more for me than any other song.

Of course, I remember sending you the lyrics in conjunction with that 🙂.

I was just saying.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
As I said, Canibus uses all the techniques and complex devices under the sun. It doesn't change the fact that he's just leaning on the thesaurus. It's not natural use, it's just trying hard. Something Maynard could do, something Rivers Cuomo could do. They don't, they write naturally and they're still producing transcendtal lyrics that surpass that of hip hop MCs. If you PREFER the hip hop MCs, fine. You can't deny that what Maynard writes is beyond hip hop MCs, you can't sanely deny that.

You missed my point. Preference or not, my claim of Maynard being better than any lyricist in hip hop is more likely to be true than not true. The lyrics you posted in terms of subject matter and topic, literacy, fall way short of anything I just posted. If you prefer them, fine.

Anyway... I gotta go to work. It's been nice. Peace.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A) Never did I say hip hop lyrics are terrible.

B) Lyrics are only subjective in terms of what we prefer.
-AC

A) Okay, I'm the one that thinks that rap lyrics are terrible

B) Duh

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I'm not really familiar with Canibus so I'm not going to argue him personally.. but technical rappers like Nas and GZA don't rely on a thesaurus at all. In fact I don't get where you think a thesaurus would help one with developing complex rhyme schemes and punchlines or the storytelling abilities often displayed in hip hop lyricism. That's what I consider technique, bending and manipulating words to sound good when put together beyond just the basic "meaning" of what they are saying.. without even understanding the message of the song I can say that Nas's lyrics SOUND good cause the words go great together, I can't say that about Maynard cause the appreciation I get from his lyrics are from the content alone, not from the words used. Get me?

I love Illmatic but I lost respect for Nas when he became hypocrite of the century. The man contradicts himself more than anyone. GZA is one of my favourite MCs ever, but nothing he has produced is on intelligence par with what Maynard comes up with lyrically. Both in literacy or subject.

I do get you there, that's fine. It doesn't mean that Maynard isn't using words that are equally impressive, just doesn't stand out as much.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
"More likely to be true than false?" It doesn't work like that. If it's a matter of fact it's either true or false.. not just leaning more to one side than the other. This happens to be a matter of opinion. Opinions can't be "more" or "less" true no matter how strongly you believe in them.

Well opinion can be wrong and some opinions are more valid than others.

I'm not denying it's opinion, you can sit there and deny it all day long due to preference. You're obviously not aware that the point I'm making is that Maynard's lyrics (see the ones I posted) are beyond any MC's ability.

-AC