? half a dozen earthly villains who wouldnt even bother attacking the F4 cuz they'd get their asses thrown in the negative zone and cancelled out of reality.
Yes the F4 have fought "The Trapster"
But they've also fought the dreaming Celestial on multiple occasions
Galactus on multiple occasions
Ego
Annihilus
The Destroyer
Terrax
Abraxis
Hyperstorm
Occulus
Silver Surfer
The Inhumans
Aron the rogue Watcher
Dr Doom
Terminus
The list goes on
Where r u going with this..."well look who's fought the tougher villains" argument? SHADOWKING????
Thats assuming Shadowking sneaks up on them...a telepathic being...who could do the same to any number of X-Men without telepathy. However, I still think defeating a powerful telepath isnt nearly as dificult as beating a CELESTIAL.
And no...without prep, in a bloodlust situation the F4 rape all those characters...F4 in a bloodlust situation where Reed takes on the Dark Raider qualities and Sue acts as MAlice either of them could handle those guys on their own.
Magneto
Juggernaut (Classic)
Apocalypse
Polaris (when she was an enemy)
Selene
Scarlet Witch
Shadow King
^ These characters? Really?
With Magneto and Polaris again it's a matter of whose power's work faster. Polaris knocksout a wedding-full of people instantaneously. Magneto can do the same only better and faster.
Shadow King would either take control of them or pull their minds onto the Astral plane, his domain. He can't be killed in the physical realm.
None of their physical powers short of a nova blast would kill Apocalyse. Unless he's written pathetic as usual.
Very few people beat current Scarlet Witch.
Classic Juggernaut. Nuff said. They have no magic they have no telepathy.
Only IW actually stands a chance to do anything to Selene.
If I put a combo of those characters together would you still side with the FF?
Tell me Wynndar do the FF rape:
Fury
Cassandra Nova
Exodus
Proteus
Without prep.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Magneto
Juggernaut (Classic)
Apocalypse
Polaris (when she was an enemy)
Selene
Scarlet Witch
Shadow King
^ These characters? Really?
With Magneto and Polaris again it's a matter of whose power's work faster. Polaris knocksout a wedding-full of people instantaneously. Magneto can do the same only better and faster.
Shadow King would either take control of them or pull their minds onto the Astral plane, his domain. He can't be killed in the physical realm.
None of their physical powers short of a nova blast would kill Apocalyse. Unless he's written pathetic as usual.
Very few people beat current Scarlet Witch.
Classic Juggernaut. Nuff said. They have no magic they have no telepathy.
Only IW actually stands a chance to do anything to Selene.If I put a combo of those characters together would you still side with the FF?
Tell me Wynndar do the FF rape:
Fury
Cassandra Nova
Exodus
ProteusWithout prep.
Ah, yes. I forgot about some of those characters.
Don't forget Legion.
Technically Onslaught although pan-comic, started as an X-Men villain, he's composed of Xavier and Magneto and he first appeared in X-Men. But hey he's just a lowly Earth villain - who nearly killed all the heroes in the MU.
I'm still trying to figure out what exactly the FF plan to do to Classic Juggs. I should make a thread.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Technically Onslaught although pan-comic, started as an X-Men villain, he's composed of Xavier and Magneto and he first appeared in X-Men. But hey he's just a lowly Earth villain - who nearly killed all the heroes in the MU.I'm still trying to figure out what exactly the FF plan to do to Classic Juggs. I should make a thread.
You're exactly right. Onslaught was indeed an X-men villian. One that the FF would have to bow down to since they have no chance of defeating him.
And you should make a thread of that!
Classic Juggernaut vs. Fantastic Four.
Go hit up my "Fantastic Four vs. Magneto" thread again. It needs so more replies, 😄 .
There was an F4 Jugs thread last yea i think.
Your argument against the F4 still isnt working. The F4 would be at a disadvantage fighting telepathic villains or villains who are vulnerable to telepathy...but still just as capable as the X-Men.
Why bring up the argument of Juggernaut's, Apoc's, Onslaught's raw power?
Before fighting Onslaught, the F4 had just came home from beating Hyperstorm...they couldnt take Onslaught seriously...Hyperstorm was more powerful than all these X-Villains combined.
Actually it's your argument that the FF win this and that "cos look at this list of villains I compiled." Well the thing is they would lose in a lot of non-prep fights to these X-Men villains and a lot of the villains in the lists you compiled. Trying to belittle other characters doesn't change that. But hey if it floats your boat.
Originally posted by Wynndar
Colossus lost to Gladiator who was scaled down in comparison to his fight against the F4...Byrne had him survive a solar system destroying explosion without a scratch, then had him pick up the Baxter building. Against Colossus they traded some punches but it was clear Gladiator wasnt making the kind of showing he was against the F4...and Colossus didnt make the guy flinch.
Your only evidence that Gladiator was more powerful against the FF than against Colossus is your underestimation of Colossus. "Oh, well, he struggled against Colossus but manhandled the entire Fantastic Four. Obviously he was less powerful when he fought Colossus". But there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that his powers were any different. It's the same Gladiator who, a couple of issues before, took out an entire team of X-men before getting stopped by the Phoenix Force. Canon is canon and canon dictates that he beat Thing MUCH more easily than Colossus, who didn't go down against Gladiator until an entire city came down on their heads. Even you don't dispute this.
Gladiator went all out against the Thing knocked him out eventually...and minutes later Thing got up and punched the bus Gladiator buried him with into the sky.
All out? Eventually? I read the issue....you're kidding me. He took down Thing in a few panels, no going all out was necessary. Compare his "battle" with the Thing to his battle with Colossus and tell me which one was a better example of Gladiator going "all out".
Just for reference, Colossus also did better against Black Bolt than Thing did.
Then he manhandled a Skrull imitating Colossus with superior powers.
Cyclops owned a Skrull imitating Thor with "superior" powers. Those Skrulls are all hype.
In the end the F4 beat the Skrulls and Gladiator. We could argue all day about Colossus and Thing, but in the end Thing has way more accomplishments and is clearly demonstrated as being more powerful.
Way more accomplishments, yes. I'll actually grant you that. But he's an older character who has been a regular in a comic its entire run over a half century. Colossus spent a lot of time being non-existent, dead, or on the sidelines among a cast of dozens. So is Thing's resume better? Of course. You have to compare similar situations, like their respective fights against other characters. In each of those, Colossus has consistently fared better than Ben under similar circumstances. That's the only evidence that counts in my book.
I guess u dont read comic books much lately if u say Iceman is HOM in Black Panther #8 or X-Men #175...cuz Im pretty sure its 616...and yes he was taken down by Lasers and sleeping gas...he's not immortal or invulnerable...or sh!t He froze some mutant crocadiles and X-Fans treat him like a Sky-Father!
The issue where he was taken out by lasers, wasn't that the issue where he was working for Apocalypse?
There are scans all over this board of crazy Iceman feats....they go far beyond mutant crocodiles.
Besides, if you want to play the "taken out by lasers" game, Human Torch got extinguished by a fire hydrant (multiple times), a Sprinkler system, Hydroman, Storm's winds and some foam.
And Thing seems to make a habit out of getting owned by Wolverine.
Of course we know the outcome of this fight...The F4 r the Earth's first defense from cosmic threats. The X-Men mostly stick to fighting evil mutants. Marvel's most accomplished and experienced team against one who's characters and roster are practically disposable, yea it would be interesting to read but the F4 would come out on top.
The X-men fight evil mutants not because of their power level but because it's their stated mission. The FF are cosmic explorers, as such they run into cosmic threats. And whenever the X-men do find themselves in cosmic situations (Dark Phoenix, M'Kraan Crystal, Brood, Celestials in Judgement War), they ALWAYS come out on top. They just have other goals.
I just don't see the FF having the raw power to compete with most X-men.
Originally posted by demigawd
Your only evidence that Gladiator was more powerful against the FF than against Colossus is your underestimation of Colossus. "Oh, well, he struggled against Colossus but manhandled the entire Fantastic Four. Obviously he was less powerful when he fought Colossus". But there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that his powers were any different. It's the same Gladiator who, a couple of issues before, took out an entire team of X-men before getting stopped by the Phoenix Force. Canon is canon and canon dictates that he beat Thing MUCH more easily than Colossus, who didn't go down against Gladiator until an entire city came down on their heads. Even you don't dispute this.
Didnt u say u read the comic book? yes some rubble fell on top of Gladiator and Colossus...a battered Gladiator emerged. But in F4 Gladiator shrugged off an explosion that could "destroy half our star system" according to Richards...and it didnt even tear his mufnckin uniform! So r u saying these were comparable feats? Surviving that rubble compared to surviving a reaction that creates stars?
Originally posted by demigawd
All out? Eventually? I read the issue....you're kidding me. He took down Thing in a few panels, no going all out was necessary. Compare his "battle" with the Thing to his battle with Colossus and tell me which one was a better example of Gladiator going "all out".
No Im not kidding. Gladiator and Colossus traded blows. Although initially Colossus' attacks didnt make Gladiator blink. Gladiator hit the Thing and he tore through approximately forty cars in a straight vector. Gladiator was moving so fast that he was a blur. (was he a blur against Colossus?)Thing was also able to explicitely mumble he hadnt been hit that hard...ever. This is after fighting Hulk, the Destroyer, BlackBolt, Silver Surfer, Terrax, etc. Thing was back up moments later and punched the same bus Gladiator covered him with, far into the air...then went back into the fight.
Originally posted by demigawd
Just for reference, Colossus also did better against Black Bolt than Thing did.
Just for reference...this is nonsense...Thing has fought Blackbolt at least 3 times and has beaten him...I wasnt even aware Colossus fought him in 616.
Originally posted by demigawd
Way more accomplishments, yes. I'll actually grant you that. But he's an older character who has been a regular in a comic its entire run over a half century. Colossus spent a lot of time being non-existent, dead, or on the sidelines among a cast of dozens. So is Thing's resume better? Of course. You have to compare similar situations, like their respective fights against other characters. In each of those, Colossus has consistently fared better than Ben under similar circumstances. That's the only evidence that counts in my book.
Colossus has done better than Thing against Juggernaut? Well Thing is yet to fight Juggernaut in a straight up fight...he fought Juggernaut along with 98 other villains and still stopped Juggernaut from reaching his goal, touching the Beyonder-FACT.
Originally posted by demigawd
The issue where he was taken out by lasers, wasn't that the issue where he was working for Apocalypse?There are scans all over this board of crazy Iceman feats....they go far beyond mutant crocodiles.
Besides, if you want to play the "taken out by lasers" game, Human Torch got extinguished by a fire hydrant (multiple times), a Sprinkler system, Hydroman, Storm's winds and some foam.
And Thing seems to make a habit out of getting owned by Wolverine.
No...BP #8 is in 616...I suggest u get it...and the latest issue of X-Men, its a crossover. Ur thinking of BP#7 when he decapitates Sabretooth. Human Torch being snuffed out is irrelavent. Im not going to argue his lowest flame can be snuffed out...he doesnt walk around at Nova temp. Examples of Torch's power have been posted on his vs Storm page...check it out. Iceman's getting beat by lasers and gas is an example of him not being invulnerable or immortal as X-fanboys persist. Wolverine has cheap shotted Thing so what? One backhand from Thing and Wolvie's back in Canada.
Originally posted by demigawd
The X-men fight evil mutants not because of their power level but because it's their stated mission. The FF are cosmic explorers, as such they run into cosmic threats. And whenever the X-men do find themselves in cosmic situations (Dark Phoenix, M'Kraan Crystal, Brood, Celestials in Judgement War), they ALWAYS come out on top. They just have other goals.
Originally posted by demigawd
I just don't see the FF having the raw power to compete with most X-men.
We can both have our opinion.
Originally posted by Wynndar
Didnt u say u read the comic book? yes some rubble fell on top of Gladiator and Colossus...a battered Gladiator emerged. But in F4 Gladiator shrugged off an explosion that could "destroy half our star system" according to Richards...and it didnt even tear his mufnckin uniform! So r u saying these were comparable feats? Surviving that rubble compared to surviving a reaction that creates stars?
I don't get it...he survived both. You can only argue a change in power level if he DIDN'T survive the rubble and DID survive the reaction that creates stars. Saying he survived both doesn't mean anything. Gladiator was battered because he was battling Colossus, not because of a structure collapsing. The collapsing structure is what did Colossus in. The fact that Gladiator emerged wounded against Colossus is a credit to Colossus.
No Im not kidding. Gladiator and Colossus traded blows. Although initially Colossus' attacks didnt make Gladiator blink. Gladiator hit the Thing and he tore through approximately forty cars in a straight vector. Gladiator was moving so fast that he was a blur. (was he a blur against Colossus?)
The fight was shown differently in the Phoenix Saga. They didn't show the entire fight panel for panel the way it was shown in FF (largely because Thing was put down in only a few panels). Instead, it showed some images of Colossus' battle with Gladiator while describing it as being a very lengthy and very brutal epic that created an incredible amount of destruction. Again, a BIG difference in the way the two fights were portrayed that definitely showed Colossus in a better light.
Thing was also able to explicitely mumble he hadnt been hit that hard...ever. This is after fighting Hulk, the Destroyer, BlackBolt, Silver Surfer, Terrax, etc. Thing was back up moments later and punched the same bus Gladiator covered him with, far into the air...then went back into the fight.
Because, luckily, the FF just had Gladiator do deal with (and lose to), as opposed to the X-men, who had to fight not just Gladiator, but the entire Imperial Guard.
And I'm pretty sure Colossus hadn't been hit that hard....ever, either. Not sure what point you're trying to make with that.
Just for reference...this is nonsense...Thing has fought Blackbolt at least 3 times and has beaten him...I wasnt even aware Colossus fought him in 616.
Thing was completely owned by Black Bolt. Couldn't land a hit on him, then got the Master Blow and was totally out. Some time before Colossus died, the X-men traveled to the Moon and encountered the Inhumans, where Black Bolt was unable to put down Colossus.
I just recently read the other FF threads, and Juggernaut is another good example of Colossus outperforming Thing. It's been pretty consistent. Current Colossus is 15 tons stronger than Original Colossus, too.
Colossus has done better than Thing against Juggernaut? Well Thing is yet to fight Juggernaut in a straight up fight...he fought Juggernaut along with 98 other villains and still stopped Juggernaut from reaching his goal, touching the Beyonder-FACT.
I didn't say anything about Juggernaut until just now, because I didn't read the fight. But according to everybody else, Juggernaut took him out in three punches. Juggernaut was impressed with Colossus when they fought because Colossus did so well...and Colossus was drunk.
No...BP #8 is in 616...I suggest u get it...and the latest issue of X-Men, its a crossover. Ur thinking of BP#7 when he decapitates Sabretooth.
Oh, are you talking about the issue written by the guy who thinks Radioactive Man is Russian instead of Chinese and Black Knight is a villain instead of a hero? I don't use the PIS label very often, but when a writer makes as many continuity mistakes as Hudlin does, it applies. Besides, it's outweighed by tons of evidence to the contrary.
Human Torch being snuffed out is irrelavent. Im not going to argue his lowest flame can be snuffed out...he doesnt walk around at Nova temp.
Exactly, because it burns him out faster and it harder to control. That's why. Wolverine was all over Torch and Torch was burning the flesh off his bones, but Wolverine still used a fire extingusher to put him out. So Torch's flame would have to be pretty high intensity to avoid being extinguished. Higher than his normal combat intensity.
I'm just saying, if you're going to reference one time Iceman had a low showing, I can reference the multiple times Torch got embarassed.
Wolverine has cheap shotted Thing so what? One backhand from Thing and Wolvie's back in Canada.
And yet Wolverine has never gone to Canada by way of the Thing Express. You saying Wolverine cheapshotted the Thing every time now? And it wasn't a cheapshot. Thing charged up on Wolverine in the Millar issue, and Wolverine took him down. In one shot.
I read the thread with Storm and HT just now. It clearly shows Storm beating HT, too. HT's only option was use of lethal force, going a step beyond where Storm was willing to go (but not a step beyond where Storm was more than capable of going).
True...but the X-Men r not avidly involved in the cosmic world. M'Kraan and Phoenix r kinda the same example.
No. Dark Phoenix is a completely different storyline from the M'Kraan-empowered D'Ken. The X-men also did better against Japh than the FF did. The X-men beat him. The FF had to talk their way out. All this, and the X-men are not avidly involved in the cosmic world, as you said. It's not their mission. But when they are, they've had a spotless record. That should say something.