I think reasonable arguments can be made for either, but I'd have to lean towards Torch for that fight. Cyclops is, in the final analysis, a guy with a gun. The gun just so happens to be his eyes (and really powerful). Anyone Cyclops can beat, there's a reasonable chance The Punisher can beat as well.
ERRRRRRG !!!! one thing that makes me irrated is flawed logic. I am a fan of sports and its the best evidence. Some teams can defeat the other other elite teams with ease and lose really bad to some of the worst stink bomb teams ever the next match. so to use the A beats B and B beats C so A HAS to beat C logic goes out the window. Thats why wolvie is one of my fav characters ever written, one day he could beat galactus but the next day lose to the Yancy Street gang. Hey hapens in sports and in life.
i have been away from FF comics the last 4 so years and i read that Reed and Doom both have studied and have scarlet witch/Dr Strange level magic? I always loved FF comics but its true their strength is in prep, they always lost the first battle but came back and schooled who was fighting them. I think that would make an interesting crossover, FF4 vs x villians and Xmen vs FF4 villians. Xmen vs Doom would be cool.
Originally posted by demigawd
I think reasonable arguments can be made for either, but I'd have to lean towards Torch for that fight. Cyclops is, in the final analysis, a guy with a gun. The gun just so happens to be his eyes (and really powerful). Anyone Cyclops can beat, there's a reasonable chance The Punisher can beat as well.
Cyclop's powers r utterly useless against Torch...his strategic skills would be his only hope.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Are we still trying to assert that Invisible Woman or Human Torch can act faster than telepathy?And why in the hell would Reed have a weapon that would somehow hurt Shadowcat in a non-prep fight?
Shadowcat makes Emma Frost intangible. Emma Frost uses Human Torch, Thing and Reed Richards to kill Invisible Woman and then shuts off the remaining FF's minds.
It's Reed ****ing Richards.
The man spends his days making crap to do this kind of thing.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Everyone's powers are utterly useless on the FF according to you. A page ago you basically said that Onslaught is nothing to the FF.
Originally posted by Swanky-TunaCyclops beams are portrayed as pure heatless concussive force - in it's essence it's an "eye-punch". It's not an energy blast. You're saying Torch can absorb energies like heat, however although his durability to physical forces is higher than a normal human's he isn't the physically invulnerable.
In another thread he brought up that torch could absorb the energy from a guy with the same powers as cyclops, except it shot out of his hands, passively. It just makes him hotter.
err...I know his powers r strictly concussive and not heat. Same with Blastaar. I never implied it was heat energy...
Saying Reed is nothing without prep is like saying Cyclops cant strategize or Wolverine cant fight. Reed doesnt need prep...figuring out how to beat an enemy on the fly is what he does. i.e. Terminus.
Aside from that incident with Blastaar, when has Johnny exhibited the ability to absorb physical forces? You're granting him physical invulnerability...
No one said "Reed is nothing without prep." No one is taking away from the fact that Reed is the co-master of prep (the other being Doom). However this is a no prep fight. You're saying that without any tools, materials, energy source and little if any time Reed Richards is going to create a device specifically designed to hurt Shadowcat, all while fighting in battle.
He's been hit by other energy weilders causing the same effect. I used Blastaar because he shoots ruby colored beams of concussive energy. I thought it would be the best example. Why would i use the example of Klaw, Devos, Paibok, Diablo, etc. Their powers dont resemble Cyclops'. He also absorbed the energy of that negative portal...basically incalculable. Are u in denial of Cyclops losing this? Do I need 100 examples in favor of the torch? U dont need multiple examples of X-people doing anything.
Cyclops' powers would be good for something....he could shoot his burnt body parts and put the fire out...since his blast dont hurt him...they would already be burnt to sh!t...but at least he wouldnt be on fire anymore.
Actually, I do think that Cyclops can take Human Torch.
I know that HT can pretty much just fry him, but that's just not the way I'm seeing it. Especially when Emma basically mind-rapes the entire FF. HT will be confused as hell and incapacitated. Then it's one powerful optic blast from Cyke, and it's over for HT. You can't really deny this, since Cyke's blasts can punch holes in mountains.
And Colossus defintiely takes the Thing. As demigawd pointed out, Colossus has fared much better against many of the same opponents that Thing has faced. That, and he's just better all around.
Invisible Woman will be in comatose after Emma mind-rapes her. Wolvie can just go slash her then.
And Mr. Fantastic is taken out by Shadowcat. Hell, Emma doesn't even need to attack Reed first. Shadowcat can do this on her own.
Oh Metalmax...u and ur cold hard evidence have shut me out of this debate. 😆
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Key word: energy.
I asked for examples of an ability to absorb forces not energy attacks. Again: You're granting him physical invulnerability.Btw denial? The reason this thread continues is your denial that the FF are capable of losing. It's called a mindblast.
U consider Cyclops' attacks energy or force contingent of each argument. Ive heard people say its basically light so that they could use the argument that it travels at the speed of light. Regardless...HT has absorbed Blastaar's blasts which r described practically identical to Cyclops except that they r more powerful and they travel from his hands.
I know the F4 will win this...Ive already made enough of an argument...instead of blabbing bias ass opinions like "colossus is easily better than the Thing in every category"...This thread is still goign because we r debating....its as much my "fault" as yours, although I dont consider it a bad thing because its the purpose of this thread and i like talking about comics.
Me personally? I have never stated it's an energy attack. Quote me. The only time I can recall using light was to say it is force that acts like light in terms of it's refractory properties and possibly it's speed.
Force. Pure heatless force. Unless you're going to try and sell that HT is invulnerable to physical attack Cyclops can blast him.
I don't know how you've come to the conclusion that you've made the argument that the FF win. The villain name-dropping really isn't an argument.
Also could you clarify exactly what you meant earlier about FF vs Onslaught... where you said they wouldn't take him seriously?
Human Torch has absorbed concussive force as well. The first example I brought up was Blastaar. HT's body appears to metabolize or convert the force into heat energy. Blastaar's concussive force is even Red like Cyclops'. Its more powerful though as demonstrated by his bio and his feats.
But yo...Im bout to go hit up some parties around campus....good talking to u guys