Death Penalty

Originally posted by docb77
You're not understanding me here. I don't place the inordinate value on life that you seem to. I'm sure that the pedophile does value his life more than I would, but I would sincerely doubt that he valued the life of the child he chose to molest more than I. I would give my own life rather than cause a child harm. Not so for your hypothetical pedophile.

What I value is not life alone, but rather quality of life.

No, I meant the paedophile arguably values life more than you. He or she isn't necessarily out to kill anyone, nor do they want to. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's not as bad as killing a kid, because...well...it's not.

You can't sit there preaching the value of life when you'd put a paedophile to death, someone who hasn't killed anyone and probably never wanted to. You can't go on from murder, many people do grow up to live good lives after being abused.

Your theory is very stupid.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, I meant the paedophile arguably values life more than you. He or she isn't necessarily out to kill anyone, nor do they want to. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's not as bad as killing a kid, because...well...it's not.

You can't sit there preaching the value of life when you'd put a paedophile to death, someone who hasn't killed anyone and probably never wanted to. You can't go on from murder, many people do grow up to live good lives after being abused.

Your theory is very stupid.

-AC

You're still not getting what I'm trying to say. I'm not preaching the value of life. Just the opposite actually, I'm saying that Life is not as intrinsically valuable as some people make it out to be. I'm saying that some lives are worth more than other lives.

I'm sure that many people do live good lives after being abused, but that event will haunt them forever. They are scarred, they just learn to live with it.

Originally posted by docb77
You're still not getting what I'm trying to say. I'm not preaching the value of life. Just the opposite actually, I'm saying that Life is not as intrinsically valuable as some people make it out to be. I'm saying that some lives are worth more than other lives.

I'm sure that many people do live good lives after being abused, but that event will haunt them forever. They are scarred, they just learn to live with it.

Exactly.

Do you know anyone who has gone on to live after being murdered? There are ways of dealing with criminals without killing them with execution, especially those who haven't killed.

-AC

Well, then we get into the question of an afterlife, and it's a whole 'nother ball of wax. (where did that saying come from anyway)

Originally posted by docb77
You're still not getting what I'm trying to say. I'm not preaching the value of life. Just the opposite actually, I'm saying that Life is not as intrinsically valuable as some people make it out to be. I'm saying that some lives are worth more than other lives.

I'm sure that many people do live good lives after being abused, but that event will haunt them forever. They are scarred, they just learn to live with it.

Who are you to say one life is worth more than another?

Originally posted by docb77
What rapists and child molesters do is basically torture someone. This torture is both physical and psychological. I haven't researched domestic abuse enough to say whether there's a chance for the abuser to change or not. Child molestation on the other hand is known to have such a high recidivism rate that more and more states are trying to control where sexual predators can even go once their prison terms are up. Better for all of us if we just don't have to worry about them any more. Their lives ceased to be worth anything when the stole the innocence of that first child.

Rapists and Child Molestors do torture thier victims yes. Not all Peadophiles are child molestors. There is a difference. A child molestor makes unwanted sexual advances on a child. Molestation is sexual abuse due to lack of consent. A peadophile who is not a child molestor has sexual relations with a youth who WANTED the sexual relation.

To kill someone for being a peadophile is so typically religious 🙄 Can someone say "inquistion"?

What ever happened to "Thou shalt not kill"...you guys love to ignore rules that don't serve your purpose, yet emphasize on rules that are convienent for you.

👇 Bad Hypocrit ! Bad !

Originally posted by docb77
Rape is a little different, some rapists do only do it once. After the second time however the recidivism rate is more like that of pedophiles.

There is no difference. Rape and Child Molestation are the same thing. Child Molestation and Peadophilia are, however, different.

Originally posted by docb77
These people have stolen something which many people consider more important than life - innocence.

Wrong 👇

Rapists steal thier victim's freedom of CHOICE and thier sense of safety.

They don't steal thier "innocense"... a person who is raped is not guilty once they were raped, so no "innocense" is stolen...what a nice use of religious bias 🙄

There is no such thing as "sexual innocense", being a Virgin does not equal being "pure", this beleif is absurd and a non progressive, fantasy like way, dangerous way of thinking.

Originally posted by docb77
Think about why you are against the death penalty. What makes life so important anyway? My answer is that life is only as important as what a person does with it, or has the potential to do. Sexual predators lives have little value by that standard.

Nope....Everyone's life is of equal value. Your religiously and personally biased point of view is a dangerous one indeed, as you would most likely kill off a LARGE percentage of the population for your own purposes.

Can some again say "Inquisition" ?

Urizen,

2 things first,

1- I've never propounded punishing, let alone executing, someone for their thoughts or feelings. Only for their actions.

2- "Thou shalt not kill" is actually something of a mistranslation. It should actually be read "thou shalt not murder" And since there is a major difference between a state sanctioned execution and a murder, there is no hypocrisy involved in my position.

As far as your position on my use of the word innocence, you know darn well that that wasn't the kind of innocence I was referring to, but since you seem to want to find fault with anyone who shows any religious inclinations at all here's the definition:

in·no·cence
n.
1. The state, quality, or virtue of being innocent, as:
1. Freedom from sin, moral wrong, or guilt through lack of knowledge of evil.
2. Guiltlessness of a specific legal crime or offense.
3. Freedom from guile, cunning, or deceit; simplicity or artlessness.
4. Lack of worldliness or sophistication; naiveté.
5. Lack of knowledge or understanding; ignorance.
6. Freedom from harmfulness; inoffensiveness.
2. One that is innocent.

take a look at those bold definitions and tell me that a child's innocence isn't ripped away when they are molested or raped.

Here's an even better description of what I was referring to:

in·no·cent
adj.

1. Uncorrupted by evil, malice, or wrongdoing; sinless: an innocent child.
2.
1. Not guilty of a specific crime or offense; legally blameless: was innocent of all charges.
2. Within, allowed by, or sanctioned by the law; lawful.
3.
1. Not dangerous or harmful; innocuous: an innocent prank.
2. Candid; straightforward: a child's innocent stare.
4.
1. Not experienced or worldly; naive.
2. Betraying or suggesting no deception or guile; artless.
5.
1. Not exposed to or familiar with something specified; ignorant: American tourists wholly innocent of French.
2. Unaware: She remained innocent of the complications she had caused.
6. Lacking, deprived, or devoid of something: a novel innocent of literary merit.

Originally posted by docb77
Urizen,

2 things first,

1- I've never propounded punishing, let alone executing, someone for their thoughts or feelings. Only for their actions

You still encourage killing. And if you were incharge of the world, you'd most likely kill off the majority of us, since most of us had done things against the Bible.

Originally posted by docb77
2- "Thou shalt not kill" is actually something of a mistranslation. It should actually be read "thou shalt not murder" And since there is a major difference between a state sanctioned execution and a murder, there is no hypocrisy involved in my position.

Prove to me that it's a mistranslation. Don't make shit up just to validify your point.

Either way, you still prove my point. Your religion encourages killing as punishment, and that is utterly disgusting. 👇

Originally posted by docb77
As far as your position on my use of the word innocence, you know darn well that that wasn't the kind of innocence I was referring to, but since you seem to want to find fault with anyone who shows any religious inclinations at all here's the definition

in·no·cence
n.
1. The state, quality, or virtue of being innocent, as:
1. [b]Freedom from sin, moral wrong, or guilt through lack of knowledge of evil.
2. Guiltlessness of a specific legal crime or offense.
3. Freedom from guile, cunning, or deceit; simplicity or artlessness.
4. Lack of worldliness or sophistication; naiveté.
5. Lack of knowledge or understanding; ignorance.
6. Freedom from harmfulness; inoffensiveness.
2. One that is innocent.

take a look at those bold definitions and tell me that a child's innocence isn't ripped away when they are molested or raped. [/B]

None of those definitions validify your point. NOT ONE....

A child is NEVER guilty when he or she is raped. There is no moral wrong they acquire when they are raped. Thier freedom and sense of safety, not to mention physical well being, is what is violated...thier "innocense " is purely a religiously bias term, and does not factually exist.

Prove that the accepted translation should be "thou shalt not murder", well, I can point you to some sites that deal with that kind of stuff:

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/6command.htm

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/notkill.html

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/001102_ThouShaltNotMurder.html

As far as the innocence thing goes, you still aren't getting what I'm saying. I am NOT saying that the child is guilty of ANYTHING. What I am saying is that the carefree, and trusting state of being - in other words innocence - has been brutally stripped away.

No adjective "factually exists" so stop playing semantics and just try to understand what it is that I am trying to say.

I believe that anyone who kills another person should die a horrible death... not by lethal injection, or beheading, or firing squad... but but being by literally locking him/her in a room and throwing away the key.

However...

I believe this should only happen if it can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt that it is the right person... and in my opinion, any doubt is reasonable when it comes to someone's life... and there is always some doubt. Nothing can ever be a 100% certainty.

So, ultimately, I'm against it.

People like Tookie Willams deserve to die 😐

Thats why we have the death penalty

N'uff Said 😉

Originally posted by docb77
That first sentence didn't quite make sense. If it worked then we wouldn't do it?

I wrote "then it would not be used, would it?" Ehhh, English is not my first language, what did I do wrong? 🙂

Originally posted by docb77

As for the deterrence thing - 2 things:

1 - Deterence isn't the only reason for punishment. There are other reasons, but for me the main one is Justice. If you steal, you should have to pay the money back (plus a little for the trouble you caused). If you do something worse, a commensurate punishment should be attached. Let the punishment fit the crime and all that.

2 - There are reasons that the death penalty in the US might not be effective as a deterrent. One is that it is almost a joke. A person sentenced to death is almost as likely to die of old age as from an actual execution. If Executions were swift and public, I really think that criminals would think twice before acting.

1) Yes, we can agree that we do not jail and execute ONLY to have it work as a deterrent.
A question: If you think stealing is wrong, then why do you want something to be STOLEN from the thief? Is that not hypocritical? If stealing is WRONG then it is wrong, is it not?
What is it about the "eye for an eye" kind of justice that appeals to you?

2) I can understand what you mean, that people spend ages on the death row. Is this - btw - not punishment in itself? Waiting and not knowing if you live or die?
What is it, that makes you want executions to be public? Do you want other criminals to be put on public display as well??

Do you view the death penalty as the harshest kind of punishment?

Originally posted by docb77
Prove that the accepted translation should be "thou shalt not murder", well, I can point you to some sites that deal with that kind of stuff:

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/6command.htm

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/notkill.html

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/001102_ThouShaltNotMurder.html

As far as the innocence thing goes, you still aren't getting what I'm saying. I am [b]NOT saying that the child is guilty of ANYTHING. What I am saying is that the carefree, and trusting state of being - in other words innocence - has been brutally stripped away.

No adjective "factually exists" so stop playing semantics and just try to understand what it is that I am trying to say. [/B]

I appreciate your attempt at proof, but those are all Conservative based sites, therefore the Bias remains clear. I see no objectivity in any of those cases, they each try to justify killing under certain circumstances, and there is no proof as of yet that the translations were mistaken when the Bible was originally printed.

On top of that, if the Fifth commandment was mistaken, IMAGINE HOW MANY OTHER THINGS IN THE BIBLE ARE MISTAKEN 😱 !

You still have not addressed the point of the matter..your Faith encourages killing as punishment, and that is utterly disgusting. You would ban Abortion, yet allow Death Penalty. How typically Conservative of you 🙄

You are forgetting that your Faith encourages the killing of:

1) People of other Faiths
2) Homosexuals
3) Idol worshippers
4) Men who don't shave thier beards
5) Women who have sex before marriage
6) Men or Women who commit Adultery

Your God is a God of war, your Faith is faith of discrimination, your religion is one of contradictions and flaws, your outlook is one of close mindedness, your tradition is one that encourages killing. 👇

Again, Bad Conservative ! Bad ! 😆

As far as I know, killing is only acceptable in war and protection of lives. Jesus would not support the death pernalty or abortion as birth control.

Originally posted by badabing
As far as I know, killing is only acceptable in war and protection of lives. Jesus would not support the death pernalty or abortion as birth control.

Lord Urizen: go away. You know nothing. I can imagine you stating about how I ought to educate you since you apparently are unaware of your ignorance. This isn't the thread for it. Make a thread in the religion forum about God's views on stuff if you want an actual discussion or to see why many Christians believe what they believe (NUURH LOL BRAINWASHING AMIRITE?). You'll find that there's a reason that there is a vast gulf between Christian conservatives and liberal Christians (and it's not ebcause one group is stupid lolz).

Though, I must say, I love your posting style. Might I refer you to my evaluation thread?

Originally posted by The Omega
And it does not work as a deterrent, since IF it did – well, then it would not be used, would it?

Not really, just because it deters to some degree doesn't mean that no one would ever kill again.

When what's his face said that criminal punishment should be made public, isn't that a mockery of their life and how it was lived? Although they did something wrong, who are you to decide that their death, in a way the most important thing to some in their life, will be displayed to complete strangers. And furthermore, how does this effect the family members of the killer. They are effected, imo more than the victims family because for the rest of their lives people look at them and say, "wow, she raised that monster."

So the public display thing in itself would start more problems than it would solve.

Now, for the death penalty in itself. It doesn't matter if it is society as a whole deciding on the fate of a wrongdoer, it isn't anyone's place to take someone else's life into their hands. Just because a murderer did the same doesn't give us the right to do it back. Their punishment is to spend the rest of their life in jail. That is enough.

Pedophiles should be killed? Not that I'm saying it isn't wrong, but these are people with problems, who are turned on by sexual acts with children. I think it is wrong, immoral and disgusting, but that is no reason to kill them. Like you said "it is the action." Some people can't help it. Some people can't control the action. Just like a pathological liar, a pedophile just can't stop him/herself. Besides, pedophilia hasn't always been punishable by law. Idk exactly, but let's say 200 years ago(?) 40 year old men would marry 12 year old girls. Was their innocence lost? Should they have been killed? What about the father who decided who the daughter should marry? I hope this made sense, it did to me.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Urizen, I think you are actually showing more bias than I am. Yes, the sites I directed you to were religious sites, makes sense when you consider that it's the bible we were talking about. But there are some things that it really doesn't matter what the background of someone is as long as they've done their studies. One of those sites even gave the hebrew words that would be kill and murder. pretty easy to verify. Go find a hebrew-english dictionary if you doubt them.

So it's not the Bible I'm saying is wrong, but rather the KJV translation.

The NIV says "You shall not murder", and you're right their are places where the translators got things wrong. There are also places where the Hebrew could have multiple meanings and the translators had to pick one. This case is neither there are definite words for kill and murder. The Hebrew word used was the one meaning murder.

Bad Liberal, Bad 😛 right back at ya.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Yahweh appreciates the death penalty.

Lord Urizen: go away. You know nothing. I can imagine you stating about how I ought to educate you since you apparently are unaware of your ignorance. This isn't the thread for it. Make a thread in the religion forum about God's views on stuff if you want an actual discussion or to see why many Christians believe what they believe (NUURH LOL BRAINWASHING AMIRITE?). You'll find that there's a reason that there is a vast gulf between Christian conservatives and liberal Christians (and it's not ebcause one group is stupid lolz).

Though, I must say, I love your posting style. Might I refer you to my evaluation thread?

That deserves a ....

🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄