Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why would you make this point? No need for it, it has no bearing on or connection to, the point at hand. I'm not out to change them, or make them change, I'm proving that using religious belief to pass laws applicable to everyone is stupid.
Yes it has a connection, since its about law & religion.
And docb77 has a valid argument that murder is a religious crime. The 5th Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Kill.
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Yes it has a connection, since its about law & religion.And docb77 has a valid argument that murder is a religious crime. The 5th Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Kill.
Commandments don't apply to non-believers, or apparantly pro-lifers who kill doctors.
This is precisely my point. You're assuming the commandments apply to everyone.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Commandments don't apply to non-believers, or apparantly pro-lifers who kill doctors.This is precisely my point. You're assuming the commandments apply to everyone.
-AC
I know the Commandments don't apply to non-believers, just like they don't apply to Buddhist, Hindus or Taoists. Murder is illegal in the US because its a Commandment. So one can argue that it does apply to them, because the law does.
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I know the Commandments don't apply to non-believers, just like they don't apply to Buddhist, Hindus or Taoists. Murder is illegal in the US because its a Commandment. So one can argue that it does apply to them, because the law does.
Wait, I might have misunderstood, but are you claiming that murder is illegal in the US because it is prohibited by the Bible?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
This is easy:1) Prove this statistic.
First, it is a statistic, anyone could verify by simple google search. But since you want me to do the work heres a link:
http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html
In the US less than 15% of the pop. consider themselves non-religious.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
2) You were not born a Christian, you became one because you chose to, because it is a belief system that appeals to you, makes sense and agrees with your morals and lifestyle, correct? Something along those lines. You chose that path, humans aren't born Christians.So therefore, as it is a choice, how can it be a default? That would mean we're all born Christians, and we're not. In the event that there are more believers than non-believers, that would only make it the more common, not the default.
If that's the logic you're using the "default" would be ignorance. Since you aren't born an atheist or agnostic either.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Societal beliefs are different from religious ones. Murder being wrong is a universally common belief, right? Regardless of religion or not, most people agree murder is wrong. That's a societal or universal belief.Gay marriage being wrong, abortion being wrong, stem-cell research being wrong? These are not "societal" beliefs. They are typically beliefs of religious followers, due to these positions and acts being frowned upon by their religion.
So what percentage of the population has to hold a belief before it is considered "societal" 70% or so of America believe Gay marriage is wrong - people from many religions I might add.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's utter nonsense. If it can be overcome, therefore bearing no further weight or significance on someone's life, no pain or anything, it needn't be erased. What's your point? "Ok so you're over it, it doesn't matter, it still factually happened. So whether you lead a good life, free from the trauma of that or not, is irrelevant."? That's extremely illogical.
You show me someone who has been traumatized like that and thinks that the event had no significance on their life, and feel free of pain from it. Yes, they can return to being functional, and even successful members of society, but they still remember the hurt of the event.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriSo who in your opinion should get to decide. You've taken God out of the equation. Your opinion is that the people are just too ignorant for the responsibility. Many people don't trust the govt. So who makes the decision? And what makes their decision better than anyone else's?
I don't believe that with issues such as the death penalty, society should be left to make the decisions. They can barely make decisions for themselves, let alone with the life of a human. Moreover, they act how they are told to act by the government anyway, mostly. The government use the media to arouse the kneejerkers, who form lynch mods, who abuse gays, lesbians and others. Who call for death.If the death penalty simply has to exist, saying that it should be for anything other than death is pathetic.
I know people who have done jail time and come through it changed people.
To say that rehabilitation DOESN'T work, at all, is...well. Not much I can even say on such a comment.
You are missing the point, I'm not talking about who has the right, I'm talking about are they making the right decisions and the correct USE of their rights?
If by using your rights you would condemn a man to death for paedophilia, then the answer is that you are using them irresponsibly.
-AC
When it all boils down you saying that, "If the death penalty simply has to exist, saying that it should be for anything other than death is pathetic" is just your opinion, just like my opinion that molesters and serial rapists deserve it just as much as murderers. 2 opinions would seem to have equal weight. So you can stop with the offhand insults.
As far as the rehab thing - I know people who turned their life around as well. Thing is it sure wasn't due to anything the government did. They made the decision to change themselves. So I repeat, rehabilitation is not a business the government should be in.
[quote]I could say that's your opinion because you can't prove religion has no place in law. Saudi Arabia (or any other country for that matter) isn't going to change its laws just because you think they should.{/quote]
Religion doesn't have a place in law, because like he said, not everyone believes in god. Even those who believe in god all have different interpretations of their religions and it just wouldn't work.
wtf? Saudi Arabia?
And it isn't just his opinion, it's an overall opinion, chosen by the people.
Originally posted by docb77
First, it is a statistic, anyone could verify by simple google search. But since you want me to do the work heres a link:http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html
In the US less than 15% of the pop. consider themselves non-religious.
Great, you've proven that believers are more common. Not that they are the default.
Originally posted by docb77
If that's the logic you're using the "default" would be ignorance. Since you aren't born an atheist or agnostic either.
Right, so then we can agree that religion or not, is a personal choice? Precisely.
Originally posted by docb77
So what percentage of the population has to hold a belief before it is considered "societal" 70% or so of America believe Gay marriage is wrong - people from many religions I might add.
You're missing the point here.
Murder, if committed, affects a religious family or a non-religious family, correct? It's there to protect infringement upon others and there to protect innocent people from enduring unwanted...death.
Gay marriage harms nobody, literally nobody. The only think it factually harms are you moral beliefs, your PERSONAL beliefs that you chose. Why should they not be allowed to do something that never has and never will affect you, just because you don't believe in it? Voice your opinion all you want, sure thing, but don't be so downright despicable as to make moves to actively stop them doing it when it has no impact on you.
Originally posted by docb77
You show me someone who has been traumatized like that and thinks that the event had no significance on their life, and feel free of pain from it. Yes, they can return to being functional, and even successful members of society, but they still remember the hurt of the event.
That's beyond illogical. I remember getting caught under a roundabout and smashing my face up, it doesn't hurt when I think of it though. Remembering pain, physical or emotional, and actually experiencing it are two different things. Recalling an event that WAS painful doesn't necessarily mean it still causes pain.
If that's your twisted logic, what about wife-batterers? Do they get put to death? It makes zero sense.
If they can return to being functional, living life without actual pain, then what's the big deal? How dare you patronise them by saying: "You can't escape the pain."? What if they have?
A family member of mine, who I admittedly don't feel close to, suffered an attack in an elevator when she was on her way home from work, in her own block. She only ever remembers it now if you bring it up, and to do so doesn't cause her pain.
Originally posted by docb77
So who in your opinion should get to decide. You've taken God out of the equation. Your opinion is that the people are just too ignorant for the responsibility. Many people don't trust the govt. So who makes the decision? And what makes their decision better than anyone else's?
On what? The death penalty? I don't think it should even exist, so nobody gets to choose who dies legally.
Originally posted by docb77
When it all boils down you saying that, "If the death penalty simply has to exist, saying that it should be for anything other than death is pathetic" is just your opinion, just like my opinion that molesters and serial rapists deserve it just as much as murderers. 2 opinions would seem to have equal weight. So you can stop with the offhand insults.
Not equal weight, at all. The death penalty has a margin for error, and with death, any margin for error is too much. So when it comes to rape, molestation or otherwise, you could be putting a man to death for something he didn't even do (and there would be wrong decisions). On top of that, people by their very nature want to kill paedophiles more than murderers, just because of child worship. So who will get the chair first in their eyes? A all-but convicted murderer, or a dodgy looking man who inappropriately handled a child?
Originally posted by docb77
As far as the rehab thing - I know people who turned their life around as well. Thing is it sure wasn't due to anything the government did. They made the decision to change themselves. So I repeat, rehabilitation is not a business the government should be in.
Yeah, they made the decision to change after it was "Change or be locked away".
-AC
AC, I honestly don't know how to debate with you. You're all over the place (I was never talking about gay marriage here). And you seem to think that your opinion is automatically fact. You are making an appeal to emotion. I do the same, but defend it logically. All I get from you is "that's ridiculous" or "that's illogical". Well, got news for you. Your argument has no more "logic" than does mine.
Originally posted by docb77
AC, I honestly don't know how to debate with you. You're all over the place (I was never talking about gay marriage here). And you seem to think that your opinion is automatically fact. You are making an appeal to emotion. I do the same, but defend it logically. All I get from you is "that's ridiculous" or "that's illogical". Well, got news for you. Your argument has no more "logic" than does mine.
I was making a very clear point about how some acts are universal because they affect everyone, therefore there are laws against them. Others, such as gay marriage, are protested because religious nuts can't handle it, regardless of whether it affects them or not.
That was my point. I'm not making an appeal to emotion, if anything that's what I'm against, that's why I'm so against the death penalty especially for paedophilia, but I can't make a horse drink.
-AC
Originally posted by docb77
AC, I honestly don't know how to debate with you. You're all over the place (I was never talking about gay marriage here). And you seem to think that your opinion is automatically fact. You are making an appeal to emotion. I do the same, but defend it logically. All I get from you is "that's ridiculous" or "that's illogical". Well, got news for you. Your argument has no more "logic" than does mine.
Your "logic" is a joke. AC's logic has a hell of a lot more weight than yours, because all your logic is based on a 2000 year old book that has been responsible for more deaths and torture than one can number.
I mean when do we ever learn? To base a law's nations on religion, how many times has that worked? NONE
Salem Witch Trials, Inquistion, 100 years war, fkn Crusades, crucifixions, public hangings, public burnings....what the fk inspired all of this? Religion, and the Bible has its ENORMOUS SHARE in all of this !
Yet, being the hateful bigot that you are, ofcourse you'd still say "The Bible is the foundation for human guidance..it is a book of love, one of law, a book of firmness, and truth...etc.etc.etc..."
Well lemme tell u sumtn Zealot, ur book is a book of contradictions, one of uncertainty, one lacking clarity, possessing hypocrisy, hatred, and the encouragement of killing, torture, slavery, and inequality.
And your only "logical answer" is "God says so"....well, that just proves that your God is a sham. No loving creator, who created something as complicated as this universe, a universe of uniting chaos and order, would be so anal and bias towards his own creations.
It's bullshit...that simple.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Your "logic" is a joke. AC's logic has a hell of a lot more weight than yours, because all your logic is based on a 2000 year old book that has been responsible for more deaths and torture than one can number.I mean when do we ever learn? To base a law's nations on religion, how many times has that worked? [b]NONE
Salem Witch Trials, Inquistion, 100 years war, fkn Crusades, crucifixions, public hangings, public burnings....what the fk inspired all of this? Religion, and the Bible has its ENORMOUS SHARE in all of this !
Yet, being the hateful bigot that you are, ofcourse you'd still say "The Bible is the foundation for human guidance..it is a book of love, one of law, a book of firmness, and truth...etc.etc.etc..."
Well lemme tell u sumtn Zealot, ur book is a book of contradictions, one of uncertainty, one lacking clarity, possessing hypocrisy, hatred, and the encouragement of killing, torture, slavery, and inequality.
And your only "logical answer" is "God says so"....well, that just proves that your God is a sham. No loving creator, who created something as complicated as this universe, a universe of uniting chaos and order, would be so anal and bias towards his own creations.
It's bullshit...that simple. [/B]
Again I point out that I haven't used the bible except in response to your criticisms of my beliefs.
If you want to see hate, just look at what you just wrote. "God says so" was me giving you a facetious answer to an ingenuous question. The only BS I'm smelling here is your blindness to the opinions and views of anyone who is remotely religious. You want others to open their minds, try opening yours first.
I would be willing to accept that many of my views are based on emotion, but you can't claim that in these areas that yours are any less so. In other words if there's no logic in my views, there aren't any in yours either. They're both just emotion and opinion.
The truth is that we are just operating on different premises. You and AC apparently think that life is sacrosanct. I disagree. I place value one the quality of life, not the quantity. You can say that my views are because of my religion, but did you ever think that maybe I believe in the religion I do because it conforms to my beliefs and not vice versa.
You're argument on most of the debates I've seen you in boils down to "your religion sucks, so you're wrong". Well, even if you accept the premise that christianity is awful, My arguments being wrong don't follow from it unless I was actually appealing to religion to prove a point. I haven't.
So contain your hatred of Christianity. Stick to the topic at hand, not something that no one sees but you.
Originally posted by docb77
Again I point out that I haven't used the bible except in response to your criticisms of my beliefs.
You have used the Bible many many times, and every time you do, I'm more than happy to rebuttle. 😉
Originally posted by docb77
If you want to see hate, just look at what you just wrote. "God says so" was me giving you a facetious answer to an ingenuous question. The only BS I'm smelling here is your blindness to the opinions and views of anyone who is remotely religious. You want others to open their minds, try opening yours first.
YOU wrote that you moron 👇 😆
You are the one who justified killing by saying "God says so"....hatred huh? Don't be hypocrit. ❌ Your views are NOT remotely religious, they are entirely religious, and only come from the PUNISHMENT aspect of religion.
What about Love, what about forgiveness, what about "he without sin cast the first stone". Conservative Right Wingers like yourself seem to CONVIENENTLY forget about the other aspects of your own Faith.
You nitpick and choose only the aspects of your Faith that serve your personal agenda, and for that I disrespect you 👇
Originally posted by docb77
I would be willing to accept that many of my views are based on emotion, but you can't claim that in these areas that yours are any less so. In other words if there's no logic in my views, there aren't any in yours either. They're both just emotion and opinion.
My views are also based on emotion...so what? I didn't say you don't have logic, I said your logic is absurd.
Originally posted by docb77
The truth is that we are just operating on different premises. You and AC apparently think that life is sacrosanct. I disagree. I place value one the quality of life, not the quantity. You can say that my views are because of my religion, but did you ever think that maybe I believe in the religion I do because it conforms to my beliefs and not vice versa.
And what does Quality of Life mean? To you , quality of life is only what your Bible rates it to be, and that my freind is the same mentality used when Christians "burned witches" and tortured infidels.
Your religion conforms to your beliefs.....YES ! That is EXACTLY MY POINT ! That's where your personal bias comes into all of this..you only choose the parts of your Faith that pertain to YOUR AGENDA, and ignore the rest ! You love the punishment part, but forget the Love and Forgiveness part.
Thanks for proving my point ! 👆
Originally posted by docb77
You're argument on most of the debates I've seen you in boils down to "your religion sucks, so you're wrong". Well, even if you accept the premise that christianity is awful, My arguments being wrong don't follow from it unless I was actually appealing to religion to prove a point. I haven't.
WRONG 👇
Your logic sucks my freind, not your religion.
You go to religion to prove your point ALL THE FKN TIME....you are one of the the most notorious Christian Conservatives on this forum...ofcourse you bring up your Faith and certain aspects of religion to justify many of your claims.
What else is new?
As for quality of life, let me ask you something, to which i probably already know the answer:
1) Do you consider a man who is gay to have an inferior quality of life, as oppose to a man who is straight? Just from these two descriptions, can you tell whose quality of life is greater?
2) Would you ever execute a person for being Gay, and choosing to defend his right to be Gay ?
Originally posted by docb77
So contain your hatred of Christianity. Stick to the topic at hand, not something that no one sees but you.
I do not hate Christianity...its not an entity, it is a belief system, and in no way is in fault, itself, for wrong doings. People who use thier Faith to oppress other people, is what I hate very much.
F.Y.I. before you go making these absurd accusations:
1) My family is Christian
2) I was raised Catholic
3) I went to a Catholic High School and loved it
4) Some parts of the Bible I agree with very much
So do I hate Christianity? No...I just beleive it shouldn't be mixed into politics, because history has proven the errors in doing so. I beleive religion should be something personal, but not political. Religion is NOT universal, as you want it to be, therefore it cannot possibly apply to every citizen in one nation, when will you learn?
Do I go telling people you have to be Gay or Bisexual, instead of being straight? No...I tell people do what you like, live how you will, as long as you are not harming another person.
You on the other hand..any life that isn't approved by thou Holy Bible, to you is dispensible, and that mentality is dangerous and disgusting 😘
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You have used the Bible many many times, and every time you do, I'm more than happy to rebuttle. 😉YOU wrote that you moron 👇 😆
You are the one who justified killing by saying "God says so"....hatred huh? Don't be hypocrit. ❌ Your views are NOT remotely religious, they are entirely religious, and only come from the PUNISHMENT aspect of religion.
What about Love, what about forgiveness, what about "he without sin cast the first stone". Conservative Right Wingers like yourself seem to CONVIENENTLY forget about the other aspects of your own Faith.
You nitpick and choose only the aspects of your Faith that serve your personal agenda, and for that I disrespect you 👇
My views are [b]also
based on emotion...so what? I didn't say you don't have logic, I said your logic is absurd.And what does Quality of Life mean? To you , quality of life is only what your Bible rates it to be, and that my freind is the same mentality used when Christians "burned witches" and tortured infidels.
Your religion conforms to your beliefs.....YES ! That is EXACTLY MY POINT ! That's where your personal bias comes into all of this..you only choose the parts of your Faith that pertain to YOUR AGENDA, and ignore the rest ! You love the punishment part, but forget the Love and Forgiveness part.
Thanks for proving my point ! 👆
WRONG 👇
Your logic sucks my freind, not your religion.
You go to religion to prove your point ALL THE FKN TIME....you are one of the the most notorious Christian Conservatives on this forum...ofcourse you bring up your Faith and certain aspects of religion to justify many of your claims.
What else is new?
As for quality of life, let me ask you something, to which i probably already know the answer:
1) Do you consider a man who is gay to have an inferior quality of life, as oppose to a man who is straight? Just from these two descriptions, can you tell whose quality of life is greater?
2) Would you ever execute a person for being Gay, and choosing to defend his right to be Gay ?
I do not hate Christianity...its not an entity, it is a belief system, and in no way is in fault, itself, for wrong doings. People who use thier Faith to oppress other people, is what I hate very much.
F.Y.I. before you go making these absurd accusations:
1) My family is Christian
2) I was raised Catholic
3) I went to a Catholic High School and loved it
4) Some parts of the Bible I agree with very muchSo do I hate Christianity? No...I just beleive it shouldn't be mixed into politics, because history has proven the errors in doing so. I beleive religion should be something personal, but not political. Religion is NOT universal, as you want it to be, therefore it cannot possibly apply to every citizen in one nation, when will you learn?
Do I go telling people you have to be Gay or Bisexual, instead of being straight? No...I tell people do what you like, live how you will, as long as you are not harming another person.
You on the other hand..any life that isn't approved by thou Holy Bible, to you is dispensible, and that mentality is dangerous and disgusting 😘 [/B]
😱 I can't believe you said any of that. You must have me mixed up with someone else.
The only place that I routinely bring up any scripture is in the religion forum. As far as being "right wing" I guarantee that I'm within a standard deviation of midline for the views of the people of the nation as a whole. sure I lean to the right, just like you lean to the left. It doesn't discredit my opinion no matter how much you'd like it too.
As far as your fixation with what I think of gays - No, I wouldn't have them executed for being gay. I listed the crimes I consider worthy of death. 1- murder 2- child molestation/rape 3- serial rapists 4-some treason.
Not on that list? I don't think it should be a capital punishment. MY views are fairly libertarian on other things. If it doesn't hurt other people, Let God sort it out in the next life. That doesn't mean that the government should condone everything, just that they shouldn't interfere.
From reading your posts, from way back when we first started debating, I can see that your sexuality colors your views on the world [/i]much[/i] more than my faith colors mine.
I define quality of life through what is done with it. If it is lived to it's potential, more precisely, if when you leave the world, you've made it a better place for having been there. For example, the life of someone like Mother Theresa, or Ghandi has much more value than someone who spends their life pursuing selfish interests or crimes.
Originally posted by docb77
😱 I can't believe you said any of that. You must have me mixed up with someone else.
Either that, or you have separate personalities..one for the religion forum, and one for the General Discussion Forum 😉
Originally posted by docb77
:The only place that I routinely bring up any scripture is in the religion forum. As far as being "right wing" I guarantee that I'm within a standard deviation of midline for the views of the people of the nation as a whole. sure I lean to the right, just like you lean to the left. It doesn't discredit my opinion no matter how much you'd like it too.
I never said you being conservative discredits your opinion. I said that you basing all your opinions on religious reasoning, narrows down your resources and narrows the validity of your arguments.
You have brought many a religious argument into the debate, not that there's anything wrong with being religious, or taking a religious stance (as i take a non-religious stance), but to only be open to religious reasoning, and closed off to all other logic, seems foolish to me.
You say that now, that religion only plays a small fraction of the role in your argument.....ah i beg to differ. The you that is talking right now, seems like someone else...not the Docb77 i am familiar with.
Originally posted by docb77
:As far as your fixation with what I think of gays - No, I wouldn't have them executed for being gay. I listed the crimes I consider worthy of death. 1- murder 2- child molestation/rape 3- serial rapists 4-some treason.
Yet the Bible says that Homosexuality is a sin punishable by Death. If you truly beleive in the infallacy of the Bible, then why not stay true to its content?
If you do not beleive in the Infallacy of the Bible, then why justify it as the basis of right and wrong?
I beleive child molestation and rape is a serious offense, and should be punished....but child molestation and rape are not the same thing as peadophilia.
When a 13 year old and a 20 sumtn year old have sex, everyone screams rape and peadophilia....not even acknowledging the fact that perhaps the sex was consentual.
Do I personally find it gross? Yes, ofcourse I do. But if there is consent, then there is no crime in my opinion.
However, for ages 11 and under, I do not beleive true consent exists. I could be wrong, but I don't feel the consent of someone under 11 is the same consent as someone around Age 12 and up.
Originally posted by docb77
:Not on that list? I don't think it should be a capital punishment. MY views are fairly libertarian on other things. If it doesn't hurt other people, Let God sort it out in the next life. That doesn't mean that the government should condone everything, just that they shouldn't interfere.
So I take it you only extract certain parts of the Bible, and subtract the rest that do not work with your personal logic...
Isn't that what most Christians do though? And if so, isn't it hypocrisy to claim to have undying and unquestioning Faith, when not staying true to ALL the messages in the Bible?
Not that I encourage you to take the Bible fundamentally, and word for word, but how do you know whats correct in the Bible, and what's not ? Do you beleive the Book is infallible or not ? Just curious....
Originally posted by docb77
:From reading your posts, from way back when we first started debating, I can see that your sexuality colors your views on the world [/i]much[/i] more than my faith colors mine.
Not quite. I do not think everyone should sexually experiment. I don't think everyone should be like me and think like I do.
I just beleive that as long as we are not hurting each other, we should be allowed to have our own say in what goes in our lives, without political/religious/traditional/social/scientificly bias restrictions.
Originally posted by docb77
:I define quality of life through what is done with it. If it is lived to it's potential, more precisely, if when you leave the world, you've made it a better place for having been there. For example, the life of someone like Mother Theresa, or Ghandi has much more value than someone who spends their life pursuing selfish interests or crimes.
I beleive all lives are equal. I also beleive that killing should be done for something out of Self Defense or Survival, not out of punishment or vengeance.
Do I personally think that Mother Teresa's life is of more value than Adolf Hitler's? Ofcourse..but that doesn't make it fact. That doesn't give me the right to kill one. Even if i wanted to kill Hitler our of anger and punishment, that is only me surving my own interests, to satisfy my vengeance, and take pleasure in destroying what i consider "evil".
That would not be justifiable on my part to murder Hitler if he is already captive, and of no immediate threat to me or ne1 else. Don't get me wrong..if I could, I'd murder the fkn **** that he is, but that would lower me.
Once I kill...or torture someone...no matter who it is....i become more like that person I hate.
Originally posted by Draco69
I personally don't give a f***. Are we really gonna spend hours arguing over the life of murderers, serial killers and child rapists?If they die, they die.
If they live, they live in a room the size of a broom closet for the rest of their lives.
Either way, they're not harming society anymore.
Out of curiosity, how do you define a Child Rapist?
1) As one who literally rapes children, forcing children to have sex with him/her, with lack of mutual consent?
2) Or do you take the statuatory position, where you beleive that if an adult and pre teen have sex, despite mutual consent, it is still child rape?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Out of curiosity, how do you define a Child Rapist?1) As one who literally rapes children, forcing children to have sex with him/her, with lack of mutual consent?
2) Or do you take the statuatory position, where you beleive that if an adult and pre teen have sex, despite mutual consent, it is still child rape?
Option 1).
Option 2 isn't rape by any means of logic. And it certainly isn't punishable by the death penalty unless your state has three-strike rule or something.
I heard of one poor 18-year old gay teen in Kansas who was sentenced to 10 years in prison for having sex with his 17-year old boyfriend....
Ditto, Statutory rape and actual rape are not equal, morally or legally, nor should they be.
Oh, and Urizen, thanks for speaking logically in that last post. It is a lot easier for me to see your points when your not telling me I'm full of BS, but explaining where we disagree. We still disagree, but that doesn't mean we can't be civil.