Originally posted by Batman-PrimeNobody listed, e.g., Lobo, Darkseid, Despero, Doomsday(s), Equus, General, Grundy, has better reaction speeds than Hulk when you look at what they've done on-panel.
Since DD was brought into play and other which reaction speed > Hulk. DD Rex vs Superman was a good showing of how a serious Superman would treat the Hulk. 😄
Doomsday Rex went the way of KMC myth Gladiator, that is: doubt = insta loss. Forgive me for dismissing that fight out of hand.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Since DD was brought into play and other which reaction speed > Hulk. DD Rex vs Superman was a good showing of how a serious Superman would treat the Hulk. 😄
In that Doomsday rex fight, Doomsday was getting weaker by the second. As for the probes, they are no where close to Hulks speed, someone that has slapped lossless out of the air, slapped a speed genis, a speeding Sentry, slapped bullets out of the air...etc, etc.
You are underestimating Hulks speed.
Originally posted by 753To be serious about it, Booster Gold exclamations are worth about as much as "random Hulk foe" exclamations to the same effect.
how about the whole flashlike speed DOS DD was supposed to have that his supporters go on about?
Except, Hulk's got more of those sort of feats in that sketchy category than does Doomsday. Doomsday's fast. But he's not proven to be any faster than the Hulk. I think that's fair.
So my honest question is, do you treat Doomsday's speed every bit as crippling to his chances against Superman as you would Hulk's chances against Superman? Or Lobo's? Or General's? Or Despero's? Or Konvikt's? Or <insert random DC brick that has fought Superman>?
I've already stated it would be a stale mate. Neither would win. It's even illogical that all of you keep debating who would win when neither would. Superman WOULD HAVE TO KILL Hulk to defeat him. A feat which is quite hard on itself. Hulk would have to "shut off" Banner to go all out, he can't without outside help.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
To be serious about it, Booster Gold exclamations are worth about as much as "random Hulk foe" exclamations to the same effect.Except, Hulk's got more of those sort of feats in that sketchy category than does Doomsday. Doomsday's fast. But he's not proven to be any faster than the Hulk. I think that's fair.
So my honest question is, do you treat Doomsday's speed every bit as crippling to his chances against Superman as you would Hulk's chances against Superman? Or Lobo's? Or General's? Or Despero's? Or Konvikt's? Or <insert random DC brick that has fought Superman>?
Damn you are talented. I would like to know the answer to the question above as well.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
To be serious about it, Booster Gold exclamations are worth about as much as "random Hulk foe" exclamations to the same effect.Except, Hulk's got more of those sort of feats in that sketchy category than does Doomsday. Doomsday's fast. But he's not proven to be any faster than the Hulk. I think that's fair.
So my honest question is, do you treat Doomsday's speed every bit as crippling to his chances against Superman as you would Hulk's chances against Superman? Or Lobo's? Or General's? Or Despero's? Or Konvikt's? Or <insert random DC brick that has fought Superman>?
Again DD is faster and it proved already crippling that Superman is faster. Some incarnations can react to Superspeed better some not. You can dismiss DD Rex, I won't care. You can dismiss Supermans victories against all those you named and only pic his bad showings against them. You can also dismiss that Lobo has speed that is over Hulks.
I'm already bored, because I know your intentions, I know the arguments you will bring, the arguments you will dismiss or ignore, the way you will debate, the goal you try to achieve and the impossibility to change your "point of view". So I let it go 😉.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Again DD is faster and it proved already crippling that Superman is faster. Some incarnations can react to Superspeed better some not. You can dismiss DD Rex, I won't care. You can dismiss Supermans victories against all those you named and only pic his bad showings against them. You can also dismiss that Lobo has speed that is over Hulks.I'm already bored, because I know your intentions, I know the arguments you will bring, the arguments you will dismiss or ignore, the way you will debate, the goal you try to achieve and the impossibility to change your "point of view". So I let it go 😉.
And how exactly will that speed help to win a victory over the Hulk, short of killing him, a feat that is improbable:
a) Superman's unwillingness to take a life unless really last resort.
b) Hulk having the ability to take planet shattering impacts, whistand core solar temperatures and regenerate from bone back to full.
It's a stalemate neither have what it takes to beat the other.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0it was booster gold? I didnt remember that
To be serious about it, Booster Gold exclamations are worth about as much as "random Hulk foe" exclamations to the same effect.Except, Hulk's got more of those sort of feats in that sketchy category than does Doomsday. Doomsday's fast. But he's not proven to be any faster than the Hulk. I think that's fair.
So my honest question is, do you treat Doomsday's speed every bit as crippling to his chances against Superman as you would Hulk's chances against Superman? Or Lobo's? Or General's? Or Despero's? Or Konvikt's? Or <insert random DC brick that has fought Superman>?
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeJust because Doomsday(s) and Lobo have given Superman a hard time doesn't mean they have superspeed. If that argument sounds familiar, it's because it's the same refutation ya'll rely on to dismiss Hulk's speed in his fights against Gladiator, Hyperion and Sentry. Superman didn't dominate Konvikt with superspeed. Superman didn't dominate Despero with superspeed. Superman didn't dominate Grundy with superspeed. Superman didn't dominate the General with superspeed. Superman didn't dominate Darkseid with superspeed. Superman didn't dominate a non-Doomsday Rex Doomsday with superspeed. Superman didn't dominate Lobo with superspeed. What victories am I dismissing here exactly?
Again DD is faster and it proved already crippling that Superman is faster. Some incarnations can react to Superspeed better some not. You can dismiss DD Rex, I won't care. You can dismiss Supermans victories against all those you named and only pic his bad showings against them. You can also dismiss that Lobo has speed that is over Hulks.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeTypical deflection. Try letting go of your double-standards whereby you arbitrarily excuse DC bricks from the insipid rationale you apply to Hulk.
I'm already bored, because I know your intentions, I know the arguments you will bring, the arguments you will dismiss or ignore, the way you will debate, the goal you try to achieve and the impossibility to change your "point of view". So I let it go 😉.
If I were to argue that Superman can't beat Hulk with his speed but Gladiator, Hyperion and Sentry can, you'd be all over me. And justifiably so. When you're ready to have an honest discussion free of hypocrisy, let me know. Until then, your double-standards are as unjustified as they are obvious.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Just because Doomsday(s) and Lobo have given Superman a hard time doesn't mean they have superspeed. If that argument sounds familiar, it's because it's the same refutation ya'll rely on to dismiss Hulk's speed in his fights against Gladiator, Hyperion and Sentry. Superman didn't dominate Konvikt with superspeed. Superman didn't dominate Despero with superspeed. Superman didn't dominate Grundy with superspeed. Superman didn't dominate the General with superspeed. Superman didn't dominate Darkseid with superspeed. Superman didn't dominate a non-Doomsday Rex Doomsday with superspeed. Superman didn't dominate Lobo with superspeed. What victories am I dismissing here exactly? Typical deflection. Try letting go of your double-standards whereby you arbitrarily excuse DC bricks from the insipid rationale you apply to Hulk.If I were to argue that Superman can't beat Hulk with his speed but Gladiator, Hyperion and Sentry can, you'd be all over me. And justifiably so. When you're ready to have an honest discussion free of hypocrisy, let me know. Until then, your double-standards are as unjustified as they are obvious.
And just exactly how does this prove that EITHER would win when it's obvious neither would. It's a stalemate. It's illogical to even think that Superman can beat Hulk without killing him as illogical as it would be for Hulk to go all out without shutting off his fail safe Bruce Banner subconscious.
@ODG This is exactly what I expected. Nothing new from your direction. And nice to know that Sentry just went into a slugfest with Hulk, and ignored his other powers. Anyway, when i see that you change, grow-up or whatever you call it, then we can indeed have an honest discussion free of hypocrisy 😉.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
@ODG This is exactly what I expected. Nothing new from your direction. And nice to know that Sentry just went into a slugfest with Hulk, and ignored his other powers. Anyway, when i see that you change, grow-up or whatever you call it, then we can indeed have an honest discussion free of hypocrisy 😉.
You are completely missing his point.
^ He knows what my point is. He's just trying to avoid it.
Originally posted by Batman-PrimeSentry used flight and projected a torrent of energy that we haven't seen matched in any of Sentry's other fights, etc. He hadn't even come to grips with his matter manipulation powers at that time. Oh, actually if I wanted to use your arbitrary rationale, Sentry used superspeed too, like Superman used speed against the General, Lobo, etc.
@ODG This is exactly what I expected. Nothing new from your direction. And nice to know that Sentry just went into a slugfest with Hulk, and ignored his other powers. Anyway, when i see that you change, grow-up or whatever you call it, then we can indeed have an honest discussion free of hypocrisy 😉.
Talking past me isn't remedying the crippling hypocrisy at the core of your arguments: superspeed doesn't matter when DC bricks fight Superman, it only matters when Marvel bricks fight Superman.
Guys, stop antagonizing each other.
I'm as much a Hulk fan as several of you. But you can't just call CIS, BS, or ignore feats because you want this to be a slugfest.
DOS DD had superspeed. It was show in the dialogue of characters. Fact.
Superman has shown speed feats while fighting. Fact.
Referencing fights that Superman had while in the middle of populated areas isn't the same as fighting in the KMC default arena.
This has been addressed by mods several times. And most, if not all of you know the forum rules regarding hamstinging certain characters because you don't think they'll fight that way.
Superman has an array of power plus flight and speed. Hulk will have to deal with it, period
Originally posted by -Pr-
[B]Clarification of CISOk people, here are the finalised rules as regards PIS, CIS, and everything related to it.
PIS is, as always, off unless the thread starter says it's ON.
CIS, as was said before, is now a more diverse term, but is not as vague as before.
While CIS still exists in the form of characters like Rhino (who are just too stupid to know better), it also exists in one other form.
This is known as Character Inhibited Power. This applies to characters that have intelligence, like the Silver Surfer, Superman, and so on and so forth.
As Bada said:
"It's a self imposed limitation in certain circumstances which there is concern for civilians and buildings for the most part. It's not stupidity, it's a limitation set until the threat exceeds a certain threshold."
What this means is that people like the Surfer and Superman and so on will not use the full extent of their powers if it will endanger civilians. It doesn't, though, mean they will fight like idiots. The character's personality is an integral part of the match and dictates how they will perform. This is the crux of the rules we've come up with. It doesn't come down to powers, it comes down to the man or woman that weilds them.
In accordance with this, several factors come in to play in debates:
The Opponent, Basic Information, the Arena and the Character's Personality and Experience
Those four are key.
Example:
If Martian Manhunter fights say, Juggernaut.
MM doesn't personally know Juggernaut (Opponent). So he has Basic Information. This is categorised as being what the general public would know about the Juggernaut. It goes by averages. If that average man or woman on the street knows that Juggernaut is super strong, then MM knows. The average man or woman doesn't know, however, that the Juggernaut is weak against psionics. J'onn would approach with caution, not knowing whether Juggernaut was in his weight class, and not knowing the full extent of the man's powers.
However. If Martian Manhunter went up against Amazo, he would know to go for broke right at the start, because he KNOWS Amazo (Personality and Experience). He will use his speed, his strength, his shapeshifting. This is because if he knows what it takes to bring down Amazo, or he believes his standard attacks won't work. If J'onn was fighting Juggernaut, there would come a point when he would realise that normal attacks won't work, and would up his game. Any character that doesn't suffer from Rhino-esque stupidity is capable of this. Even with this, though, the Arena comes in to play. If civilians are in danger, J'onn won't shapeshift in to a fire breathing dragon. Juggernaut on the other hand doesn't care, so wouldn't hesitate to toss cars and trucks full of civilians at the Martian.
Examples:
Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him.
Superman would go all out against Doomsday or Despero because he knows how powerful they are. Against the Hulk, he's going to take a few punches before realising he'll have to use something rather than slugging it out. He won't bathe the street in heat vision either, because there are civilians nearby.
It ALL comes down to the CHARACTER, not the POWERSET. [/B]
Originally posted by Badabing
Guys, stop antagonizing each other.I'm as much a Hulk fan as several of you. But you can't just call CIS, BS, or ignore feats because you want this to be a slugfest.
DOS DD had superspeed. It was show in the dialogue of characters. Fact.
Superman has shown speed feats while fighting. Fact.
Referencing fights that Superman had while in the middle of populated areas isn't the same as fighting in the KMC default arena.
This has been addressed by mods several times. And most, if not all of you know the forum rules regarding hamstinging certain characters because you don't think they'll fight that way.
Superman has an array of power plus flight and speed. Hulk will have to deal with it, period
I promise you I knew this was coming. 😘