Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Except Superman doesn't blitz opponents he's well aware of and knows how dangerous they are. He certainly doesn't use his speed to the extent that you're claiming he will.That's the whole point.
It's just a cop out from having to admit that Superman by powersets is unbeatable by the Hulk.
If Superman does not want to be touched--and he does use significant fractions of his speed often enough to make it a viable tactic--then Hulk can do nothing about it.
Do you disagree?
Originally posted by CosmicComet
How much was he amped Carver? Give me a guestimate multiplier. Please.
LOL... I wouldnt know how much he was amped but I know he was showing powers that he never showed before and there is no telling if he included these powers while building the city.
Like I stated before, Superman was showing powers that he never showed again before or after that issue and it was due to knite. Bizarro also got amped to the point that he was able to create a planet and also created life.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
It's just a cop out from having to admit that Superman by powersets is unbeatable by the Hulk.If Superman does not want to be touched--and he does use significant fractions of his speed often enough to make it a viable tactic--then Hulk can do nothing about it.
Do you disagree?
It's not a cop out at all. It's how Superman conventionally fights in most of his comics. Even when he "goes all out", he hardly displays the kind of speed you seem to be suggesting against foes.
"If" he does that is key. Which is the point a good deal of us are trying to make. He doesn't use as much speed as needed to keep himself from being touched as a regular tactic when fighting opponents he knows, much less against someone who he'll be unsure of in comparison. If you look at Superman as a whole, you'll know he just doesn't fight like how you're describing in character.
If this was CIS off Superman, sure, he'd be throwing bajillions of galaxy shattering punches at Hulk before he could react. But he's not.
Again, though, how does Superman's speed differ from specific exotic powers that could effectively make a character otherwise untouchable/unbeatable by opponents?
He got new abilities, but where was it demonstrated that his stats were amped in any significant way? That's what I'm asking. 🙂
Afterall, Superman rebuilding a city is NOT out of the ordinary for his abilities.
I remember even back in the Golden age Superman did something similar, built an underground city or some such, from scratch.
Originally posted by CosmicComet
He got new abilities, but where was it demonstrated that his stats were amped in any significant way? That's what I'm asking. 🙂Afterall, Superman rebuilding a city is NOT out of the ordinary for his abilities.
I remember even back in the Golden age Superman did something similar, built an underground city or some such, from scratch.
Sigh*
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The comics show instances of Superman using his speed in creative ways. The comics do not support Superman regularly using his speed to render himself and others untouched by harm and inflict maximum damage possible short of seriously injuring or killing someone.No one said Superman's stupid. He'll try to win against Hulk. And he'll do it the way the vast majority of his comics support him fighting someone, not this fantasy scenario where he's untouchable. The writers dictate his personality, his fighting style, how liberal he is with his powers, etc. Just like writers dictate that with EVERY OTHER CHARACTER EVER.
The only difference between Superman and Thor/Surfer/GL/Etc. is that this is about speed versus an exotic power, and somehow, when Superman doesn't use his speed like you and others think, it's plot dependent and PIS....but not so for other characters.
What's the difference?
I think we are getting crossed up here. I never said nor implied that Superman won't get touched. I believe he will let Hulk hit him to gauge where he is at. For a being such as Superman so careful not to kill, this is absolutely necessary for him to do.
Personality has nothing to do with seeing a slow motion attack come your way and purposely still stand in the way to get hit, knowing it is going to fuk you up bad. Even you should know that writers FORGET about characters powers at times.
Superman will only get hit by a slow moving attack is because HE WANTS TO. I say for gauging, stopping, or intimidating purposes only.
Originally posted by h1a8
But it is important to distinguish why a character sometimes fights the way they do. It could because they have warrior code, or because they don't kill, or simply because the writer needs them to in order to prolong the battle and story. We can dismiss the latter on these forum fights. Superman may take a hit or two just to gauge how powerful a character is. But if he feels the character is far too powerful then there is absolutely no reason he wouldn't use his speed to avoid getting hit and delivering hits of his own.Superman has no warrior code that implies 'no use of speed because that is a form of cheating'. Thor has a code which allows him to slug it out until he deems it necessary to bfr or another exotic tactic.
We must use common sense to differentiate the reasons.
With that said, Superman would be willing to not use his speed in the beginning to gauge where Hulk is at. Either Superman still beats him or finds himself having to use his speed eventually. So it is moot whether he uses it in the beginning since he won't be one shot and he may eventually use it later.
Stalemate brah. Assuming we go with Superman - Speed - Can't be touched then Hulk - Insane Regeneration - Not dying anytime soon.
So, basically, Superman being tagged by people slower than him is PIS, because he should dodge them. And Superman actively fighting in slug fests is PIS because he should just blitz them in less than a second to end the battle.
Do you realize what kind of slippery slope you stand upon if you arbitrarily determine that Superman/Flash/Speedsters not using their speed in battle forum mode = PIS? Effectively, you're deciding that because they don't use a specific power, in this case, speed, to their maximum displayed ability (which often isn't a combat feat) you're opening the flood gates for all kinds of insane and wildly OOC stratagems for comic characters?
Originally posted by quanchi112Just stop it!
Clarification of CISExamples:
Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him.
Superman would go all out against Doomsday or Despero because he knows how powerful they are. Against the Hulk, he's going to take a few punches before realising he'll have to use something rather than slugging it out. He won't bathe the street in heat vision either, because there are civilians nearby.
It's in the rules he takes Hulk's punches so this idea of him blitzing from the get go is just purely feat based.
No one here is even arguing that Superman will blitz from the get go.
Try again!
Originally posted by IssacFrost
Stalemate brah. Assuming we go with Superman - Speed - Can't be touched then Hulk - Insane Regeneration - Not dying anytime soon.
Hulk has been koed many times in comics. He is not un koable.
Regeneration has nothing to do with being koed or bfred.
Superman can simply uppercut him as easy as he did Lobo into outer space if push came to shove.
Jake, we aren't talking about flying from the sun and back or some shit. Not simply linear travel.
Superman and Flash have speed feats that are combat applicable even when they are not within combat contexts.
Superman being able to rebuild a city in seconds, means he's moving his arms back and forth who knows how many times within that time frame...maybe trillions of times.
Moves his arms back and forth = hand speed. Obviously, that's combat applicable.
Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk has been koed many times in comics. He is not un koable.Regeneration has nothing to do with being koed or bfred.
Superman can simply uppercut him as easy as he did Lobo into outer space if push came to shove.
Superman was amped when he punched Lobo out of orbit. How many times do I have to tell you this?
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
So, basically, Superman being tagged by people slower than him is PIS, because he should dodge them. And Superman actively fighting in slug fests is PIS because he should just blitz them in less than a second to end the battle.Do you realize what kind of slippery slope you stand upon if you arbitrarily determine that Superman/Flash/Speedsters not using their speed in battle forum mode = PIS? Effectively, you're deciding that because they don't use a specific power, in this case, speed, to their maximum displayed ability (which often isn't a combat feat) you're opening the flood gates for all kinds of insane and wildly OOC stratagems for comic characters?
He's saying that if Superman doesn't want to be touch then he won't.
He will definitely be touched in the beginning just to see how tough Hulk is. Hulk on the other hand will probably hold back a little because the banner in him doesn't want to kill either.