Superman vs. Hulk

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Why is not likely in the big picture?

In the big picture, Superman's confirmed powerset >>>> Hulk's.

Hulk has no feats to suggest that he should even be able to REGISTER Superman using even a fraction of his speed.

I mean seriously, what top tier in Marvel has shown the speed/coordination/processing speed to rebuild an entire city brick by brick in the order of seconds?

We remove writer-inhibited issues here on battleboards. Hulk will never touch Superman if Superman doesn't want to be touched.

With all that being said Hulk breaks him with a few attacks in all likelihood which Superman will probably take just to take his measure.

Originally posted by carver9
You so know when Supes built that city he was amped by blue k-nite right?

Please read below. Pr and I put some time into making the fights more like comics without hamstinging characters with powers such as super speed.

Originally posted by -Pr-
[B]Clarification of CIS
Examples:

Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him.

Superman would go all out against Doomsday or Despero because he knows how powerful they are. Against the Hulk, he's going to take a few punches before realising he'll have to use something rather than slugging it out. He won't bathe the street in heat vision either, because there are civilians nearby. [/B]

I doubt we can be any more fair.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Why is not likely in the big picture?

In the big picture, Superman's confirmed powerset >>>> Hulk's.

Hulk has no feats to suggest that he should even be able to REGISTER Superman using even a fraction of his speed.

I mean seriously, what top tier in Marvel has shown the speed/coordination/processing speed to rebuild an entire city brick by brick in the order of seconds?

We remove writer-inhibited issues here on battleboards. Hulk will never touch Superman if Superman doesn't want to be touched.

Because Superman doesn't fight like that. He just doesn't. It's the exact same as Thor not using as much power as he can immediately short of killing the foe (not that that seems to matter as of now) to win. Or Silver Surfer merely warping someone to nullify their powers to get a pacifistic victory. Or a Green Lantern from suffocating someone who needs to breath to render them unconscious.

They don't do it as a rule in character. Some characters have instances of using their powers in the way we, the fans, think they should, but to take these characters and warp their powersets in some kind of ridiculous fashion to argue who'd win against who takes the very character out of the characters we're debating.

Superman rebuilding a city is great. When he begins using that speed to obliterate foes or dispatch them non-lethally as a semi-regular means to achieve victory, cool. But as he normally fights, he just does not use that speed offensively or defensively to be able to say "Superman speedblitzes 10/10" or "Character X will never touch him".

Originally posted by quanchi112
Absolutely false. We argue based off what's in character not cbrish powersets using their absolute best feats. You'd think you would have understood the way it works over here by now.

Thor chooses not to use his other powers because he is a warrior and relishes a good fight. It is not that Superman chooses not to use his speed at times, it is the writer who chooses for Superman not to use it.
See the difference?

Similarily, it is not flash who doesn't choose not to use his speed but the writer. But you can argue principles all you want but you can't argue forum rules. It is clear from the forum rule that flash will go all out and use his speed effectively as it is mentioned in the rules. In the same vein other characters will also use their powers as shown before unless it directly goes against their proven and stated principles (Thor's warrior code, Superman's unwillingness to kill, etc.).

superman, thor, and flash are not real h1, of coarse the writer is pulling the strings

Originally posted by h1a8
Thor chooses not to use his other powers because he is a warrior and relishes a good fight. It is not that Superman chooses not to use his speed at times, it is the writer who chooses for Superman not to use it.
See the difference?

Similarily, it is not flash who doesn't choose not to use his speed but the writer. But you can argue principles all you want but you can't argue forum rules. It is clear from the forum rule that flash will go all out and use his speed effectively as it is mentioned in the rules. In the same vein other characters will also use their powers as shown before unless it directly goes against their proven and stated principles (Thor's warrior code, Superman's unwillingness to kill, etc.).

Originally posted by quanchi112
Is that true ? If so this irks me as this is hardly ever stated and give a false impression it's under his normal power.

VERY True and I discussed this along with other members on the forum discussed this already with Cosmic. He knows this. It was confirmed and Superman was using other types of powers and actually had other type of vision abilities. Hell, didnt Bizarro also created that planet as well when influenced by blue Knite.

That ft doesnt belong to Supes at all.

Originally posted by h1a8
Thor chooses not to use his other powers because he is a warrior and relishes a good fight. It is not that Superman chooses not to use his speed at times, it is the writer who chooses for Superman not to use it.
See the difference?

Similarily, it is not flash who doesn't choose not to use his speed but the writer. But you can argue principles all you want but you can't argue forum rules. It is clear from the forum rule that flash will go all out and use his speed effectively as it is mentioned in the rules. In the same vein other characters will also use their powers as shown before unless it directly goes against their proven and stated principles (Thor's warrior code, Superman's unwillingness to kill, etc.).

No, it's the same damn thing. There's plenty of times where Thor was faced with a foe beyond his ken and he tapped into his powers to defeat them or overcome the situation. It's a double standard to promote this "speed kills" bullshit that the comics don't even support.

Superman and the Flash are no different from people like Thor, Silver Surfer, Green Lantern, etc. The only difference is that instead of exotic powers being argued, it's just speed, and usually because its the one advantage that when extrapolated to extreme and absurd lengths gives them a clear and decisive advantage that they would, while fighting in character, simply would not have.

If it was in character for Superman to speedblitz/vibrate through attacks or tap into his extra sensory abilities to evade every attack possible, then he'd do it more often.

It's not.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
No, it's the same damn thing. There's plenty of times where Thor was faced with a foe beyond his ken and he tapped into his powers to defeat them or overcome the situation. It's a double standard to promote this "speed kills" bullshit that the comics don't even support.

Superman and the Flash are no different from people like Thor, Silver Surfer, Green Lantern, etc. The only difference is that instead of exotic powers being argued, it's just speed.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Because Superman doesn't fight like that. He just doesn't. It's the exact same as Thor not using as much power as he can immediately short of killing the foe (not that that seems to matter as of now) to win. Or Silver Surfer merely warping someone to nullify their powers to get a pacifistic victory. Or a Green Lantern from suffocating someone who needs to breath to render them unconscious.

They don't do it as a rule in character. Some characters have instances of using their powers in the way we, the fans, think they should, but to take these characters and warp their powersets in some kind of ridiculous fashion to argue who'd win against who takes the very character out of the characters we're debating.

Superman rebuilding a city is great. When he begins using that speed to obliterate foes or dispatch them non-lethally as a semi-regular means to achieve victory, cool. But as he normally fights, he just does not use that speed offensively or defensively to be able to say "Superman speedblitzes 10/10" or "Character X will never touch him".

But it is important to distinguish why a character sometimes fights the way they do. It could because they have warrior code, or because they don't kill, or simply because the writer needs them to in order to prolong the battle and story. We can dismiss the latter on these forum fights. Superman may take a hit or two just to gauge how powerful a character is. But if he feels the character is far too powerful then there is absolutely no reason he wouldn't use his speed to avoid getting hit and delivering hits of his own.

Superman has no warrior code that implies 'no use of speed because that is a form of cheating'. Thor has a code which allows him to slug it out until he deems it necessary to bfr or another exotic tactic.

We must use common sense to differentiate the reasons.

With that said, Superman would be willing to not use his speed in the beginning to gauge where Hulk is at. Either Superman still beats him or finds himself having to use his speed eventually. So it is moot whether he uses it in the beginning since he won't be one shot and he may eventually use it later.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Because Superman doesn't fight like that. He just doesn't. It's the exact same as Thor not using as much power as he can immediately short of killing the foe (not that that seems to matter as of now) to win. Or Silver Surfer merely warping someone to nullify their powers to get a pacifistic victory. Or a Green Lantern from suffocating someone who needs to breath to render them unconscious.

They don't do it as a rule in character. Some characters have instances of using their powers in the way we, the fans, think they should, but to take these characters and warp their powersets in some kind of ridiculous fashion to argue who'd win against who takes the very character out of the characters we're debating.

Superman rebuilding a city is great. When he begins using that speed to obliterate foes or dispatch them non-lethally as a semi-regular means to achieve victory, cool. But as he normally fights, he just does not use that speed offensively or defensively to be able to say "Superman speedblitzes 10/10" or "Character X will never touch him".

I love Hulk but I'm a realist. If this is so then Hulk won't go all out either or if nearing a certain level where his rage will make him loose control Banner will usually pull the plug. It's happened multiple times. However when Hulk starts losing himself in the rage Banner's influence becomes less of an issue. He won't go all out or World Breaker on Superman because he doesn't know him like he knows Thor. So they will probably slug it a few before Hulk starts flipping out and Superman considers other options of beating him without killing him as he usually does which after seeing Hulk's insane regeneration feats it's unlikely he will kill Hulk. Furthermore if Superman starts feeling the pain he will start using other tactics such as his speed. I still see this as stalemate.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
No, it's the same damn thing. There's plenty of times where Thor was faced with a foe beyond his ken and he tapped into his powers to defeat them or overcome the situation. It's a double standard to promote this "speed kills" bullshit that the comics don't even support.

Superman and the Flash are no different from people like Thor, Silver Surfer, Green Lantern, etc. The only difference is that instead of exotic powers being argued, it's just speed, and usually because its the one advantage that when extrapolated to extreme and absurd lengths gives them a clear and decisive advantage that they would, while fighting in character, simply would not have.

If it was in character for Superman to speedblitz/vibrate through attacks or tap into his extra sensory abilities to evade every attack possible, then he'd do it more often.

It's not.

The comics does support it, otherwise we wouldn't have the AS SHOWN BEFORE rule. So what you said is a false statement.

Lastly, you make absolutely no sense. These aren't robots. They are intelligent beings that will use common sense in battle. Superman is not going to purposely continue to get hit when he knows it will be the death of him. He may not use optimal speed in the beginning due to gauging purposes but that doesn't mean he will never use it in battle if he deems it necessary. Thor, surfer, etc. all use their exotic powers when they deem it necessary. Speed isn't an exotic power for Superman but a main one.

Originally posted by carver9
You do know when Supes built that city he was amped by blue k-nite right?

The amp has been determined to not make a significant difference as to the viability of the feat.

He did nothing while in this supposed amped state that would appear significantly above his normal levels.

Think about it like this, lets say he rebuilt Metropolis in about 10 seconds.

And lets say he was amped by an obviously ridiculous multiplier like say...1 million times (ridiculous because his stats were obviously NOT a million times greater)...meaning under normal conditions it would have taken him 10 million seconds to rebuild Metropolis as opposed to 10 flat seconds.

10 million seconds amounts to a 115 days. Metropolis is a huge city. Assuming its comparable to NYC, which has roughly 900,000 buildings, that means building over 7800 buildings a day. And even THAT is significantly faster than something Thor would be capable of.

Does Thor (and by proxy Hulk) have the speed/coordination to rebuild a city in a few months? Hah.

Originally posted by h1a8
The comics does support it, otherwise we wouldn't have the AS SHOWN BEFORE rule. So what you said is a false statement.

Lastly, you make absolutely no since. These aren't robots. They are intelligent beings that will use common sense in battle. Superman is not going to purposely continue to get hit when he knows it will be the death of him. He may not use optimal speed in the beginning due to gauging purposes but that doesn't mean he will never use it in battle if he deems it necessary. Thor, surfer, etc. all use their exotic powers when they deem it necessary. Speed isn't an exotic power for Superman but a main one.

The comics show instances of Superman using his speed in creative ways. The comics do not support Superman regularly using his speed to render himself and others untouched by harm and inflict maximum damage possible short of seriously injuring or killing someone.

No one said Superman's stupid. He'll try to win against Hulk. And he'll do it the way the vast majority of his comics support him fighting someone, not this fantasy scenario where he's untouchable. The writers dictate his personality, his fighting style, how liberal he is with his powers, etc. Just like writers dictate that with EVERY OTHER CHARACTER EVER.

The only difference between Superman and Thor/Surfer/GL/Etc. is that this is about speed versus an exotic power, and somehow, when Superman doesn't use his speed like you and others think, it's plot dependent and PIS....but not so for other characters.

What's the difference?

You people aren't getting the difference in the magnitude of speed here.

Saying Hulk would be a statue to Superman when he's using his speed, is not an exaggeration by feats at all.

Hulk doesn't even have that safe of an argument for strength advantage. On the other hand Superman's advantage in speed is inarguable and absolute. You can't beat what you can't hit.

Characters get basic knowledge of each other. They fight to their demonstrated capabilities. Thus Superman blitzes. End of.

In a comic, Superman would win because he's Superman. But he'll pass out afterward so as to give Hulk some respect. In the forum, Superman does not realistically face any trouble.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
The amp has been determined to not make a significant difference as to the viability of the feat.

He did nothing while in this supposed amped state that would appear significantly above his normal levels.

Think about it like this, lets say he rebuilt Metropolis in about 10 seconds.

And lets say he was amped by an obviously ridiculous multiplier like say...1 million times (ridiculous because his stats were obviously NOT a million times greater)...meaning under normal conditions it would have taken him 10 million seconds to rebuild Metropolis as opposed to 10 flat seconds.

10 million seconds amounts to a 115 days. Metropolis is a huge city. Assuming its comparable to NYC, which has roughly 900,000 buildings, that means building over 7800 buildings a day. And even THAT is significantly faster than something Thor would be capable of.

Does Thor (and by proxy Hulk) have the speed/coordination to rebuild a city in a few months? Hah.

The ft is unusable. We do not know at all how he built that city because he was showing different powers during the comic. He was amped. When someone establish new abilities with an amp, the feat is void. I dont even know why you are arguing against this.

Clarification of CIS

Examples:

Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him.

Superman would go all out against Doomsday or Despero because he knows how powerful they are. Against the Hulk, he's going to take a few punches before realising he'll have to use something rather than slugging it out. He won't bathe the street in heat vision either, because there are civilians nearby.

It's in the rules he takes Hulk's punches so this idea of him blitzing from the get go is just purely feat based.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
You people aren't getting the difference in the pure magnitude of speed here.

Saying Hulk would be a statue to Superman when he's using his speed, is not an exaggeration by feats at all.

Hulk doesn't even have that safe of an argument for strength advantage. Superman's advantage in speed is inarguable and absolute. You can't beat what you can't hit.

Characters get basic knowledge of each other. They fight to their demonstrated capabilities. Thus Superman blitzes. End of.

Except Superman doesn't blitz opponents he's well aware of and knows how dangerous they are. He certainly doesn't use his speed to the extent that you're claiming he will.

That's the whole point.

Again, why does the specific power of speed as used by Superman or Flash somehow hold more weight and is the result of PIS if they don't use their maximum speed needed to beat someone non-lethally/without lasting harm somehow different from Thor or Surfer or virtually every other character with a specific exotic power they don't use regularly to the means we know they can?

It's called their character.

Originally posted by carver9
The ft is unusable. We do not know at all how he built that city because he was showing different powers during the comic. He was amped. When someone establish new abilities with an amp, the feat is void. I dont even know why you are arguing against this.

How much was he amped Carver? Give me a guestimate multiplier. Please.