The ultramarines win... easily... very easily. You wouldn't need 1000. All you'd need is a company(100 men) and cheif librarian Tigerus. The company to hold off the droids. Tigerus to fry Ragnos. This in itself pretty much boils down to warp vs force. The warp itself is much more powerful than the force, but it also much more dangerious to use.
The basic thing would be, Tigerus sees Ragnos, Tigerus opens a vortex of doom over his head. Ragnos is sucked into the warp and his soul is tortured by demons for the next 20 millenia.
hmmmm, pretty much ***** slap everything everywhere(when I play them). It is hard to find specific things as Warhammer 40K(where the ultramarines come from) is a board game. However the defeat of hive fleet beheamoth(a few billion aliens that eat worlds) at the cost of only the 1st company(100 of the most elite of the Ultramarines). Of course it might of gone differently if the sector fleet hadn't arrived to help the ultramarine fleet.
Ultramarines are Space Marines of the IoM. Space marines are biologically enhance fighting machines armed and armoured with the best tech the imperium can provide. 1 marine is enough to defeat maybe 100 stormtroopers. They are armed with rapid fire rocket launchers(bolters) for their basic men. They are armoured in Power armour(which will stand up to anything short of a lightsaber. Blasters will bounce off unless you get lucky enough to hit a weak point(and even then the marine is likely to live through the wound.) a chapter(1000 men, Ultramarines themselves are a chapter. There is about 1000 chapters, all of them unique) by themselves could bring down the whole jedi order. Also they have equivenlents of lightsabers known as power sword(sword with energy fields, can block a lightsaber).
Now marko Ragnos, being what he is, can probably take a single normal marine. Hell he could probably take up to 50(if he is lucky). But a librarian is kind of like a space marine with force powers. He also carries a force weapon(a power weapon powered by psychic energy)Except his powers are a lot more nasty then a Jedi's or even a sith's. But I give Marko a bit of an edge against one. So i gave him Chief Librarian Tigerus. He is the best the ultramarines have. He could fry Ragnos with the equivilent of sith lightning(called storm of the emperor's wrath), but ragnos might survive(might). He could wack him is hand to hand using Veil of time(he manipulates time to move faster). But the most sure way to wack ragnos is Vortex of Doom(a small hole that sucks anything under it into the warp. The warp is were a psyker draws power. It is also home to demons born of sentient race's negative emotions).
Edit: actually board game is a bit of an understatement. It is a game where you buy and build your own model. Build your own battlefield(or go to GW and use theirs) and then battle using two armies.
Originally posted by Stratigo
Now marko Ragnos, being what he is, can probably take a single normal marine. Hell he could probably take up to 50(if he is lucky). But a librarian is kind of like a space marine with force powers. He also carries a force weapon(a power weapon powered by psychic energy)Except his powers are a lot more nasty then a Jedi's or even a sith's. But I give Marko a bit of an edge against one. So i gave him Chief Librarian Tigerus. He is the best the ultramarines have.
Just 50 of them? I doubt it.
Originally posted by Stratigo
He could fry Ragnos with the equivilent of sith lightning(called storm of the emperor's wrath), but ragnos might survive(might). He could wack him is hand to hand using Veil of time(he manipulates time to move faster). But the most sure way to wack ragnos is Vortex of Doom(a small hole that sucks anything under it into the warp. The warp is were a psyker draws power. It is also home to demons born of sentient race's negative emotions).
What makes this storm of emperors wrath so powerful?
Ragnos can manipulate matter to move faster.
Let me tell you a little something about Ragnos.
Ragnos was feared by men who could destroy stars with a wave of their hand. Yes, that is correct. That shows Ragnos has power greater than a stars. Since what you called the Vortex of Doom is a small black hole, Ragnos overpowers it. A black hole and a star have equal energy. If Ragnos is more powerful than a Star, he is more powerful than a black hole and thus more powerful than the Vortex of Doom.
One. For all Ragnos' power I doubt he can stop a black hole.
two. The vortex of doom is NOT a black hole, it is a dimensional portal to pretty much hell(where ironically all psykic power is drawn and it is the FTL transport for ships)
three. Marko Ragnos is modified by the force. A space marine is modified by bio technology. A Librarian also is modified by warp powers(and the warp is indeed more powerful than the force).
Believe me Warhammer 40k universe itself is much much more powerful then anything in star wars. It is a universe based on a constant galactic war. A capitol ship for the Imperium is a flying city armed to the teeth. Of course GW(the company who produces the game) can never settle on one size for it(pretty much fluxuates between 12 km and 33 km which is as big or much bigger than a super star destroyer)
Space marines are an elite fighting group. A few chapters(including their fleets) could probably subdue the entire sith empire or even the galactic empire(of course holding it is another matter. Being the xenophobes they are they'd most likely go from planet to planet dropping virus bombs until they ran out), barring warp mishaps that destroy the entire fleet.
Originally posted by Stratigo
One. For all Ragnos' power I doubt he can stop a black hole.
Believe me, he can. People who were FAR weaker than him(Luke Skywalker, Kyp Durron) were able to control them.
Originally posted by Stratigo
two. The vortex of doom is NOT a black hole, it is a dimensional portal to pretty much hell(where ironically all psykic power is drawn and it is the FTL transport for ships)
So it's a little hole. How is Ragnos going to be sucked into it?
Originally posted by Stratigo
three. Marko Ragnos is modified by the force. A space marine is modified by bio technology. A Librarian also is modified by warp powers(and the warp is indeed more powerful than the force).
Please don't tell me you think biotechnology is more powerful than the Force. I read an article that said that avenues like biotechnology are weaker than many others(the Force wasn't mentioned, but this wasn't a Star Wars article. It was written by some guys who seem pretty smart.) The general consensus was that biotechnology is INFERIOR because human cell degration. The more you augment it, the weaker the actual cell becomes until the biotech enhancements have no basis to build off of and the creature being modified dies from celluar breakdown.
Also, show me PROOF that Warp is more powerful than the Force. I was solid proof.
Originally posted by Stratigo
Believe me Warhammer 40k universe itself is much much more powerful then anything in star wars. It is a universe based on a constant galactic war. A capitol ship for the Imperium is a flying city armed to the teeth. Of course GW(the company who produces the game) can never settle on one size for it(pretty much fluxuates between 12 km and 33 km which is as big or much bigger than a super star destroyer)
Wars are very common in the Star Wars Universe too. Thing is that too much war(such as what is experinced in the Warhammer Universe) degrades their technology. Smaller wars increase it, but eternal wars decrease or don't increase as fast as mutiple temporary wars.
Now, prove that the Warhammer ships are more powerful per unit. Then provide an OFFICIAL source that states that the size of the Imperium Navy(ship count).
Then show what makes a 33 kilometer ship so good. Remember things like the Death Stars, Galaxy Gun, Eclipse 1& 2, Soverign Program, World Devastators, Sun Crusher, Eye of Palpatine, ect.
Originally posted by Stratigo
Space marines are an elite fighting group. A few chapters(including their fleets) could probably subdue the entire sith empire or even the galactic empire(of course holding it is another matter. Being the xenophobes they are they'd most likely go from planet to planet dropping virus bombs until they ran out), barring warp mishaps that destroy the entire fleet.
You need to PROVE this. Don't just keep stating the same opinion over and over again.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Believe me, he can. People who were FAR weaker than him(Luke Skywalker, Kyp Durron) were able to control them.So it's a little hole. How is Ragnos going to be sucked into it?
Please don't tell me you think biotechnology is more powerful than the Force. I read an article that said that avenues like biotechnology are weaker than many others(the Force wasn't mentioned, but this wasn't a Star Wars article. It was written by some guys who seem pretty smart.) The general consensus was that biotechnology is INFERIOR because human cell degration. The more you augment it, the weaker the actual cell becomes until the biotech enhancements have no basis to build off of and the creature being modified dies from celluar breakdown.
Also, show me PROOF that Warp is more powerful than the Force. I was solid proof.
Wars are very common in the Star Wars Universe too. Thing is that too much war(such as what is experinced in the Warhammer Universe) degrades their technology. Smaller wars increase it, but eternal wars decrease or don't increase as fast as mutiple temporary wars.
Now, prove that the Warhammer ships are more powerful per unit. Then provide an OFFICIAL source that states that the size of the Imperium Navy(ship count).
Then show what makes a 33 kilometer ship so good. Remember things like the Death Stars, Galaxy Gun, Eclipse 1& 2, Soverign Program, World Devastators, Sun Crusher, Eye of Palpatine, ect.
You need to PROVE this. Don't just keep stating the same opinion over and over again.
... BTW: The Crimson Man is back. FEAR!
hmmmm Space marines don't seem to degrade at all. They are documented stronger, faster, and much more durable then normal humans. Note only those in peak condition are picked as space marines, and they are picked young. This is due to one the high attrition rate of space marine training camps(before you are inducted) and that not every one excepts the implants(woman can't at all. They die immediantly). You see that a space marine is one injected with all sorts of crap. They have a perfect mapping proscess for this that is called a gene seed. They have larger bone strutcher, larger muscels(which is I beleive the only thing really changed from an original human. The rest is a whole lot of implants like and extra hear, lung, organ that digests anything from poisen to tree bark, and lots of extra platea for fast clotting. Note this is not all, just what I can recall from memeory. As I have no idea where my old space marine codex is, or the book space wolf is I can't recall it word for word). Then space marines are armed with miniture rocket launchers(bolters) and shoved into a scout company. They survive the wars long enough or do something incredibaly brave they recieve the final implant. The black carapace. This goes just under the epidermus and allows a space marine to use their power armour as extentions of their body, making them faster and stronger even more. Not only that but power armour is fairly impenitrable. concentrated blaster fire can. lightsaber definately will. But I don't think jedi can reflect high explosive bullets with a lightsaber. A bolt(ammo for bolter) doesn't make a hole when it hits, it blows whatever is hits apart.
As for your death machines. The imperium of man has weapons made to blow up small planetoids(aka deathstar). Void missiles(like a giant version of vortex of doom) for that sun crusher. And well the fleet itself can take out the rest of those things(maybe at the cost of a planet to find where it is, but then again the imperium destroys planets almost anuly)
as for fleet size, I honestly don't know. I believe it was something like 300 capitol ships, but I no longer remember, and I don't have the BFG codex with me.
As for where luke and kyp controled black holes, I believe they did that through technology. But then again please state the official info on this.
The vortex of doom is about man sized.
unfortuantly you are right about the stagnation of technology. The Imperium has forgotten a lot. This most likely due more to the catastrophic age of strife and then the Horus heresy. The only one who really build tech any more are the adaptus mechanicus. And they no longer fully understand it. Although they do worship a machine godlike thing which many suspect is the void dragon, A sleeping c'tan(star god) and when it wakes up there will be hell to pay. And they have advanced AI called machine spirits. Plus a bunch of other techno junk that right now is unimportant to this as we haven't gotten to ground battles yet.
As for the warp vs force, give me something the force can do and I'll counter and better it with the warp. Something like sith lightning. Can kill, but only after a while. Storm of the Emperor's wrath is pretty much psykic lightning(so no a force user cannot absorb it as the warp cant directly counter the warp and vise versa) that will fry a person.
And why does everyone see Ragnos as a god. He is indeed powerful, very powerful, but hardly a god. In the 40k verse there are multitudes of things that can kill him, not least is space marines. If you want a list I probably could compile a fraction of things.
The context is that the Ancient Sith are described as "godlike" in the TOTJ comics, and Ragnos was called "the Dark Lord of the Sith; the most powerful of the most powerful." These are not hyperbole as they are literally the wording of both the comics themselves and their synopsis, which means it is carefully selected.
Also, even the spirits of Ancient Siths have demonstrated incredible powers. Sadow has, Nadd has, Kun has, and Ragnos is superior to those individuals.
They are still mortals and as such can and will die. Godlike they might be in warhammer, they are one powerful being umongst many. The elder farseers are incridabely powerful. And there are always demons. and in preheresy there is the Emperor himself. He took on the 4 chaos gods and won(at the price of being shoved onto a golden toilet/lifesupport system for 10 millenia.) To a normal human space marines have been described as godlike.
Originally posted by Stratigo
hmmmm Space marines don't seem to degrade at all. They are documented stronger, faster, and much more durable then normal humans. Note only those in peak condition are picked as space marines, and they are picked young. This is due to one the high attrition rate of space marine training camps(before you are inducted) and that not every one excepts the implants(woman can't at all. They die immediantly). You see that a space marine is one injected with all sorts of crap. They have a perfect mapping proscess for this that is called a gene seed. They have larger bone strutcher, larger muscels(which is I beleive the only thing really changed from an original human. The rest is a whole lot of implants like and extra hear, lung, organ that digests anything from poisen to tree bark, and lots of extra platea for fast clotting. Note this is not all, just what I can recall from memeory. As I have no idea where my old space marine codex is, or the book space wolf is I can't recall it word for word). Then space marines are armed with miniture rocket launchers(bolters) and shoved into a scout company. They survive the wars long enough or do something incredibaly brave they recieve the final implant. The black carapace. This goes just under the epidermus and allows a space marine to use their power armour as extentions of their body, making them faster and stronger even more. Not only that but power armour is fairly impenitrable. concentrated blaster fire can. lightsaber definately will. But I don't think jedi can reflect high explosive bullets with a lightsaber. A bolt(ammo for bolter) doesn't make a hole when it hits, it blows whatever is hits apart.As for your death machines. The imperium of man has weapons made to blow up small planetoids(aka deathstar). Void missiles(like a giant version of vortex of doom) for that sun crusher. And well the fleet itself can take out the rest of those things(maybe at the cost of a planet to find where it is, but then again the imperium destroys planets almost anuly)
as for fleet size, I honestly don't know. I believe it was something like 300 capitol ships, but I no longer remember, and I don't have the BFG codex with me.
As for where luke and kyp controled black holes, I believe they did that through technology. But then again please state the official info on this.
The vortex of doom is about man sized.
unfortuantly you are right about the stagnation of technology. The Imperium has forgotten a lot. This most likely due more to the catastrophic age of strife and then the Horus heresy. The only one who really build tech any more are the adaptus mechanicus. And they no longer fully understand it. Although they do worship a machine godlike thing which many suspect is the void dragon, A sleeping c'tan(star god) and when it wakes up there will be hell to pay. And they have advanced AI called machine spirits. Plus a bunch of other techno junk that right now is unimportant to this as we haven't gotten to ground battles yet.
As for the warp vs force, give me something the force can do and I'll counter and better it with the warp. Something like sith lightning. Can kill, but only after a while. Storm of the Emperor's wrath is pretty much psykic lightning(so no a force user cannot absorb it as the warp cant directly counter the warp and vise versa) that will fry a person.
And why does everyone see Ragnos as a god. He is indeed powerful, very powerful, but hardly a god. In the 40k verse there are multitudes of things that can kill him, not least is space marines. If you want a list I probably could compile a fraction of things.
Originally posted by Stratigo
They are still mortals and as such can and will die. Godlike they might be in warhammer, they are one powerful being umongst many. The elder farseers are incridabely powerful. And there are always demons. and in preheresy there is the Emperor himself. He took on the 4 chaos gods and won(at the price of being shoved onto a golden toilet/lifesupport system for 10 millenia.) To a normal human space marines have been described as godlike.
Originally posted by Gryn Jabar
1) Space Marine HAVE been degraded. Compare the abominations of the Raven Guard to the primarchs, which were AFAIK supposed to be the templates and leaders for the rest of the SM's. Also, PLEASE try to use paragraphs and such.
No one was better than the primarchs except the emperor himself. They weren't humans modified at all though, they were made from what they were from the beginning. The emperor pretty much took their genes and tried to copy that into a normal human. But normal space marine prowess now is the same as it was in the beginning. Their equipment just degraded though.
Abominations are chaos tainted I believe, but that is another matter entirely.
Most genetic impurities trace back to the primarchs themselves, such as Leman Russ' wolflike features.
As for the emperor getting pwned... that might happen because the Chaos gods seem to be growing in power.