power cosmic v astro-force

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Power of cosmic is limitless potential, AF has it's limits but affective. I'll take the power of cosmic any day of the week.>>

what limits have you seen? ss's 'limitless' power was nothing compared to odin's and is nothing compared to thanos's. even galactus's power fluctuates madly. again, af comes from the source. where does pc come from that would make it more potent? so far, people have said pc, but have given no reason/evidence to back up their opinions.

Both powers are referenced as limitless...like most others in comic.

When it comes down to it, it's the wielder that counts.

The Power Cosmic is basically the base energy of existence, though not to the extent that the Phoenix Force is. The Power Cosmic is like an amalgam of all forms and applications of energy. It could be called the "Power Science". With it, you can manipulate the fabric of existence along the scientific lines of existence, like the atomic structure of matter (for instance, turning bullets into daisies, turning a man of flesh and bone into a being of a silvery substance infused with and able to manipulate all energy in the EM spectrum, creating Tyrant, terraforming) or energy (re-energizing the "spirit" of the near dead, energy manipulation, transmuting matter into energy).

It's basically control over the lines of physics.

<<When it comes down to it, it's the wielder that counts.>>

true. which is why i made the thread power v power, rather than ss v orion. sans wielder, which is more powerful?

<<The Power Cosmic is basically the base energy of existence, though not to the extent that the Phoenix Force is.>>

i'm curious where you got this from or if it's just speculation, ill. if that is indeed it's origin, (and i for one don't ever recall there BEING a true 'definition' of the power cosmic) it would seem to me a power derived from the source (ie astro-force) would then be the more powerful of the 2 -- at least origin-wise. again, a power derived from the source would seem to me to be more along the lines of the phoenix energy as it appears to be a manifestation of the 'supreme being's' power.

Actually, i believe that it was once believed that the PC enabled one to create life. If i'm wrong, please check me. But if not, its simple. He who can create life is always more powerful than one who can only take it. Can the AF create life?? If so, state the info, buddy. at least thats my view. Nebody can kill, but not everyone can create.

i don't belive the pc can CREATE life -- not from nothingness. as for the af, it does more than simply destroy -- it can shield, heal orion and enhance his strength. frankly im not SURE if it has been put to other uses in books. looking at just where the powers originate from, af seems the more powerful.

the power cosmic can do anything that is possible even create life which galactus has proven.the pc has no limits and can be used 2 accomplish anything.if it turns an ordinary person/alien 2 the silver surfer thats hell of an accomplishment.in marvel the power cosmic is the strongets science in the universe.all i have seen the asto force do is kill so i'll take the power cosmic anyday

what 'life' has galactus created from nothingness?

the af has also been shown to be able to heal holes in reality. orion also possesses some magnetic powers, though i;m not sure if these are his own (i think so) or if they are a manifestation of the af.

in any event, the af is more than simply a destructive force.

Actually Leo, in the Marvel U, all energy derives from the "Phoenix Force". Phoenix Force is simply the name for the energy. It's the base of all things Marvel (per Claremont's insane retcons).

From a "scientific" standpoint, the Power Cosmic allows the wielder near full manipulation of matter and energy.

Surfer can't 'create' life, though he can sustain and replenish it if necessary, and he has terraformed and created plant life. I guess he just can't create sentient lifeforms like people. I don't think Surfer could wave his hand and create Hawkeye or Inspector Chimp identical to their original dna.

Galactus, on the other hand, created Tyrant, turned Norrin Radd from a humanoid into a being of physically manifested Power Cosmic in a silver candy shell, created the other heralds, and of his own power, can transmute matter to energy and vice versa (though he uses machines for the process so he doesn't have t exhaust his own powers), so it may be a possibility for him. His limitation as the balance between Death and Eternity means that he has to constantly replenish his physical being.

He kills to live and lives to kill. That's his purpose.

The Power Cosmic also grants a higher degree of perception along the lines of physics (perception of energy signatures). It's a fundamental aspect of the universe, like quantum physics in action.

Like I said, it is basically the power to at will manipulate physics to your means.

Now, being that in DC "The Source" is supposed to be equivalent to the Phoenix Force, doesn't that mean that all things DC are somehow derived from the Source? The Phoenix Force is simply the name given to the power which TOAA used to create all things. The Power Cosmic falls under that since it is derived from the TOAA, as all things are.

Are there things in DC that DC's God didn't create, or create the capacity for said thing to be created?

Are you trying to compare Orion to Surfer or to Galactus, because there is an ENORMOUS difference in the applications of the Power Cosmic for both characters.

Surfers small fraction of the Power Cosmic puts him on the same level as the highest end Green Lantern with a few added abilities that don't require extreme willpower in order to function.

Galactus, fully powered, on the other hand, is in the league of the Guardians, if not higher (regardless of what Krona did to him in that crossover, Galactus is also a notorious jobber). He can absorb all energy and matter within a universe into himself at will, though due to his purpose he doesn't.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't belive the pc can CREATE life -- not from nothingness. as for the af, it does more than simply destroy -- it can shield, heal orion and enhance his strength. frankly im not SURE if it has been put to other uses in books. looking at just where the powers originate from, af seems the more powerful.

Tyrant. Galactus created Tyrant.

He even ressurected himself, Surfer, and Strange back to life during Infinity War.

the power cosmic displayed at its best can do anything create life take life give life anything

Illedelph's posts a few above me seem to be the best logical explanation yet for justifying PC as equal to AF. Leo seems to have picked a fight in which not too many know much about AF (myself included, I'm just going by what I've read in the thread so far) but plenty know about PC.

If AF is directly from the Source (as I understand from leo's explanations) and PC is "an aspect" of the Pheonix Force (which is basically TOAA or Marvel's equivalent of The Source) it would seem to me that, assuming both universes are on roughly the same omnipotent-being-power-scale, that AF has more of a claim to being more powerful...though they might both just be equal. That said, like Beyonder said, it does always depend on the wielder (like Galactus vs. Orion or Surfer for example) but based solely on the powers that's how I see it. Probably a 60% chance AF is stronger and 40% chance they're equal, and without more knowledge I can't say which one.

P.S. Bear in mind, my opinion is based solely on raw power...PC is obviously a bit more versatile in its uses.

When did the pheonix force become the power cosmic?

The phenoix force is a universal force that represents future life. She's not the godamn TOAA.

Originally posted by sam_drugbringer
When did the pheonix force become the power cosmic?

The phenoix force is a universal force that represents future life. She's not the godamn TOAA.

Er, not quite what I said...sorry if I misrepresented facts.

I was referring to ill's comments above. Pheonix Force is a fundamental force of creation, existence, Claremont retcon, yadda yadda.... PC, being a part of existence, and "limitless" according to many in-text references, is an aspect of this limitless force. But no, I didn't mean to imply that PC and PF were intrisically tied together as one or anything like that.

P.S. I realize I'm probably screwing up some of this pheonix stuff (not a huge X-fanboy), but I'm just trying to make sense of the arguments and opinioins I've read so far.

iwould say thay are the same cuz oriion uses the astro force the same way marvel guys use the power cosmic. he has used it to augment his strentgh, from there already incalcualbe levels to an even further extent , sustain his life force, small amounts of matter manipulation and a number of other things. but he mainly uses it to destry shit. it is said to be so powerful that it was used from the surface of a planet to shoot giant space ships that were in space at the time.

i would also say it all depends on who is weilding the cosmic at the time also but from my pov they both seem to add up to the same

with regard to the PF. the same way the Oan power battery is the collection of the entire mutliverses inhabitants willpower, the same for the Phoenix except its the mutliverses psionic energies or to put it more simply the enegies from everyone's consciousness

Originally posted by illadelph12
Actually Leo, in the Marvel U, all energy derives from the "Phoenix Force". Phoenix Force is simply the name for the energy. It's the base of all things Marvel (per Claremont's insane retcons).

From a "scientific" standpoint, the Power Cosmic allows the wielder [B]near full manipulation of matter and energy.

Surfer can't 'create' life, though he can sustain and replenish it if necessary, and he has terraformed and created plant life. I guess he just can't create sentient lifeforms like people. I don't think Surfer could wave his hand and create Hawkeye or Inspector Chimp identical to their original dna.

Galactus, on the other hand, created Tyrant, turned Norrin Radd from a humanoid into a being of physically manifested Power Cosmic in a silver candy shell, created the other heralds, and of his own power, can transmute matter to energy and vice versa (though he uses machines for the process so he doesn't have t exhaust his own powers), so it may be a possibility for him. His limitation as the balance between Death and Eternity means that he has to constantly replenish his physical being.

He kills to live and lives to kill. That's his purpose.

The Power Cosmic also grants a higher degree of perception along the lines of physics (perception of energy signatures). It's a fundamental aspect of the universe, like quantum physics in action.

Like I said, it is basically the power to at will manipulate physics to your means.

Now, being that in DC "The Source" is supposed to be equivalent to the Phoenix Force, doesn't that mean that all things DC are somehow derived from the Source? The Phoenix Force is simply the name given to the power which TOAA used to create all things. The Power Cosmic falls under that since it is derived from the TOAA, as all things are.

Are there things in DC that DC's God didn't create, or create the capacity for said thing to be created? [/B]

hmm, that's an interesting theory. i'm curious: are you claiming then that pc is a derivative of the phoenix force? i've never seen or read anything to indicate that to be the case. though i suppose that now that you've said it, galactus was given birth and power as a result of the pf's nuturing. isn't that how current continuity presents things?

continuing to read your post though, it sounds ALMOST like you're saying that basically ANY power manifested in dc (and presumably marvel by your comment) derives from these 'highest sources'. i will disagree with the latter assessment. it would imply for instance, that spidermans' radioactive blood is in some way a manifestation of the pf because at it's root, it had its ultimate origin in TOAA as spiderman (and any creature) is manifest as a result of TOAA. i guess that might ULTIMATELY be true, but spidey's blood and pf are so far apart as to make any relationship negligible. pc might be CLOSER in lineage to pf, but i don't believe it is an actual 'aspect' of it. i confess to being uncertain though.

af is an ACTUAL MANIFESTATION of the source - ie the source and af are one and the same power. orion simply does not possess full command over it. it does not change the relationship though, a relationship that is absolute, while (if i understand you correctly) you are implying the pc is a derivative of the pf.

again, i'm not debating the apparent versatility difference, rather the intrinsic 'power/potency' each possesses. and i'm not bringing individual's into this at all. it is strictly a discussion based on the powers as they have been themselves presented. others have tried bringing wielders in, but that's not my aim.

<<But no, I didn't mean to imply that PC and PF were intrisically tied together as one or anything like that.>>

but that's sort of the impression ill was giving, i think. though if that's not what he intended, i apologize and look forward to a little clarification.

<<the power cosmic displayed at its best can do anything create life take life give life anything>>

sorry for the multiple posts. forgot one thing -- the astro force has been called the WRATH of the source. as a result, it was granted to orion BY the source to be USED for destructive purposes, primarily. ostensibly to oppose darkseid. again, it is MEANT for destruction by the will of the source. but again, it is a direct manifestation of the source. so, while it is not as versatile (it was not meant to be terribly versatile), it still seems the more potent of the 2 to me.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Tyrant. Galactus created Tyrant.

He even ressurected himself, Surfer, and Strange back to life during Infinity War.

When Galactus/Nova/Strange/Surfer blew up and died? Strange is the one who forced them back to life, not Galactus.