power cosmic v astro-force

Originally posted by leonidas
are there really any perks to the job?

Well, the power's always fun. 😎 And I can't actually ban anyone personally, but if I ask it of the Global Mods (with a reason) it gets done without question, so it's as good as having the power myself. And I get crazy respect from everyone now (except those who knew me well before I was a Mod who just enjoy ignoring my Mod-dom)....so especially with newer members, I'll get random PMs like "Hi you're cool" and "Here's some images you might like since I see you like Megaman" (that 2nd one happened recently and I'm using one of the images for my avy). But no, nothing terribly tangible.

Honestly, though, I don't mind being a Mod...I thought I'd start to hate KMC if I did it, but it's actually pretty cool. I don't enjoy HKH and JP threads anymore (not everything's a perk) and it's a bit more time involved, but I like it.

how do you become a mod anyway?

You pretend like you don't want to be one, and when you're asked to be one, you say "I don't know....maybe", so you won't look too willing

LOL. Exactly. You just have to be asked and then be all humble about it. Well...that or you could send me lots of money... 😉

Best "Vs" mod so far

... 😮 ...sorry to break from the topic so much, but it just seemed to come up.

Tron the Wakanda Pimp ??

He only shows up in BP and Tick threads !!!

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Yet Brainchild feels the need to defend it.

"Power Cosmic being made fun of??? This is a job for....Brainchild! 🙂 *cue cheesy music*

Originally posted by brainchild81
Translation #2: Avvy doesn't like the way I called him on it, so he felt the need to make a very lame comeback. In that, he was successful. Good job man.

Glad I made you feel accomplished.
Then again, I would expect this from someone who hates superman, but is ALWAYS in his forum. 😄

I won't expend any more energy on you since it has nothing to do with this forum...but thanks for the laugh.

hmm, that's an interesting theory. i'm curious: are you claiming then that pc is a derivative of the phoenix force? i've never seen or read anything to indicate that to be the case. though i suppose that now that you've said it, galactus was given birth and power as a result of the pf's nuturing. isn't that how current continuity presents things?

continuing to read your post though, it sounds ALMOST like you're saying that basically ANY power manifested in dc (and presumably marvel by your comment) derives from these 'highest sources'. i will disagree with the latter assessment. it would imply for instance, that spidermans' radioactive blood is in some way a manifestation of the pf because at it's root, it had its ultimate origin in TOAA as spiderman (and any creature) is manifest as a result of TOAA. i guess that might ULTIMATELY be true, but spidey's blood and pf are so far apart as to make any relationship negligible. pc might be CLOSER in lineage to pf, but i don't believe it is an actual 'aspect' of it. i confess to being uncertain though.

af is an ACTUAL MANIFESTATION of the source - ie the source and af are one and the same power. orion simply does not possess full command over it. it does not change the relationship though, a relationship that is absolute, while (if i understand you correctly) you are implying the pc is a derivative of the pf.

again, i'm not debating the apparent versatility difference, rather the intrinsic 'power/potency' each possesses. and i'm not bringing individual's into this at all. it is strictly a discussion based on the powers as they have been themselves presented. others have tried bringing wielders in, but that's not my aim.

Ok, then let me clarify my stance.

I think they are equal.

The Astroforce has great destructive capabilities, as does the Power Cosmic, and a weilder can use it to augment their other abilities.

Feat for feat, it's pretty much a wash.

Galactus can absorb entire universes, matter and energy, to fuel himself at will, he simply doesn't because he has a role in the universe that he must fulfill.

Now, it has not been written that the Power Cosmic is an "aspect" of the Phoenix Force, nor would I say that, though it has been written that the AstroForce is a direct dirivitive of the Source.

My point before, as I've stated to GS many times in his quest for Phoenix Superiority, is that by technicality (and Claremont insanity), all things Marvel stem from the Phoenix Force. It's just the flowery name given to God's power of creation, which encompasses all things.

Now, the Power Cosmic, as well, is the energy in all things in existence. Claremont's retcons of Phoenix didn't take a lot of other established definitions into account (which is why reading Marvel is so mind numbingly painful nowadays).

The Power Cosmic is universal energy (and not universal as in the universe, but universal as in all encompassing and varied; the full spectrum), and what I mean by that is that based on the theory that all energy is related (and a step further, that all matter is simply condensed potential energy, and at its base is the same energy that is in all things), the Power Cosmic is full control over energy and matter, and all it's various applications (like creating wormholes, creating super dense matter, matter manipulation, energy blasts, transdimensional apetures, teleportation of matter by energy transference, turning water to Dr. Pepper, etc.).

I guess it's similar to the Force in Star Wars in that regard, as far as the definition goes, but not taking sentient consciousness into account as being the Power Cosmic like it is the Phoenix Force, just energy (though the Power Cosmic does grant wielders psionic abilities as well, but it's based on the theory of psionics being a form of energy and the existence of particles called psions. Telepathy as a wavelength, basically).

If the Phoenix Force is the Holy Spirit, the Power Cosmic is (or at least, was, until Claremont screwed everything up) applied Quantum Physics.

Oh, and Claremont sucks.

He sucks balls.

Originally posted by long pig
Where does this happen? Maybe I'm not seeing it.

There's a page where we see substances that are suppose to be Galactus and everyone else. It talks about it there.

[/B][/QUOTE]

"Galactus recreates his World Ship and within it - Galactus - Myself -"

Even Death admitted that Strange will power kept Galactus and all of them from her grasp. But Galactus was taking time to gather himself and pull them back together.

Strange beat Death? Somewhat, Ancient One assisted.

Did he bring back himself and Galactus with Nova and Surfer? Um, no. Galactus did that. Unless you really think Strange can bring shards of Galactus, Surfer, Nova, and himself together.

A few issues more, he needed Galactus' help against Agamotto who trapped Strange like an insect.

A few issues later, Strange bargained with Cyttorak. Strange is powerful, but even he has troubles.

Bringing back Galactus himself? Um, not likely after something that actually killed and ripped apart Galactus, Nova, and Surfer.

Even when he beat Shuma Gorath, he needed to merge with Gorath's lieutenant to fight Shuma Gorath.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Well, the power's always fun. 😎 And I can't actually ban anyone personally, but if I ask it of the Global Mods (with a reason) it gets done without question, so it's as good as having the power myself. And I get crazy respect from everyone now (except those who knew me well before I was a Mod who just enjoy ignoring my Mod-dom)....so especially with newer members, I'll get random PMs like "Hi you're cool" and "Here's some images you might like since I see you like Megaman" (that 2nd one happened recently and I'm using one of the images for my avy). But no, nothing terribly tangible.

Honestly, though, I don't mind being a Mod...I thought I'd start to hate KMC if I did it, but it's actually pretty cool. I don't enjoy HKH and JP threads anymore (not everything's a perk) and it's a bit more time involved, but I like it.

LOL. Exactly. You just have to be asked and then be all humble about it. Well...that or you could send me lots of money... 😉

😄 Thanks, I try. But Tron and Paola do lots too (don't want to take anything away from them). Tron does as much modding as I do, he just posts less. And Paola has to watch multiple forums...I only have this one.

... 😮 ...sorry to break from the topic so much, but it just seemed to come up.

you are weak JP will crush you with multi phasic hyper velocity punches and HKH will be beyond ur league

<<If the Phoenix Force is the Holy Spirit, the Power Cosmic is (or at least, was, until Claremont screwed everything up) applied Quantum Physics.>>

i'll disagree with your assessment primarily because i think you're right -- as odd as that sounds. by your own assessment power cosmic is limited to the physical laws of the universe -- ie it is limited by the laws of quantum mechanics. there have also been instances where when the laws break down, the pc has ALSO broken down (galactus's power 'malfunctioned' and he was beaten by alpha flight in the tetrarchs realm -- i THINK that was the name of the world!) likewise, ss's powers have been shut off a couple times and have also undergone 'malfunctions' similar to galactus'.

as a portion of the source, i don't believe the astroforce is subject to these laws -- or rather i don't think physical law inhibits/limits its uses. like -- if gs is to be believed -- the pf is not limited by physical law. rather it is a force capable of CHANGING/REWRITING the 'laws'. suppose for a moment gs is right -- that would mean a pf wielder could alter the universe in such a way that the pc no longer functions. pc could NOT do likewise.

i think the astro-force/source energy is analagous to the pf and is capable of the same things the pf is capable of.

to say the astro-force and pc are equal, would imply the pc and PF are equal. i don't believe that to be the case, at least not in light of what has been shown recently. if they ARE equal, then gs is misrepresenting the PF (and i'm still not sure if he is or isn't misrepresenting it) and the source is likely greater than BOTH.

Interesting Leo.

There are a few problems with that assessment though.

It has been written that the Source and the Phoenix are equal if you take the crossover as cannon. Darkseid's Omega Effect is also a direct dirivitive of the Source, and it had little to know effect on Galactus and his Power Cosmic abilities in another crossover (though, then you have Krona murking Galactus like he was the jobber of all jobbers, and he's a Guardian).

You see, all New Gods powers and abilities, as well as that of the Motherboxes, and Orion's Astro Harness, are derived from the Source. The basis of your hypothesis, that the Astroforce is more powerful than the Power Cosmic simply because it is stated to be a direct dirivitive of the Source, is invalid, because the Omega Effect falls under the same classification, and it can't even kill Superman, let alone cause serious harm to Galactus.

Now, with the Astro Force being the antithesis of the Omega Effect, even seemingly more powerful, we'd never know until it is displayed which is actually more potent. Both he and Surfer never tap their full potential at all times for different reasons (namely, Surfer being a pacifisct pussy after feeding Galactus millions of planets for millenia after millenia, and then feeling guilty about it, and Orion being just plain too pissed off to fully focus).

If the Astroforce is beyond the bounds of the lines of physics, I'll give it the nod.

For now, I think it's equal. Nothing I've seen makes me believe it's of some divine order, but it's at the high end of energy sources none the less.

Is the Astro Force above the power of Oa?

<<Is the Astro Force above the power of Oa?>>

i believe it is (when utilized to it's potential which is a supposition i am making for this discussion, like i am supposing this is the pc at its height).

darkseid's omega effect is more complicated. that originated in the infinity pit, and i've never been able to ascertain that the pit has any direct relation to the source. i think kirby left it a little muddled, though i'd love to hear any evidence that DOES relate the 2. orion is also meant to eventually supplant darkseid (ie when he comes into his power he will be beyond darkseid). now, if you make one more assumption (why not?? 😄) we might say that darkseid=galactus (least according to kirby's initial thoughts). if orion is supposed to supplant darkseid, wouldn't that mean his power (again at its supposed POTENTIAL) is above not only darkseid's, but galactus's as well?

to say it another way: does it make sense to say ANY power is above the manifest power of 'god'?

what i'd like to know is can the astro-force deal with someone like the spectre? it seems from why i know of the 2 that there is a similarity between the source of their power.

in its way, i think dc is every bit as muddled as marvel . . . 🙁

You guys are close, but one must also consider ABUNDANCE of these powers when comparing them. It would also help not to include the Marvel vs DC crossover, as it isn't canon.
And yes, Orion will eventually replace Darkseid, as he did his father and so on.. It DOESN'T however make him have to be outright more powerful, rather... that however he does it, is enough to de-throne him, whether power, friends, or plot devices galore.
And while Power Cosmic is usually applied through advanced physics and quantum mechanics, a being like Spectre though these things cannot even be applied to. He is far beyond universal concepts, although sometimes the HOST soul may not be.

<<You guys are close, but one must also consider ABUNDANCE of these powers when comparing them.>>

abundance? you mean there is more of one than the other? they both seem to permeate BOTH universes . . .

are you saying the spectre's power is essentially the same as the power of the source? i've never understood the relationship between the 2: spectre and source.

and are you saying you belive the source/astro-frce IS indeed divine, hence above power cosmic?

Originally posted by leonidas
<<You guys are close, but one must also consider ABUNDANCE of these powers when comparing them.>>

abundance? you mean there is more of one than the other? they both seem to permeate BOTH universes . . .

are you saying the spectre's power is essentially the same as the power of the source? i've never understood the relationship between the 2: spectre and source.

and are you saying you belive the source/astro-frce IS indeed divine, hence above power cosmic?

And Spectre Force is an aspect of God, called The Logoz. However it tasks each HOST with different tasks that it must perform, and things it must learn so that it may find peace and pass into the afterlife. The Source is also another aspect.

And if Astroforce is derived from the source as this suggest, then you answered the question yourself... one must assume it is divine, but it would be granted divine power rather than a divine being, and the grantEE would limited by the grantER.

Isn't that kind of a paradox? All things are essentially derived from the divine. Just because the Astroforce comes from the Source doesn't make it above the Power Cosmic. The Power Cosmic is also derived from "The Source", i.e., the creator. All New Gods get their abilities from their proximity to the Source, as well as the Motherboxes that aid them. Not all New Gods can contend with Surfer or Morg (hell, or Airwalker) simply because there powers are from "The Source".

Let me step back for a second though. I don't want it to seem like I'm going to bat for the Power Cosmic (or Marvel).

I by no means think the Power Cosmic is more powerful than the Astroforce, I think they are equal, but not necessarily in applications. The Astro Force is mainly for destructive purposes. It's the "Wrath of the Source" (where as Spectre is the Wrath of God).

The Power Cosmic has both destructive and creative applications, but it's along the lines of quantum physics, and doesn't stem into the supernatural (magic). As a matter of fact, things of a supernatural nature pose a big problem for the Power Cosmic.

That being said, if the Astro Force is wholey supernatural, it might be a natural antithesis for the Power Cosmic. It's not a matter of the AstroForce being more powerful than the Power Cosmic, but more so a matter of it's properties being outside the realm of the Power Cosmic's abilities.

Kind of like Dr. Fate having spells that may not wholey be more powerful than Superman, but since Kal El's abilities are relegated to the EM spectrum, extradimensional energies effect him regerdless of their potency, and high end spells can outright kill him.

Or a GL being pelted to death with giant bananas simply because they are yellow.

The Source argument is irrelevant anyway. All cosmic energy in the DCU comes from the source. Whether it's the Astroforce, Oan energies, or Omega Effect doesn't matter. If the Power Cosmic was in the DCU, it would be from The Source as well.

<<The Source argument is irrelevant anyway. All cosmic energy in the DCU comes from the source. Whether it's the Astroforce, Oan energies, or Omega Effect doesn't matter. If the Power Cosmic was in the DCU, it would be from The Source as well.>>

i don't believe that any more than i believe oan energy and the omega effect are directly related to the source. since the phoenix force is responsible for creation, than wouldn't the argument then also hold that all cosmic energy comes from the pf in marvel? from the pc to cyclops' optic blast?

<<Isn't that kind of a paradox? All things are essentially derived from the divine. Just because the Astroforce comes from the Source doesn't make it above the Power Cosmic. The Power Cosmic is also derived from "The Source", i.e., the creator. All New Gods get their abilities from their proximity to the Source, as well as the Motherboxes that aid them. Not all New Gods can contend with Surfer or Morg (hell, or Airwalker) simply because there powers are from "The Source".>>

again, to me, it's more about the degree of seperation from the source. astro-force IS the source's undiluted power. for pc to be at the same level, it would have to be a direct extension of the phoenix force.

and you're right in what you said earlier, ill -- i am equating source and pf for this discussion. that of course may or may not be an equitable comparison, but for the discussion i think it is at least a fair assumption to make.

ill, would you say the pc and the pf are equally potent?

i don't believe that any more than i believe oan energy and the omega effect are directly related to the source. since the phoenix force is responsible for creation, than wouldn't the argument then also hold that all cosmic energy comes from the pf in marvel? from the pc to cyclops' optic blast?

Yeah.

That's actually how it is now Leo, as convoluted and assinine as it seems in it's execution.

The Phoenix Force is the name for the power TOAA used to create all things Marvel.

It's simply the name of a tool/"aspect" of God.

Basically, it's the Holy Spirit in Christianity.

By technicality, well, due to this fact being inserted into Marvel canon via a neurotic writer named Claremont, the Phoenix Force is responsible for everything, from Abomination to Zeus, from Hydrogen to Uru, from science to magic.

The Phoenix makes all things considered 'reality' (creation) possible, save a couple of concepts.

Choice is still logically above Phoenix due to the fact TOAA has the choice whether to create or destroy, so taking that a step further, it may still be effected by causality (possibility and probability).

That can't logically be denied.

To say Phoenix is absolute is to say TOAA has no free will.

At anytime the Phoenix Force could be re-assigned to a lesser role or replaced, even if that occurence is near completely unlikely.

[Basically, Claremont could get fired and the story gets revised again].

Now, to say the Power Cosmic and the Phoenix Force are equally as potent;

No, I wouldn't say that.

But I also wouldn't say that the Astro Force is equally as potent as the Source itself.

As I've said before, the Power Cosmic is power over quantum physics, but quantum physics follows certain rules or principles. There are things, like magic, which are able by their nature to break these rules, which in itself does not make these things more powerful, it's simply their role as part of the balance in creation. For any amount of order there has to be an equal amount of chaos, essentially, which is why you have the rules and the exceptions to the rules (which actually means you have no rules if there are exceptions, but I'm not going to get to deep into chaos theory, it caused me insomnia when I was studying it back in school, which is why I focussed more on law and graphic design).

Per current continuity, the Phoenix creates the rules, meaning it can rewrite the rules to it's whims with no need to break them, since it is the base of all possibility in existence.

It's basically God's will manifested, so the only thing able to check it is God himself, either directly or through another instrument/aspect of his will.

Or Xorn posing as Magneto.

"Jgggg..." 😆

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anyway:

The Soure and the Phoenix Force are more than likely equals if they facilitate the same roles in their respective Multiverses.

The Power Cosmic is control over order/the rules (quantum physics, if you can call that order) within Phoenix's creation, where as magic is control over disorder/breaking the rules within Phoenix's creation. Essentially, the Phoenix Force created the Power Cosmic to facilitate that role. Quantum physics is an aspect of the Phoenix Force due to the Phoenix Force being in all creation. Order is an aspect of creation. Phoenix is the base of all creation.

The Astroforce is a power of destruction within creation. It's called the "Wrath of the Source". Your argument is that it being dubbed, essentially, an aspect of an aspect of the DC God, makes it divine.

That line of reasoning is inherrently flawed, going back to the original rationale;

All power sources stem from the same source. That does not make all power sources of a divine order.

Whether the connection is written or not, that's just common sense.

Just because it is not written that the Power Cosmic is the "Wrath of the Phoenix Force" does not make it's power or purpose more or less potent to the Astroforce, which is deemed "The Wrath of the Source".

You can only guage it based on it's applications.

There may be things the Astroforce can do that the Power Cosmic can not and vice versa.

When Orion starts using his powers to create beings that can take Kal El 1 on 1, I might take notice.

As I'm always telling GalacticStorm (who I consider a friend on here), you can't confuse purpose with power.

Purpose is purpose.

That's why I'll never agree that Phoenix is anything more than equal to the Living Tribunal at best.

Nothing I've seen from Orion and his Astro Harness (Astroforce) would make me place his powers above the destructive capabilities of a well-written high end Green Lantern, or the full potential of the Force far above that of the Power of Oa or the Quantum Zone.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=5176594

whistling

This put Orion near death, so much so that the Surfer had to fend off the Black Racer

Damn.

Well, I can hear the "crossover's aren't canon" argument coming, but that is kind of telling.

But still, it doesn't mean that the Astroforce is less powerful as much as it means that Surfer is more adept than Orion at that point in time.

I don't see Orion being on a full powered Galactus's level.

Question: Is Darkseid more powerful than Yuga Khan?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Damn.

Well, I can hear the "crossover's aren't canon" argument coming, but that is kind of telling.

But still, it doesn't mean that the Astroforce is less powerful as much as it means that Surfer is more adept than Orion at that point in time.

I don't see Orion being on a full powered Galactus's level.

Question: Is Darkseid more powerful than Yuga Khan?

Crossovers are not Canon, but remeber what Darkseid did to Thanos and the Surfer in Marvel/DC.if we which to go down that route - and the Omega force is not more powerful imo than the Astroforce.

Yuga Khan is greater than later Darkseid showings - Yes
but I think Darkseid of Great Darkness etc could match him - maybe 😕