power cosmic v astro-force

<<That line of reasoning is inherrently flawed, going back to the original rationale;

All power sources stem from the same source. That does not make all power sources of a divine order.>>

that's the thing -- it is not 'stemming from the source' -- it IS the source, granted to orion BY the source. to me, it's akin to one of the pf avatars wielding the pf. the avatar may not possess ALL the pf, or be able to control it completely, but it is inherently -- despite the lack of control -- the pf. in the same manner, there is no difference, zero degrees of seperation between the souce and the astro-force. true enough that orion may not have the level of control of the af as ss does of the pc (that x-over still didn't do orion justice i don't think, and don't forget in that same issue the omega effect polished off the ss with one shot -- omega effect > than pc?)

by allowing the assumption pf=source, then saying you don't think pc is equal to pf, that implies that pc must be less than af because af = source, ie it IS the source's power. it is being limited (for the most part, because it has been used in many other ways) BY THE SOURCE to function mainly as a weapon of destruction at this time, but it is still the same power that exists beyond the wall.

and you're right, marvel's new cosmology DOES seem to suck.

by the way, thanks for the entertaining and thought provoking discussion. 😉

Originally posted by Mindship
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=5176594

whistling

This put Orion near death, so much so that the Surfer had to fend off the Black Racer

Well, now I know that it shouldn't be counted as canon if Surfer held off Black Racer, who is the harbinger of death.

Black Racer..... pretty whack for a name eh ??

Originally posted by EsteemedLeader
Well, now I know that it shouldn't be counted as canon if Surfer held off Black Racer, who is the harbinger of death.

Poor wording on my part. The Surfer stands before the Racer and warns him to leave Orion alone, that O is to noble a warrior to die this day--how much SS could have acutally done to stop BR is another matter. But in those few seconds the Surfer bought for Orion, O's motherbox fixed him up.

Thing is, I always thought Orion was tougher than this (and I am no Orion fan). But this was also SS before Galactus reduced his power and before the sonic shark reduced SS's power even more.

And yeah, "Black Racer" is a pretty lame-o name. And why would Death's harbinger zip around on skiis? Sounds like SS clone to me, a clone trying not to look like one. For that matter, I'm not too crazy about "astroforce" either.

kirby's names are CLASSICS!! mr miracle? big barda? granny goodness?

what's not to LOVE!?

and you're right mindship, that wa sa poor showing of orion. he actually seemed to DOUBT himself, or fear ss's power. very bad characterization for someone that should certainly be viewed at ss's level.

by the way, thanks for the entertaining and thought provoking discussion.

No problem Leo. Thank you too. It's good to have an intelligent convo on here without someone getting defensive andd hurling insults simply due to a differing view. Some people treat comic book fandom like religion and take it way too far.

by allowing the assumption pf=source, then saying you don't think pc is equal to pf, that implies that pc must be less than af because af = source, ie it IS the source's power. it is being limited (for the most part, because it has been used in many other ways) BY THE SOURCE to function mainly as a weapon of destruction at this time, but it is still the same power that exists beyond the wall.

I see your point, but here's the thing:

The Power Cosmic was created by the Phoenix Force to fulfill a role in creation. It does come from The Phoenix Force, and it is, technically, the Phoenix Force, it simply isn't the complete Phoenix Force. Everything from Jubilee's fireworks to the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak to Anthropomorpho's dimension's powers to create manifestation bodies for abstracts comes from Phoenix.

Thanks to Claremont's meddling, everything Marvel is Phoenix based.

Now, the Power Cosmic is not the complete Phoenix Force, but it is of the Phoenix Force, just as the Astroforce is not the complete Source, but of the Source. The power comes from Phoenix, but Surfer, or Galactus, or any other wielder of the Power Cosmic, is not a Phoenix Host. The Power Cosmic is the power to control the physical laws of creation (quantum physics, or a reasonable comic book equivalent of quantum physics) granted, and created, by TOAA through Phoenix.

The Astroforce is the ability to destroy granted by the Source.

Orion is not a "Source Avatar". He's not a living physical embodiment of the Source.

Now, with that said, there's still another question:

If the Astroforce is the Wrath of the Source, and the Spectre Force is the Wrath of the Presence, and the Source is an aspect of the Presence, isn't the Astroforce actually the Wrath of the Presence, because the Source is in actuality the Presence? Would that make Orion Spectre's equal? Or are Orion's powers an aspect of Spectre since the Source is an aspect of the Presence?

<<If the Astroforce is the Wrath of the Source, and the Spectre Force is the Wrath of the Presence, and the Source is an aspect of the Presence, isn't the Astroforce actually the Wrath of the Presence, because the Source is in actuality the Presence? Would that make Orion Spectre's equal? Or are Orion's powers an aspect of Spectre since the Source is an aspect of the Presence?>>

ha! i was wondering the same thing. it's why i invited juntai in because he seems up to date with current dc cosmology. according to him, it appears to be structured in the (gulp) vein of kabbalah. that is, there are different manifestations of the presence's power but all ARE the presence's power. logoz is what he called the spectre's power. not sure if the source of simply 'the source', or some other name when associated with the presence. one thing appears to be clear -- both emanate DIRECTLY from the presence.

one thing -- you keep associating af with destruction. that's not entirely true. as i said, it has performed many other functions, including healing ruptures in the universe. it also drives and sustains orion himself.

<<just as the Astroforce is not the complete Source, but of the Source.>>

true, it is not the complete source. but one important word keeps your statement from being wholly true -- <<just as the Astroforce is not the complete Source, but of the Source.>> should more accurately read:

just as the Astroforce is not the complete Source, but IS the Source, nonetheless.

least that's the way i've interpretted the power based on what i've read.

you've made a great argument (and taught me a lot about the pc in the process (by the way, are these speculations of yours or has all this been outlined in the context of a comic book somewhere?)) but my main contention remains the same:

the astro-force and the source remain one and the same, while pc and pf are not. in fact, pc appears from your argument to be the lesser of the 2 powers. again, assuming equality between source/pf, that would imply af>pc.

whew . . .

Originally posted by long pig
[B]Where does this happen? Maybe I'm not seeing it.

It's happening here. Strange died before Nova, Surfer, and Galactus, who himself is about to die.

Watch.

Strange died before Nova, Surfer, and Galactus, who himself is about to die.

Galactus pulling himself together, but needs a bit of help.

Strange uses the Vishanti to assist Galactus pull himself together.

From the pages of ORION #24

"The Astro-Force, the harness, my wristbands are one and the same. They are a part of the Source and cannot be destroyed. Not by mortals. Perhaps not even by gods! A power beyond the comprehension of the flesh. They are the wrath of the Source, Lightray! And I, who along stand poised between the ferocity of Apokalips, and the compassion of New Genesis, am its wielder. A light that burns in the heart of darkness! - Orion, to Lightray

with regards to the power cosmic as i understand it this power allows the users to manipulate almost any form of energy, manipulate the life-force of the users and others, manipulate the elements, teleport and MUCH more with enough experience. Essentially whatever exists in the universe(especialy on a quantum level) is what these powers can emulate given enough time and experience. that is why i revert back to my stance of it depends on the weilder.

for example, lets just step down a bit.....i prime example, would be that firestorm and shift can create anything just by re-arranging elements while zatanna can conjure anything from thin air just by speaking backwards. just picure that on a cosmic scale and that the differnece between magic and science

now, with regards to the argument of wheter the A-force is divine or not...I believe it iis becuase it is a DIRECT tool of the source, which is a DIRECT tool of the presence. so that means the source is divine(i think we all would agree) so any energy it exudes must have some hint of divinty. not necessarily in the flowery sense of the word but nonethless.... when Orion channels it thru his harness it is coming from the wall itself to make matters worse. the Power Cosmic on the other hand is just beings having the ability to coalesce, and harness the already free floating energies that make up everything in the multiverse on a quantum level and bending them to thier will. in essence stuff that already exists

the Phoenix Force i would leave that out of this becuz thanks to Claremont(not jumping on the hate wagon or anythng) a lot of established aspects of Marvel were disregarded. like the Goblin Force for example.[the polar opposite of the phonex force] becuz The Phoenix Force is an entity that represents the total psionic energy of all sentient life from the past, present and future in the universe. the key words being SENTIENT LIFE, so something doesnt have to be sentient for it to be associated with EXISTENCE. so in that regard the PF doesnt have anything to do with divinty, or science for that matter. but in a nutshell i still maintain that as Ive seen it with my own two eyes, the astro force, and the power cosmic adds up to appox. the same thing. Cosmic weilders just choose to do different things than Orion, who is all about destruction, but im sure if he focuses the energy it could do the same. besides thats what he does anyway by using the mother box to do stuff like heal, merge with computers and all other various effects it all comes from the source.

<<If the Astroforce is the Wrath of the Source, and the Spectre Force is the Wrath of the Presence, and the Source is an aspect of the Presence, isn't the Astroforce actually the Wrath of the Presence, because the Source is in actuality the Presence? Would that make Orion Spectre's equal? Or are Orion's powers an aspect of Spectre since the Source is an aspect of the Presence?>>

Spectre Force is not the Wrath of the Presence.
Spectre Force is the Logoz, it is a piece of God itself.
It is the wrath of God.
Presence is an aspect, Spectre is an aspect, Source is an aspect.

<<Presence is an aspect, Spectre is an aspect, Source is an aspect.>>

so logoz=source=af=aspect of presence=divine power=(arguably)phoenix force

pc<pf

therefore af>pc.

and thanks manjaro. that's basically the argument i've been trying to make. your direct quote from an issue helped solidify it in my mind.

So, it's basically magic?

not sure i would characterize it that way, but it more than 'physical control' as the power cosmic is.

Been away for a couple days, so I'll pick up where I left off:

you've made a great argument (and taught me a lot about the pc in the process (by the way, are these speculations of yours or has all this been outlined in the context of a comic book somewhere?)) but my main contention remains the same:

the astro-force and the source remain one and the same, while pc and pf are not. in fact, pc appears from your argument to be the lesser of the 2 powers. again, assuming equality between source/pf, that would imply af>pc.

Firstly, no Leo, the description I've given of the Power Cosmic isn't speculation, it's directly from bios of Galactus (and Silver Surfer). Manipulation of all forms of matter and energy, and applications there of (quantum physics to the initiated).

The Power Cosmic is "of" the Phoenix Force now, due to Claremont's delusions, because by technicality, everything is of Phoenix, so it's of the same capacity as the Astroforce being the Source. Due to not tying up loose ends though, there are glaring disparities (hell, holes and bullsh*t) in the definitions of Marvel's hierarchy.

Basically, the Power Cosmic is manipulation of the full spectrum of energies, and applications there of, up to extradimensional forms of energy (magic).

Galactus can engulf and absorb magical energies and dimensions, and close dimenstional apetures caused by magic, but he simply doesn't like to because it's far more difficult a task than he likes to undertake given that magic goes against the natural order. He could literally eat magical dimensions for breakfast (like Mephisto or Agamotto's Realm), but he'd need a cosmic antacid afterwards.

It's not written that the Power Cosmic is divine (as Marvel is not overly theology based to begin with), but it is an integral part of the fabric of Marvel creation, or at least was until a certain writer disregarded all sources of Marvel historical references to bring about the current role of the Phoenix in the X books.

For all intents and applications, I still believe the Astroforce and the Power Cosmic (the actual energy sources) to be equal, even if it hasn't been written by a Marvel writer that the Power Cosmic stems directly from the Phoenix Force.

Unless, of course, Orion can cast spells using the Astroforce. Then I'd give it the nod easily.

As of now, I still don't see how it's above the power of Oa.

[It's been a good exchange Leo]

i was wondering when you'd get back to this!

and your assessment is fair enough. we'll agree to a minor disagreement.

<<It's been a good exchange Leo>.

at least on this we DO agree!

later

This is one of the most interesting threads I've seen on the forum.