<<Which of course leaves us back with the Psi-Lord situation. When and where did this happen?>>
you just needed to ask . . .
all scans courtesy of ff #384:
in this first one, she battling franklin who is blasting her with blasts from his armor -- but, his armor is powered by his psionic ability. he actually says:
"Deflect all the psi blasts you want. It won't last."
scan #2 is a very telling scan. here franklin tricks his mom into letting down her force field. sue had been recently injured and so was NOT at 100% in the battle. franklin knows he can't get into her head while she has her force field up so he tells her he is lowering his defenses. sue, who was tiring CLAIMS she is not going to drop her force field, but, because it is invisible, she thinks she CAN drop it and he wouldn't know. but once the field is dropped he reads her thoughts and hits her with a telepathic assault AFTER the field is down.
and the last one, even INSIDE her head frankling STILL couldn't best her. you can argue that it was malice he was confronting, but sue and malice are one and the same and sue had beaten malice in the past. i could have included a final scan where she tells him as they are locked h2h trying to batter each other:
"Our powers are so evenly matched taht we could be locked in this stalemates forever." but rather than that, she somehow . . . shows him HE is the real danger the ff face. frankly (egads, no pun intended!) i have no idea how she showed him this. ahh, hell with it, i'll scan it next and you can see . . .
anyway, in this scan, she is again deflecting a direct telepathic blast.
And that, there, is the problem with this whole enterprise.
Sue appears to be demonstrating powers she doesn't have. For example - if she had just blocked a telepathic attack and left it at that, I would have said, "ok, fair enough - guess she's done it before" (though I'd be willing to call that PIS). But what really drives the unbelievability of the entire thing up are two things:
1)Franklin was ALREADY in her head, and she was still able to block a psi-attack while keeping him inside her mind? That's impossible - he's inside of her mind. If she had the ability to block a mental attack, it would eject Franklin from her head altogether. It wouldn't prevent him from mentally attacking her while still giving him access to her head. She makes forcefields - either it blocks telepathy, preventing access to her mind altogether, or it doesn't.
2) and even more telling - WTF??? How is Sue able to get inside FRANKLIN'S head? She makes forcefields, and she's showing high level psionic power.
I think we can conclude that there are severe plot device problems at work here (or Malace is supplying additional powers somehow), especially when weighed against the bulk of her showings. Sue is not a telepath - she can't get inside anybody's head and show them anything.
But let me ask you, Leonidas - all things considered, are you willing to conclude that Sue has the ability to block telepathy based on these scans, keeping in mind that last scan you posted? Be honest!
Originally posted by demigawd
I suppose the same thing that prevents the telekinetic on the team from making the FF's hearts stop.I try to keep things within the context of a character's personality, which means heart-stopping techniques by psionics and nova flames are all out.
I wasn't referring to a comic showndown between Emma and Sue. I was referring to the lengthy debate over who would get the quickdraw out first. Their didn't have a real confrontation in the debate. Emma was talking to Sue and Sue knocked her out. Sue had her shield up and Emma talked to Sue through it, giving her a headache. Neither proves who would win, but it does show that Sue's shields didn't do squat to filter out Emma's "authoratative headache voice", which could have easily been "Emma's "knock you the **** out voice".
Making invisible things visible != telepathy blocking powers.
Which of course leaves us back with the Psi-Lord situation. When and where did this happen? Are there scans? A battle description? Anything? People claim Doom beat Terrax too, and it wasn't until we got scans that we realized that no such thing ever happened.
Jeez man...I dont even know where to start. But your argument just doesnt sound obective or reasonable at all. You have yet to say anything about the F4 performance in comic books to back anything. All I see are assumptions.
Firstly, I will point out that the writer of X4 didnt really know what their F4 history at all. The story was full of holes i.e. the idea that cosmic rays have a tendency to yield the same powers as the original F4. This is false, the only person to ever demonstrate an F4 type power from cosmic rays was Sharon Ventura when she became She-Thing. The U-Foes were subjected to cosmic rays, even longer than the F4. Their powers are entirely different from the F4. I dont know if u read anything but X-Men stuff but the U-Foes are a team of Hulk villains. The Red Ghost and his "super apes" were also exposed to cosmic rays and got entirely different powers as well. So to say the least, X4 was very inconsistent with other marvel comics so using it as evidence is kinda pointless.
Furthermore, Sue beat Emma to the draw in X4. However u tried to illustrate it as "Emma was talking to Sue..." its not like Emma wasnt as aware of the situation as Sue...in addition to the facts that Sue's thoughts should have been open to Emma if she's as powerful a telepath and warrior as some say.
Next, concerning the "headache voice", If u knew much about IW's powers, u would know that her power are not one dimensional generic invisibility and force fields. Her powers are much more dynamic than u have seen in a couple comics and the F4 movie. Her fields are not generic and her field was not being used to defend herself from TP but to hold back Wolverine. If she wanted to make a TP blocking field she would. She makes each field specifically for its use; thus, sometimes her fields allow in light, sometimes they block light, sometimes they block heat, sometimes they allow heat in, sometimes they are hard enough to stop a punch from the hulk, sometimes they are soft enough to catch and cushion a falling baby...sometimes they block TP as in the case of her fighting Psi-Lord.
Concerning Onslaught...I didnt suggest it meant telepathy blocking...I just stated what happened. Interpret however u want.
About Doom beating Terrax and scans...Ive never said Doom beat Terrax so this example doesnt apply to me. But I dont need scans because I actually own the Doom Terrax fight. Do u need scans for everything F4...otherwise u assume its a lie? Thats ridiculously bias... Whatever, it doesnt matter because someone just posted scans of her fighting Psi-Lord...Since I doubt u've ever read a comic book with Psi-Lord in it, the guy in the metal armor shooting at IW is Psi-Lord...But yes she has fought him, a couple of times actually.
Simply making force fields is not the extent of Sue's powers...u assume that getting inside of Franklins head is a power she doesnt have. Sue cant get through Franklin's shields? Them fighting back and forth isnt conclusive of this. That same writer, DeFalco I believe, had Sue punch a hole right through Galactus' chest. So she doesnt use lethal force against her own son...thats all I can conclude from it. And if Psi-Lord could use telepathy on IW with her shields up then he would "see her invisible attacks coming" which he states he cant.
In the end IW barely loses to the guy who is supposed to be the most powerful human in existence.
Originally posted by Wynndar
Jeez man...I dont even know where to start. But your argument just doesnt sound obective or reasonable at all. You have yet to say anything about the F4 performance in comic books to back anything. All I see are assumptions.
Assumptions about what? What are you basing that on? What assumptions have I made? And how am I being anything less than objective or reasonable? Quote me.
Firstly, I will point out that the writer of X4 didnt really know what their F4 history at all. The story was full of holes i.e. the idea that cosmic rays have a tendency to yield the same powers as the original F4.
Except that same idea was re-visited in the regular FF series where it was stated that the generation of the FF powers wasn't really an accident. That's why SHIELD was preparing a mission to re-create the FF's powers under the same conditions. So if the idea is explored in both X4 and FF's own book, it's obviously something that's becoming part of canon now.
Something similar even happened during the last part of Waid's run, where random people were being hit with the cosmic powers of the FF and developing identical powers to the FF. So those are three separate references in a year that gives information contrary to your statements. While what you're saying USED to be true, it's clearly not the case anymore.
This is false, the only person to ever demonstrate an F4 type power from cosmic rays was Sharon Ventura when she became She-Thing.
Well, there's your evidence right there. She-Thing is pretty specific, isn't it?
The U-Foes were subjected to cosmic rays, even longer than the F4. Their powers are entirely different from the F4. I dont know if u read anything but X-Men stuff but the U-Foes are a team of Hulk villains. The Red Ghost and his "super apes" were also exposed to cosmic rays and got entirely different powers as well. So to say the least, X4 was very inconsistent with other marvel comics so using it as evidence is kinda pointless.
the point you're missing is that there are different types of cosmic rays. Remember, gamma rays are considered cosmic rays. The rays that hit the spider that gave Spider-Man his powers were also considered cosmic rays. So "cosmic rays" by themselves don't say much. I don't know if you read anything but back issues of FF, but a relationship between those specific cosmic rays and the FF's specific powers has been established several times over the past year. So X4 has done a good job in keeping with current events.
Furthermore, Sue beat Emma to the draw in X4. However u tried to illustrate it as "Emma was talking to Sue..." its not like Emma wasnt as aware of the situation as Sue...in addition to the facts that Sue's thoughts should have been open to Emma if she's as powerful a telepath and warrior as some say.
Sue didn't beat Emma to the draw. I completely believe that Sue's thought processes are as fast as Emma's. Therefore if Emma has no intention of hurting Sue and Sue wants to take out Emma, by the time Emma is alerted to Sue's intention, Sue could take Emma out. I don't dispute that at all. However, that's not really quickdraw, is it?
It would pretty much be:
Emma: blah blah blah, we should take a hard line against blah blah
Sue's thoughts: I don't like her tone, I'm gonna put her down now
Emma's telepathy: *alert* Sue is planning to attack
Emma: Are you kidding m...*WHAM*
That's absolutely feasible and likely what happened. Emma isn't immune to sneak attacks, but that proves absolutely nothing about Sue's ability to take down a prepared Emma.
Next, concerning the "headache voice", If u knew much about IW's powers, u would know that her power are not one dimensional generic invisibility and force fields. Her powers are much more dynamic than u have seen in a couple comics and the F4 movie. Her fields are not generic and her field was not being used to defend herself from TP but to hold back Wolverine. If she wanted to make a TP blocking field she would. She makes each field specifically for its use; thus, sometimes her fields allow in light, sometimes they block light, sometimes they block heat, sometimes they allow heat in, sometimes they are hard enough to stop a punch from the hulk, sometimes they are soft enough to catch and cushion a falling baby...sometimes they block TP as in the case of her fighting Psi-Lord.
Oh, so now IW is the Green Lantern? I don't buy it. I've been reading FF since the Heroes Reborn reboot and she's shown no such ability. I've seen her create fields of different shapes and sizes. She's made swords out of it, and bo staffs out of it, and slides out of it, and she's floated them gently or expelled them with incredible force. But I've never seen a single instance where she's made it soft, or she's blocked light, and she's damn sure never blocked telepathy with it.
Concerning Onslaught...I didnt suggest it meant telepathy blocking...I just stated what happened. Interpret however u want.
If it didn't pertain to the debate, why bring it up?
Do u need scans for everything F4...otherwise u assume its a lie? Thats ridiculously bias...
No, I don't need scans. But I require more information to provide context. You kept bringing up how she blocked Psi-Lord, and whenever I asked for more information, I never got anything until someone else posted it. And, as I expected, it's a pretty clear case of PIS given that she displayed a whole array of powers she doesn't have. Or are you saying she now has the ability to invade people's minds with a "special" forcefield?
Originally posted by Wynndar
Simply making force fields is not the extent of Sue's powers...u assume that getting inside of Franklins head is a power she doesnt have. Sue cant get through Franklin's shields? Them fighting back and forth isnt conclusive of this. That same writer, DeFalco I believe, had Sue punch a hole right through Galactus' chest. So she doesnt use lethal force against her own son...thats all I can conclude from it. And if Psi-Lord could use telepathy on IW with her shields up then he would "see her invisible attacks coming" which he states he cant.In the end IW barely loses to the guy who is supposed to be the most powerful human in existence.
You've completely failed to explain how she was able to get inside's Franklin's mind like she did. My guess is that you're as baffled as everybody else is. She was written in that storyline like she's Phoenix, and any unbiased person knows how inaccurate that is. Explain to me what power she has that allows her to enter somebody's psyche. You're saying that I'm just assuming that getting inside Franklin's head is a power she doesn't have. OF COURSE I'm assuming that - Sue isn't a telepath!!!! What are you going to say in reply? "Well, why are you assuming that just because Sue hasn't shown any telepathic powers before that she doesn't have it?"
Are you kidding me?
And that still doesn't explain how she was able to block a telepathic attack by Franklin while keeping Franklin in her head. How does being able to create invisible objects allow her to do THAT?
Face it, those scans are screaming plot device. I completely discount those abilities as the writer's attempt to put her on even terms with Psi-Lord for the sake of plot.
<<But let me ask you, Leonidas - all things considered, are you willing to conclude that Sue has the ability to block telepathy based on these scans, keeping in mind that last scan you posted? Be honest!>>
i've never understood why she COULDN'T block it. after all her power IS psionically based. it onlt stands to reason to me that she would be able to defend against psionic attacks. it seems pretty clear from the battle that she can, so yeah, i'd say she is capable of doing so.
as far as PIS -- i dug a bit further into the issue of her leaping into franklin. it seems that malice somehow transferred her essence into franklin and basically took possession of him. now, since malice is just an aspect of sue, i'm still not sure HOW that happened. malice however HAS been portrayed as 'sue unleashed', so it's possible she could exhibit different levels of power that sue generally keeps in check or just doesn't use.
<<Franklin was ALREADY in her head, and she was still able to block a psi-attack while keeping him inside her mind? That's impossible - he's inside of her mind. If she had the ability to block a mental attack, it would eject Franklin from her head altogether. It wouldn't prevent him from mentally attacking her while still giving him access to her head. She makes forcefields - either it blocks telepathy, preventing access to her mind altogether, or it doesn't. >>
hmm, thing you're not considering is that malice -- while sue -- is a seperate entity from her. he was in sue's head battling malice. like when people get in hulk's head and see banner and hulk. just because he was inside sue's head doesn't mean malice couldn't still battle him. another thing to consider -- malice seemed to WANT franklin in sue's head.
sue and malice, while being the same person and possessing (ostensensibly) the same powerset, remain seperate entities. at the end of the battle they are LITERALLY seperated as malice hops into franklin's head.
last thing -- you say she creates invisible objects. but the thing is the objects are NOT 'physical', though they have an obvious physicality. they are mental/psi constructs, their efficacy based soley on her will power (which is nearly as great as any in comicdom, imo). with that in mind, does it not stand to reason that they would be as effective against mental assaults as physical ones?
Originally posted by leonidasToo many people's powers are "psionically" based in order to make this conclusion. Jubilee for example also has psionically based powers. But certainly this doesn't mean that she has a telepathic power alone?
i've never understood why she COULDN'T block it. after all her power IS psionically based. it onlt stands to reason to me that she would be able to defend against psionic attacks.
Anyone who triggers their powers have psionically based powers, be it iceman or human torch, Magneto or any other energy manipulator. Cyclops certainly would have been if not for the blow to the head that damaged his ability to control his powers. And yet no one other than telepaths shows an inate abilty to BLOCK telepathy by themselves.
By that same token wouldn't that mean that these "psionic based" powers could be blocked by anyone else with "psionic based" powers?
Originally posted by leonidas
<<But let me ask you, Leonidas - all things considered, are you willing to conclude that Sue has the ability to block telepathy based on these scans, keeping in mind that last scan you posted? Be honest!>>i've never understood why she COULDN'T block it. after all her power IS psionically based. it onlt stands to reason to me that she would be able to defend against psionic attacks. it seems pretty clear from the battle that she can, so yeah, i'd say she is capable of doing so.
Cresh did a good job of explaining this below, but when someone's power is "psionically" activated, that's just a fancy way of saying "mentally". Sue's power isn't psionically BASED, it's based on hyperspace or whatever. That was revealed in the issue where she destroyed that Celestial. If her power were psionically BASED, I'd agree with your assessment.
as far as PIS -- i dug a bit further into the issue of her leaping into franklin. it seems that malice somehow transferred her essence into franklin and basically took possession of him. now, since malice is just an aspect of sue, i'm still not sure HOW that happened. malice however HAS been portrayed as 'sue unleashed', so it's possible she could exhibit different levels of power that sue generally keeps in check or just doesn't use.
But do you still see the problem here? "somehow" "maybe" "in some manner" "possibly". You're trying to explain away powers she's never been shown to have before your since. And you are (rightfully) struggling to do so. And if she shows illogical powers in that instance, along with other powers she's never shown at any other time....aren't we obligated to dismiss that as PIS?
hmm, thing you're not considering is that malice -- while sue -- is a seperate entity from her. he was in sue's head battling malice. like when people get in hulk's head and see banner and hulk. just because he was inside sue's head doesn't mean malice couldn't still battle him. another thing to consider -- malice seemed to WANT franklin in sue's head.
But if he's inside Sue's head, he's not physically battling anybody - they're all mental attacks. They're astral forms. Like Banner and Hulk both showing in Hulk's head. They're not LITERALLY there - they're just visual representations of their consciousness. Sue, not being a telepath, shouldn't have any powers in her astral form, least of all the ability to block a mental attack. I mean...what is she doing, putting a shield around her cerebral cortex?
last thing -- you say she creates invisible objects. but the thing is the objects are NOT 'physical', though they have an obvious physicality. they are mental/psi constructs, their efficacy based soley on her will power (which is nearly as great as any in comicdom, imo). with that in mind, does it not stand to reason that they would be as effective against mental assaults as physical ones?
But the thing is, they ARE physical constructs - they're just mentally (psionically) activated. But the substance is hypserspatial energy. That's very physical.