Definitive X-men Vs F4

Originally posted by demigawd
Assumptions about what? What are you basing that on? What assumptions have I made? And how am I being anything less than objective or reasonable? Quote me.

U make assumptions constantly. Im not sure If u do it on accident because u sincerely dont know what ur talking about or if ur just trying to manipulate information for the sake of ur argument.

Originally posted by demigawd
Except that same idea was re-visited in the regular FF series where it was stated that the generation of the FF powers wasn't really an accident. That's why SHIELD was preparing a mission to re-create the FF's powers under the same conditions. So if the idea is explored in both X4 and FF's own book, it's obviously something that's becoming part of canon now.

Here's a good example of what Im talking about. Yes Shield wanted to replicate the exact conditions of the F4's flight. However they didnt know if the flight would yield identical powers to the F4. And it was revieled that it wasnt an accident AFTER Shield wanted to duplicate it....u've got your chronology mixed up there...They just wanted super powered soldiers. U should also read the commentary in the back of those issues; a lot of fans had trouble with this idea because it was inconsistent in light of the previous examples I made i.e. the U-Foes and Red Ghost. But like I said, This doesnt support ur argument because its never implied that the same "pseudo-elemental" powers described in X4 were going to be granted to the soldiers....so no, its nothing like X-4 in fact, I have no idea where u were going with this...either u did a bad job of reading the comic book or ur just trying to lie to make ur argument look better.

Originally posted by demigawd
Something similar even happened during the last part of Waid's run, where random people were being hit with the cosmic powers of the FF and developing identical powers to the FF. So those are three separate references in a year that gives information contrary to your statements. While what you're saying USED to be true, it's clearly not the case anymore.

There u go again. WTF are u talking about? Their powers were jumping around after the fight with Galactus that removed the F4's powers and Galactus' powers. It wasnt that people were being mutated....its that the specific team member's powers were jumping from person to person in New York; each member of the F4 had to get in contact with someone who was temporarily containing their powers. Again this has nothing to do with your argument...I think u misinterpreted the comics again.

So where u tried to say there were three separate references that proved me wrong...there were actually zero...and two that u badly misinterpreted.

Originally posted by demigawd
Well, there's your evidence right there. She-Thing is pretty specific, isn't it?

Yes, She Thing remains the only person in 616 continuity to gain a power identical to a member of the F4 from cosmic rays.

U might want to go check out the old F4 vs X-Men cross over. Remember what the whole story was about? About Doom planting an entry in Reed's journal describing how he had previous knowledge of the F4's genotypes that suggested they would acquire powers from exposure to cosmic rays? And that he subjected them to the rays on purpose?

Originally posted by demigawd
the point you're missing is that there are different types of cosmic rays. Remember, gamma rays are considered cosmic rays. The rays that hit the spider that gave Spider-Man his powers were also considered cosmic rays. So "cosmic rays" by themselves don't say much. I don't know if you read anything but back issues of FF, but a relationship between those specific cosmic rays and the FF's specific powers has been established several times over the past year. So X4 has done a good job in keeping with current events.

Im not missing out on this at all. In fact, ur setting urself up for failure. Why bring up other radiation beings? The Hulk, Leader, Wonderman, Doc Samson, Abomination, Madman, Dr Octopus, Spiderman, Rhino, Sasquatch, U-Foes, The entire inhabitants of Middletown, etc. All of these people exposed to different kinds of radiation were each effected differently and its been explained many times over that their unique powers are due to their unique genotype.

I will reiterate, X-4 did not do a good job at staying consistent with what is cannon.

Originally posted by demigawd
Sue didn't beat Emma to the draw. I completely believe that Sue's thought processes are as fast as Emma's. Therefore if Emma has no intention of hurting Sue and Sue wants to take out Emma, by the time Emma is alerted to Sue's intention, Sue could take Emma out. I don't dispute that at all. However, that's not really quickdraw, is it?

Originally posted by demigawd
It would pretty much be:

Emma: blah blah blah, we should take a hard line against blah blah
Sue's thoughts: I don't like her tone, I'm gonna put her down now
Emma's telepathy: *alert* Sue is planning to attack
Emma: Are you kidding m...*WHAM*

I dont know what this is or what is has to do with what ACTUALLY happned in the comic book. I guess its one way the fight could possibly go in ur head...but thats not very comforting considering Wolverine 8888 could make an argument (that would seem feasable enough to him) for wolverine to beat Sentry.

Originally posted by demigawd
That's absolutely feasible and likely what happened. Emma isn't immune to sneak attacks, but that proves absolutely nothing about Sue's ability to take down a prepared Emma.

Prepared as in prep? so u realize in this fight Emma wouldnt be able to sneak attack Sue with TP either? Then it would still be a short fight where Sue would utterly destroy her.

Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, so now IW is the Green Lantern? I don't buy it. I've been reading FF since the Heroes Reborn reboot and she's shown no such ability. I've seen her create fields of different shapes and sizes. She's made swords out of it, and bo staffs out of it, and slides out of it, and she's floated them gently or expelled them with incredible force. But I've never seen a single instance where she's made it soft, or she's blocked light, and she's damn sure never blocked telepathy with it.

So that leaves out perhaps the most important run for IW which was probably the Defalco period...Reed was presummed dead during a good chunk of his run and Sue was the leader. Thing once tried to catch a falling construction worker, Sue pointed out that landing in his rock hard arms would probably be worse than hitting the ground and made a pillow like field. Once in a confrontation with Galactus at ground zero, IW shielded the F4 with a field that blocked out every frequency of the EM spectrum, including light. DeFalco even described how her powers are PSIONIC manipulations of Hyperspace before she shattered the armor of Exitar the Celestial (another issue u probably missed). If u've been reading the F4 since heroes reborn that means u've seen very little...it means u've missed out on most of the better F4 writers like Byrne who also showed IW's powers very dynamically.

Originally posted by demigawd

No, I don't need scans. But I require more information to provide context. You kept bringing up how she blocked Psi-Lord, and whenever I asked for more information, I never got anything until someone else posted it. And, as I expected, it's a pretty clear case of PIS given that she displayed a whole array of powers she doesn't have. Or are you saying she now has the ability to invade people's minds with a "special" forcefield?

Like Nathaniel Richards determined, Sue's powers are fundamentally PSIONIC but her fields are a demonstration of Sue's ability to tap into the dimension of hyperspace. If u had read that comic book, or others concerning Malice, u would know that malice is a type of psionic/psychological issue of IW's that was caused by Psychoman. If her psionic abilities dont resemble those of the mutant telepaths ur so familiar with, it doesnt mean its PIS, its just different from what ur used to in the pages of X-Men. It wasnt a forcefield, but it was a manifestation of her psionic powers which are not limited to forcefields.

<<Too many people's powers are "psionically" based in order to make this conclusion. Jubilee for example also has psionically based powers. But certainly this doesn't mean that she has a telepathic power alone?

Anyone who triggers their powers have psionically based powers, be it iceman or human torch, Magneto or any other energy manipulator. Cyclops certainly would have been if not for the blow to the head that damaged his ability to control his powers. And yet no one other than telepaths shows an inate abilty to BLOCK telepathy by themselves.

By that same token wouldn't that mean that these "psionic based" powers could be blocked by anyone else with "psionic based" powers?>>

that's actually a good and fair point, cresh. i think there's a difference however between iw's powers and these others you mentioned, and it is the nature of the psionic link to the power. you could take your point to the nth degree and say punisher's powers are psionic in nature because his mind tells him where to point the gun. but i don't credit punisher with powers any more 'psionically based' than i do colossus. this from the marvel directory:

<<Sue Richards' psionic ability to manipulate ambient cosmic energy enables her to bend light around her body without distortion, thus rendering herself invisible. The cells of her body produce an unknown form of energy she can mentally project around other people and objects -- rending them invisible, as well. Richards' brain cells produce psionic force she can shape into relatively simple forms - such as rectangle planes, globes, cylinders, cones and domes. Also, she can mentally project protective fields that are highly resistant to concussive forces. And by projecting columns of psionic force beneath her, she can travel through the air. >>

i know well enough how bio's are viewed in this forum. i use it only to illustrate my point regarding the direct link that exists between her power and her mind. the part where it says: "RICHARDS' BRAIN CELLS PRODUCE PSIONIC FORCE" is i think relevant to this debate. as far as the fields themselves coming from hyperspace -- that was only a theory, but even assuming for the moment it is true, she pulls the force out of hyperspace with her mind, fashions them with her mind, and the strength of them is determined by her will/mind. and unlike gl and quasra, she does this SOLELY with her mind, and needs to outside source to generate the energy she wields. outside of the bio, there are NUMEROUS references (in book) to her power as 'psionic'. easy enough to scan some of you don't belive me.

demi: the one thing i dislike about your debate is the fact that you asked for evidence that she can block psionic attacks, i provided it, then you labelled it CIS. let's for a moment ignore the entire section in the last couple scans. in her battle with franklin early on, she was easily blocking his blasts. is THAT CIS? regardless of what happened later? or are you contending that because of what happened later the whole battle is CIS? wynn is right -- the arcs he is referring to really did define her as a character. in having missed those runs, you missed a lot of growth in iw, in terms of character and power.

it was clearly shown she could block a high level psi attack (psi-lord), and she has blocked psychoman's influence -- another mental assault. what more proof do you need?

in the event you still require more, what about this run-in with jean?

jean had just finished wrecking the avengers and ff. yet when she faces off aginst sue (this is AFTER sue's assault, when both are ready and afcing each other)

clearly jean's abilities do not affect her.

(just a quick clarification -- the floatation trick is jean using her powers to bounce the avengers and ff off the ceiling -- an effect that was STILL functioning when jean tried to attack sue)

in this last one, she traps jean who later admits defeat. taking all 3 cases into account -- psilord, psychoman and jean, how much more clear cut does it need to be for you to acknowledge that she can affect tk energy?

Originally posted by leonidas
[B
demi: the one thing i dislike about your debate is the fact that you asked for evidence that she can block psionic attacks, i provided it, then you labelled it CIS. let's for a moment ignore the entire section in the last couple scans. in her battle with franklin early on, she was easily blocking his blasts. is THAT CIS? regardless of what happened later? or are you contending that because of what happened later the whole battle is CIS? wynn is right -- the arcs he is referring to really did define her as a character. in having missed those runs, you missed a lot of growth in iw, in terms of character and power.

it was clearly shown she could block a high level psi attack (psi-lord), and she has blocked psychoman's influence -- another mental assault. what more proof do you need?

in the event you still require more, what about this run-in with jean? [/B]

Exactly, u have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt through multiple scans to make any progress in this argument...otherwise its assumed ur lying? The bias grossly obvious

Originally posted by Wynndar
U make assumptions constantly. Im not sure If u do it on accident because u sincerely dont know what ur talking about or if ur just trying to manipulate information for the sake of ur argument.

THIS coming from YOU? Who will either invent powers for Invisible Woman, or excuse blatant PIS because its casts your favorite team in a more favorable light. I never make assumptions, I just call bullshit as I see it. I'm sorry if my bullshitmeter is focused squarely on you and ringing like a banshee.

Here's a good example of what Im talking about. Yes Shield wanted to replicate the exact conditions of the F4's flight. However they didnt know if the flight would yield identical powers to the F4. And it was revieled that it wasnt an accident AFTER Shield wanted to duplicate it....u've got your chronology mixed up there...

No I didn't. You assumed that I was making a point that I wasn't making. I never said that SHIELD knew that it wasn't an accident - I said SHIELD was trying to re-create the exact conditions of their acquisition of powers and create their own Fantastic Four. You're so obsessed with trying to "get" me that you screwed up my point completely. I'll assume that it was out of carelessness and not incompetence.

So the point stands - there's something innate to THOSE cosmic rays that yielded their powers. The fact that it was revealed to not be an accident at all is consistent with that. Sorry.

They just wanted super powered soldiers. U should also read the commentary in the back of those issues; a lot of fans had trouble with this idea because it was inconsistent in light of the previous examples I made i.e. the U-Foes and Red Ghost.

That's what we call "retcon". But if it was shown in three different sources by three different authors, then you're stuck with it. As opposed to a one off manifestation of telepathic powers that was never shown before and was never mentioned again.

But like I said, This doesnt support ur argument because its never implied that the same "pseudo-elemental" powers described in X4 were going to be granted to the soldiers....so no, its nothing like X-4 in fact, I have no idea where u were going with this...either u did a bad job of reading the comic book or ur just trying to lie to make ur argument look better.

Where am I going with this? You probably got confused in your failed attempts to make valid points, but YOU were making some lame attempt to dismiss X4 because the "nature" of their cosmic powers aren't to your standards. 😂

All I'm doing is proving that the same idea was explored on three occasions that same year. It was most certainly implied that they'd get the same or similar powers. The military could have granted powers with normal cosmic rays otherwise....the fact that they wanted to totally reconstruct the FF's accident to create an "army" of Fantastic Fours shows as much. Read it again. Slowly this time.

There u go again. WTF are u talking about? Their powers were jumping around after the fight with Galactus that removed the F4's powers and Galactus' powers. It wasnt that people were being mutated....its that the specific team member's powers were jumping from person to person in New York; each member of the F4 had to get in contact with someone who was temporarily containing their powers. Again this has nothing to do with your argument...I think u misinterpreted the comics again.

Wrong. You can't contain specific "powers". That device removed the cosmic power from whoever it touched. That's how it took away Galactus' powers. The idea behind that was that there's a unique signature to their cosmic powers that can be passed around. Like to regular humans. Or, in the case of X4, the X-men.

And, if you recall, Reed has lost his powers before, way back in the 180s of FF. He regained them because of an experiment by Doom to re-create - get this - the specific combination of factors that led to THOSE powers.

Your yourself already mentioned She-Thing.

So there have been a number of cases where the exact powers of the FF have been reproduced in others. If that's your reasoning for not liking X4, your reasons are invalid. Either way, X4 is very much in continuity.

So the three references stand. With an fourth one thrown in, because I'm a good sport, and a fifth, because you're so wise.

U might want to go check out the old F4 vs X-Men cross over. Remember what the whole story was about? About Doom planting an entry in Reed's journal describing how he had previous knowledge of the F4's genotypes that suggested they would acquire powers from exposure to cosmic rays? And that he subjected them to the rays on purpose?

Retconned. Who cares?

Im not missing out on this at all. In fact, ur setting urself up for failure. Why bring up other radiation beings? The Hulk, Leader, Wonderman, Doc Samson, Abomination, Madman, Dr Octopus, Spiderman, Rhino, Sasquatch, U-Foes, The entire inhabitants of Middletown, etc. All of these people exposed to different kinds of radiation were each effected differently and its been explained many times over that their unique powers are due to their unique genotype.

OR to the unique kind of cosmic power. Hulk, She-Hulk. Thing/She-Thing. Wonderman/Every other ionic being, Fantastic Four/Everybody who gets exposed to their cosmic radiation.

...Emma lost to Sue.

Except they weren't fighting. You don't lose to somebody you're not fighting. You get assaulted by someone you're not fighting. Emma was assaulted by Sue. No indication whatsoever of how a fight would go.

I dont know what this is or what is has to do with what ACTUALLY happned in the comic book. I guess its one way the fight could possibly go in ur head...but thats not very comforting considering Wolverine 8888 could make an argument (that would seem feasable enough to him) for wolverine to beat Sentry.

Irrelevant statement. Ignored.

Prepared as in prep? so u realize in this fight Emma wouldnt be able to sneak attack Sue with TP either? Then it would still be a short fight where Sue would utterly destroy her.

Except Sue can't block telepathy. And when I mean prepared, I mean they're actually fighting. Not Emma having a conversation with Sue and Sue lashing out, which is precisely what happened in that issue.

So that leaves out perhaps the most important run for IW which was probably the Defalco period...Reed was presummed dead during a good chunk of his run and Sue was the leader. Thing once tried to catch a falling construction worker, Sue pointed out that landing in his rock hard arms would probably be worse than hitting the ground and made a pillow like field. Once in a confrontation with Galactus at ground zero, IW shielded the F4 with a field that blocked out every frequency of the EM spectrum, including light. DeFalco even described how her powers are PSIONIC manipulations of Hyperspace before she shattered the armor of Exitar the Celestial (another issue u probably missed). If u've been reading the F4 since heroes reborn that means u've seen very little...it means u've missed out on most of the better F4 writers like Byrne who also showed IW's powers very dynamically.

Oh, this is a gem. So in other words, all the powers she pulled out of her ass are because of Defalco in a single run? hahaha. PIS. It's the equavalent of Erik Larsen's run on Wolverine, which everybody universally ignores. If these made up powers are ignored by everybody before and since, I don't recognize them.

And I know her powers are PSIONIC manipulations of hyperspace. That's what I said. But PSIONIC is simply another term for mentally controlled use of hyperspace. So what? The fields are still hyperspatial energy. It's not psionic energy. There's simply no way they can block telepathy. In that very issue, Sue is portrayed as a telepath! That's reason enough to ignore the story.

Like Nathaniel Richards determined, Sue's powers are fundamentally PSIONIC but her fields are a demonstration of Sue's ability to tap into the dimension of hyperspace. If u had read that comic book, or others concerning Malice, u would know that malice is a type of psionic/psychological issue of IW's that was caused by Psychoman. If her psionic abilities dont resemble those of the mutant telepaths ur so familiar with, it doesnt mean its PIS, its just different from what ur used to in the pages of X-Men. It wasnt a forcefield, but it was a manifestation of her psionic powers which are not limited to forcefields.

In other words you're saying that Sue is really some kind of super hyperspace telepath - if she chose to be. Am I getting that right?

hahahahaha. Fanboyism at its very finest!

Originally posted by leonidas
that's actually a good and fair point, cresh. i think there's a difference however between iw's powers and these others you mentioned, and it is the nature of the psionic link to the power. you could take your point to the nth degree and say punisher's powers are psionic in nature because his mind tells him where to point the gun. but i don't credit punisher with powers any more 'psionically based' than i do colossus. this from the marvel directory:

<<Sue Richards' psionic ability to manipulate ambient cosmic energy enables her to bend light around her body without distortion, thus rendering herself invisible. The cells of her body produce an unknown form of energy she can mentally project around other people and objects -- rending them invisible, as well. Richards' brain cells produce psionic force she can shape into relatively simple forms - such as rectangle planes, globes, cylinders, cones and domes. Also, she can mentally project protective fields that are highly resistant to concussive forces. And by projecting columns of psionic force beneath her, she can travel through the air. >>

i know well enough how bio's are viewed in this forum. i use it only to illustrate my point regarding the direct link that exists between her power and her mind. the part where it says: "RICHARDS' BRAIN CELLS PRODUCE PSIONIC FORCE" is i think relevant to this debate. as far as the fields themselves coming from hyperspace -- that was only a theory, but even assuming for the moment it is true, she pulls the force out of hyperspace with her mind, fashions them with her mind, and the strength of them is determined by her will/mind. and unlike gl and quasra, she does this SOLELY with her mind, and needs to outside source to generate the energy she wields. outside of the bio, there are NUMEROUS references (in book) to her power as 'psionic'. easy enough to scan some of you don't belive me.

I agree that she psionically manipulates the hyperspatial energies of her field. But that doesn't mean that she's some kind of psi. If you read the bio on any number of X-men, like, say Jubilee, their powers are "psionically controlled". But that still doesn't give them any kind of mental or telepathic resistence. Hell, telekinetics ARE psis, but if they don't have telepathic powers, they can't block telepathic attacks. Sue doesn't have telepathic powers. She has psionic control of hyperspatial energy (which isn't a theory, but was proven in the issue where she destroyed the celestial). And hyperspatial energy is not psionic energy - it can't block telepathy.

demi: the one thing i dislike about your debate is the fact that you asked for evidence that she can block psionic attacks, i provided it, then you labelled it CIS. let's for a moment ignore the entire section in the last couple scans. in her battle with franklin early on, she was easily blocking his blasts. is THAT CIS? regardless of what happened later? or are you contending that because of what happened later the whole battle is CIS? wynn is right -- the arcs he is referring to really did define her as a character. in having missed those runs, you missed a lot of growth in iw, in terms of character and power.

it was clearly shown she could block a high level psi attack (psi-lord), and she has blocked psychoman's influence -- another mental assault. what more proof do you need?

in the event you still require more, what about this run-in with jean?

I'm not calling all evidence CIS. What I'm doing is saying that if there's an issue where people are displaying powers they don't have, then there's something wrong with the issue. If she's showing telepathic abilities, like invading somebody's mind....how can you take that issue seriously?

If somebody said that Spider-Man has the ability to take down CL100 characters and then post him being up Firelord, do we take it seriously or not?

Now, if we post Spider-Man taking out multiple heralds over the course of years, then it's not CIS - it's in their makeup.

Sue only has one instance of blocking telepathy, and in that same issue, she invaded Franklin's mind using a telepathic attack. She's not a telepath!

various scans

I didn't say Sue is incapable of blocking telekinetic blasts, which are quite physical. I said Sue is incapable of blocking telepathic attacks, which are entirely mental. The scans you've shown are just scans I warned everybody about beforehand. Jean was simply using telekinetic attacks on Sue, because she lost her telepathy when she emerged from her cacoon. So while I accept that those scans are valid, I knew about them already, and they don't contribute to your point.

Originally posted by leonidas
in this last one, she traps jean who later admits defeat. taking all 3 cases into account -- psilord, psychoman and jean, how much more clear cut does it need to be for you to acknowledge that she can affect tk energy?

Actually, I agree she CAN affect TK energy, because TK energy is physical, and I think that her shields can block ANY physical attack. Perhaps even magical. But telepathic attacks aren't physical. TK isn't the same as TP. Your scans show mainly the former, but none of the latter, except for that one case where she also showed telepathic powers. And that's SvFL.

and stopping/blocking psychoman's influence? again, there has been a LONG association between iw's power and psionics. psi-lord's inability to read her mind/enter her head until she dropped the shield is another example.

and in the other scans, jean admitted defeat. she didn't even TRY any mind control tricks. that's sort of telling as well.

i don't think the psi-lord battle constitutes cis, (though because malice was present the issues were a bit muddled) i think the parts relevant to this disussion were fine -- ie blocking frank from reading/entering her mind, blocking his psi-bolts (and why wouldn't they count as a mental assault?) however, but i doubt i'll ever convince YOU that it wasn't cis.

If psychoman was responsible for Malace coming out in the first place, then she wasn't entirely succecssful in blocking his influence, was she? What happened in that storyline, by the way?

That Psi-Lord thing is tainted by a number of issues - what role does Psychoman's influence have on her psychic abilities - both offensive and defensive, since she displayed powers she never did before. You yourself admitted that it's too muddy. And you're right - the circumstances are too muddy to conclude as a standard power.

And again - a telepath knows when they're not telepathic anymore - they're headblind. Jean didn't try any mind tricks because she knew that she didn't have her telepathy anymore, because she was headblind from the time she emerged.

So there isn't a long association - there's an association with an issue where she displayed new abilities that weren't shown before or since, and this psychoman issue that I don't know anything about. Now, maybe there's something to the psychoman issue....tell me about it.

This guys not even making sense. Im not even going to waste my time pointing out the faults in his argument...half of it would just consist of me repeating myself. Reed Richards losing his powers and regaining them are an example of someone duplicating the powers of the F4? The cosmic rays changed the structure of his DNA, anytime a memeber of the F4 loses or regains their powers they always come back the same way.

How can one still refute that IW cant block psi attacks? He is in pure fanboy denial.

Why would Jean try any "mind control" tricks when she didn't have TP? As far as IW and Franklin...I've never seen him display the skill that Jean, Xavier, Emma or any other heavy weight TP has.

Jean's TK doesn't have to get THROUGH IW's forcefields. If she's making constructs from psionic energy, then that means that the constructs are solid to a degree, much like most TK shields. If that's the case, why can't Jean apply force? Why can't she move the field itself? Depending on where the fight takes place, she should also be able to manipulate what's under the field.

Wait a minute...I just looked it up. Psychoman isn't a telepath. He possesses as device that produces rays that affect someone's emotions and mental state. OF COURSE Sue can block it - it's simply radiation. It's a physical attack that affects your mental state. It's not a telepathic attack. C'mon, now.

HAHAHAHA...."I just looked it up"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]NEW TEAM

X-men:

Classic Rogue(Ms Marvel powers)
Storm
Current Psylocke
Cyclops

Vs

F4 [/B]

Again, this is just between IW and Psylocke now. And being quite the extremely powerful telekinetic that she is, I believe that she can actually counteract Sue's forcefields. I'm not saying who's is stronger, just that I believe Psylocke's TK can counter it, only to render both IW's shields and Psylocke's TK useless.

So now we've got a real fight on our hands!

of course u think she can counteract her fields

Originally posted by Wynndar
This guys not even making sense. Im not even going to waste my time pointing out the faults in his argument...half of it would just consist of me repeating myself. Reed Richards losing his powers and regaining them are an example of someone duplicating the powers of the F4? The cosmic rays changed the structure of his DNA, anytime a memeber of the F4 loses or regains their powers they always come back the same way.

How can one still refute that IW cant block psi attacks? He is in pure fanboy denial.

You make a habit out of being wrong. Doom specifically said that it required a combination of circumstances to give Reed back his powers - those same circumstances that create those specific powers (not necessarily requiring a ship, just the factors that existed when the ship reached its point). Doom, behind the scenes, did that. Those same circumstances are what SHIELD tried, but far more literally. Those same circumstances is what give the X-men FF powers. It's all connected. Why you can't see that is beyond me.

As for blocking psi attacks - nothing you've shown has proven it. Psychoman isn't a telepath, the Psi-Lord issue had too many extraneous problems for it to be a clean showing, and Jean wasn't telepathic at the time. That just leaves one showing that even Leon concedes is a bit too muddy.

Sorry boys, the FF still go down via telepathic bolt.

Originally posted by Wynndar
of course u think she can counteract her fields

Of course he does, because he's not a FF fanboy like you are.

Yes, I looked it up. You have a problem with research? Given your poor command of the facts, I think I already know the answer to that.

Originally posted by Wynndar
of course u think she can counteract her fields