On Homosexuality & Religion [Merged]

Originally posted by Nellinator
What hateful thing did I say? I didn't. I do not support the actions of homosexuals. Actions are what determine how we treat another person.

No. Its like hating someone for being black or for breathing. Its just stupid.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Marriage is not a right. If it was every person should have a shot at it, but relationships do not work out like that for everyone. If the Bill of Rights says that marriage is a right then I would say that it needs to be changed. Marriage is a privelege..

Originally posted by http://www.law.umkc.edu
The first state marriage law to be invalidated was Virginia's miscegenation law in Loving v Virginia (1967). Mildred Jeter, a black woman, and Richard Loving, a white man, had been found guilty of violating Virginia's ban on interracial marriages and ordered to leave the state. The Court found Virginia's law to violate the Equal Protection Clause because it invidiously classified on the basis of race, but it also indicated the law would violate the Due Process Clause as an undue interference with 'the fundamental freedom" of marriage.

Similarly, when the Sodomy laws were struck down, opinons written about the regulation can alos be applied to a future decision on same-sex marriage.

Originally posted by Justice Anthony M. Kennedy
When homosexual conduct is made criminal by the law of the state, that declaration in and of itself is an invitation to subject homosexual persons to discrimination both in the public and in the private spheres.

Originally posted by Justice Sandra Day O’Connor
A law branding one class of persons as criminal solely based on the state’s moral disapproval of that class and the conduct associated with that class runs contrary to the values of the Constitution and the Equal Protection Clause, under any standard of review.

Originally posted by Dec. 11, 1912 as a proposed Amendment to the US constitution by the 3rd Session of the 62nd Congress
"That intermarriage between negroes or persons of color and Caucasians or any other character of persons within the United States or any territory under their jurisdiction, is forever prohibited; and the term "negro or person of color," as here employed, shall be held to mean any and all persons of African descent or having any trace of African or negro blood.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Respect and the belief that can be changed are not really related so I'm not sure why you grouped them together. I treat them with respect in that I am not cruel to them, I am polite, and I help them when they ask for it. I treat them as I would anyone else. That is respect. Me believing that they could change has nothing to do with it.

You can't check the rights of a specific group and say you respect them.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
There is no reason to be offended by anyone saying I will pray for you.I will pray for all the gay people in the world.Reather they know it or not.JM

Who is offended? I'm not. Nor am I the one getting upset about being labelled a bigot due to baseless personal dislike of a group.

Anyway I am going to sacrifice some pumpkin scones to my God in the hopes you will open your eyes and see the light. I will do some chanting, light some candles and all that jazz.

Will that make you happy? The fact I would be appealing to a God that is not your own in the hopes he will affect you somehow?

People who say "I will pray for you" fall into to categories:

1st: The Well wishers - basically just another way for saying - I hope you are safe, have a good holiday etc. I pray you are safe, I pray you have a good holiday. Little different' from clutching a rabbits foot.

2nd: The "We want to change you" - Basically they perceive others as imperfect and pray in the hopes their "God" will somehow affect their minds and lead them to change to a more acceptable paradigm- homosexuals, atheists, etc.

How on earth, those people in the second category, does this gel with free will? Isn't it their right to live the life they want? Especially when there is nothing wrong with it except in your eyes? What right to you have to think you should be allowed to appeal to a higher being in the hopes that will lead them to change? Seems rather judgemental.

And what does that make you?You call me names and yet you do not for you?JM

It is not a name - it is a description. As I explained clearly - baseless dislike of a group is an example of bigotry.

What name do you think I should be called? Can you think of one? Bigotry doesn't apply as I am not expressing bigoted opinions. Nor does racist. Nor hypocrite. Or any name that alludes to stupidity because if you don't mind me saying if you called me stupid I would call you a hypocrite.

What hateful thing did I say? I didn't. I do not support the actions of homosexuals. Actions are what determine how we treat another person.

Hmmm. So acts can damn us but not save us. Because God doesn't mind whether people live a good life. It is only if you are in his club. And you can't be in his club unless you meet unfair criteria like "suppress you natural sexuality and forget about the man you live just as much as any man could love a women. God doesn't care about love. Just whether you meet his criteria."

Marriage is not a right. If it was every person should have a shot at it, but relationships do not work out like that for everyone. If the Bill of Rights says that marriage is a right then I would say that it needs to be changed. Marriage is a privelege.

Which makes it ok of course - deny privileges to people that don't meet the criteria. Out of interest - years ago, in more racist times, certain financial and health benefits/rights where denied to those of "inferior blood" - the argument of course that it wasn't a natural right for them to have the same thing as white people. I guess you could say those rights were saying that good health care was... a privilege.

Did the fact it was seen as a privilege make such discrimination right?

Respect and the belief that can be changed are not really related so I'm not sure why you grouped them together. I treat them with respect in that I am not cruel to them, I am polite, and I help them when they ask for it. I treat them as I would anyone else. That is respect. Me believing that they could change has nothing to do with it.

No - you think you are being respectful. What in fact such a situation has one being is condescending, superior and judgemental. And for some that is just as cruel as if one took a whip to them.

What is needed is an open mind. First you need to get over the belief you have a divine duty to impose your view on these people. Your view might be born of the Bible, but that doesn't make it right. The second is the fact that one has to accepting that it might not be wrong and that plenty don't think it wrong. You Biblical belief is not binding. Just as gays don't try and convert you they don't want you to convert them. This means that they don't need help, nor do they want it. Nor do they want you looking at them thinking "These people need help. I will pray that God shows them the error of their ways."

Imperial says everything I want to say... just a lot better.

Originally posted by crazy
Imperial says everything I want to say... just a lot better.

Pfft. He's not THAT good 😛

Originally posted by Alliance
Pfft. He's not THAT good 😛

No. He's better. 😛

🥷

Originally posted by Alliance
🥷

shuriken

🥷

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Hmmm. So acts can damn us but not save us. Because God doesn't mind whether people live a good life. It is only if you are in his club. And you can't be in his club unless you meet unfair criteria like "suppress you natural sexuality and forget about the man you live just as much as any man could love a women. God doesn't care about love. Just whether you meet his criteria."

Which makes it ok of course - deny privileges to people that don't meet the criteria. Out of interest - years ago, in more racist times, certain financial and health benefits/rights where denied to those of "inferior blood" - the argument of course that it wasn't a natural right for them to have the same thing as white people. I guess you could say those rights were saying that good health care was... a privilege.

Did the fact it was seen as a privilege make such discrimination right?

No - you think you are being respectful. What in fact such a situation has one being is condescending, superior and judgemental. And for some that is just as cruel as if one took a whip to them.

What is needed is an open mind. First you need to get over the belief you have a divine duty to impose your view on these people. Your view might be born of the Bible, but that doesn't make it right. The second is the fact that one has to accepting that it might not be wrong and that plenty don't think it wrong. You Biblical belief is not binding. Just as gays don't try and convert you they don't want you to convert them. This means that they don't need help, nor do they want it. Nor do they want you looking at them thinking "These people need help. I will pray that God shows them the error of their ways."

Racism is bigotry. Racism is not based on actions. Views on races on homosexuals are not related.

I can guarantee you that I do not act superior or condescending to gays. I have never actually imposed or even shared my beliefs on the subject with a gay person unless they have asked how I felt about that aspect of their life. The suicide of a lonely gay in my community pushed me over the edge from avoiding gays to treating them everyone else. I have a bisexual friend who considers me the only person not to have judged her in the entire town I came from, which was a small redneck farming community. Even though she knows I disagree with that lifestyle she feels comfortable and respected around me. Heck, she even turned out liking me. I actually many bisexual friends and I have never tried to change them. And if I choose to pray for them, it doesn't hurt them if they don't know.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Racism is bigotry. Racism is not based on actions. Views on races on homosexuals are not related.

Yes they are. Both are forms of bigotry. Just because you can't see one in .03 seconds doens't make the discrimination any different.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I can guarantee you that I do not act superior or condescending to gays. I have never actually imposed or even shared my beliefs on the subject with a gay person unless they have asked how I felt about that aspect of their life. The suicide of a lonely gay in my community pushed me over the edge from avoiding gays to treating them everyone else. I have a bisexual friend who considers me the only person not to have judged her in the entire town I came from, which was a small redneck farming community. Even though she knows I disagree with that lifestyle she feels comfortable and respected around me. Heck, she even turned out liking me. I actually many bisexual friends and I have never tried to change them. And if I choose to pray for them, it doesn't hurt them if they don't know.

This is more pormising...however, do you support the rights of homosexuals, and bisexuals to marry whom they choose?

Originally posted by Alliance
Yes they are. Both are forms of bigotry. Just because you can't see one in .03 seconds doens't make the discrimination any different.

The only thing that racism and homophobia have in common is that they're both forms of resentment. People who hate gays don't do so for the same reason that other people hate Black people.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Are you talking about yourself?jm 😕

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
The only thing that racism and homophobia have in common is that they're both forms of resentment. People who hate gays don't do so for the same reason that other people hate Black people.

Thanks Elis!It is not the same just because someone is againt gays does not mean they are racist and hates black people it has nothering to do with that.jm 🙄

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
The only thing that racism and homophobia have in common is that they're both forms of resentment. People who hate gays don't do so for the same reason that other people hate Black people.

So... what is the main difference between hate of gays and hate of blacks?

Are gay hate crimes somehow motivated differently then color-hate crimes?

Generally I apply racism to hate of racial groups and bigotry to a broader spectrum - but hate of a group for no reason other then prejudice is still hate of a particular group other then prejudice. Definition is different, but links exist.

Thanks Elis!It is not the same just because someone is againt gays does not mean they are racist and hates black people it has nothering to do with that.jm

Um.... I don't think Eis was really on your side there. It wasn't a complement.

And I am not sure how we got onto this - racism, black people and gays? I thought we would debating the correct application of bigotry.

God wants us to love everyone. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 has the greatest description of love that I have ever seen in literature. God cares about love. Sex is not love. Nor is always an expression of love. And yes, acts damn us but they do not save us. If acts could save us we would all be damned anyway because everyone has sinned. That is the whole need for grace.

Who said sex is an expression of love? It can be, but it isn't always. The fact is homosexual men are just as capable of loving one another as a man and women are. It is wrong to deny them something that is neither harmful or wrong. It is wrong also to say "ok, you can love, but no sex." And don't imply that homosexuality is just about sex. It is about attraction - physical and mental. It is just as much about love and/or desire as heterosexuality. Their emotions are no different from heterosexuals.

Yet people don't stop sinning after they are saved. And not all sins should be seen as equal. The Bible could not be applied as either a just or fair legal system on earth, I see no reason why it should apply to the after life. Any system that decides right and wrong based upon a labal a person wears, or being a member of a club is wrong. Any system that ignores a persons intents and acts is wrong. God should judge on things that deserve judging - not on whether a person is the correct Christian or not.

Racism is bigotry. Racism is not based on actions. Views on races on homosexuals are not related.

So essentially it was wrong to deny black people privileges based on skin color but it is right to deny homosexuals privlages based upon there unalterable sexual attraction. And act - you do realise that just not having sex does not stop one being a homosexual... don't you?

Are you thinking "homosexual sex" - there is no such thing. There might be two men together, but the actual act is also active in heterosexual relationships. What exactly is bad about it?

I can guarantee you that I do not act superior or condescending to gays.

That is the point - people often fail to realise how they act.

If a person came up to you, fundamentally sure they are right, and feeling as if they have a moral duty to help you see the light would you like it? They would feel they were doing right, but at some level they are thinking "I am right. I am better. They are faulty and need whatever help I can give."

I have never actually imposed or even shared my beliefs on the subject with a gay person unless they have asked how I felt about that aspect of their life.

Ah... so the fact you feel it in secret makes it alright. You respect gays by... not openly telling them you think their lifestyle is wrong and that you will pray to God in the hope God will help them... what, leave behind their natural sexuality?

The suicide of a lonely gay in my community pushed me over the edge from avoiding gays to treating them everyone else.

Why was he lonely? Would you say the community had judged him? Where they praying for him even as they isolated him? Had they decided his lifestyle was unacceptable? Do you think he would still be alive if people hadn't judged at him, if they had thought "there is nothing wrong with homosexuality - he can be our friend, he can be told it is ok."

And tell me - this poor soul, driven to despair... where do you think his soul is now?

More importantly was there anything wrong about his life? Knowing what you know now you would act differently of course. But do you think he would have wanted to be told his lifestyle was not good? Or do you think what he would have wanted was acceptance as a human being who had nothing to be ashamed about.

And if I choose to pray for them, it doesn't hurt them if they don't know.

You don't like your friends lifestyle but that is in no way judging her. If you pray for them it is ok as they don't know.

I am yet to see anything approaching proof in my studies that indicate judgement of a persons actions and judgement of a person can be truly seperate.

Tell me - do you believe bisexuality and homosexuality is a choice? Not the act, because the act is not the sexual orientation. If believe it is a choice then you accept they are choosing to be sinful which you can't agree with. If you don't believe it is a choice then you are choosing to dislike an unalterable part of them. Judging not having sex doesn't make them straight.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
The only thing that racism and homophobia have in common is that they're both forms of resentment. People who hate gays don't do so for the same reason that other people hate Black people.

YES they do.

In Racism, racists hate people of another minority for a number of these reasons:

1) Thir skin color
2) Their culture
3) The economic threat they pose
4) Thier facial features
5) Blind Ignorance

In Homophobia, homophobics hate gays for a number of these reasons:

1) Personal Disgust
2) Religious bias
3) They dislike "sissiness", they see homosexuality as a perversion of standard masculinity
4) Thier culture
5) The way they look or dress
6) Blind Ignorance

Hate is Hate....it is the SAME HATE, because when you dislike homosexuals based on thier sexual orientation, you are resenting someone for being something that has NOTHING to do with you, and is in no way harming society.

To dislike a MURDERER or RAPIST is NOT bias, because you dislike these types of people due to the fact they they HURT someone....

Homosexuals do not hurt people out of thier sexuality, the way Black people do not hurt people by BEING BLACK....

If you want to discuss the link between racism and homophobia, then please feel free to start a new thread in the appropriate forum.

Originally posted by Storm
If you want to discuss the link between racism and homophobia, then please feel free to start a new thread in the appropriate forum.

That's actually a good idea 🙂

Originally posted by Damien B
I agree with Jackie and support her views about gays its just an immoral way of living and a sick way so call me a bigot to than, alliance and bardock shut the **** up everyone has the right to say what they want when they want freedom of speech so back the hell off her. DMB

My God.....I mean....my God....you have the reading comprehension skills of a three year old (dog)

Copyright VVD

Originally posted by Alliance
This is more pormising...however, do you support the rights of homosexuals, and bisexuals to marry whom they choose?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Yet people don't stop sinning after they are saved. And not all sins should be seen as equal. The Bible could not be applied as either a just or fair legal system on earth, I see no reason why it should apply to the after life. Any system that decides right and wrong based upon a labal a person wears, or being a member of a club is wrong. Any system that ignores a persons intents and acts is wrong. God should judge on things that deserve judging - not on whether a person is the correct Christian or not.

So essentially it was wrong to deny black people privileges based on skin color but it is right to deny homosexuals privlages based upon there unalterable sexual attraction. And act - you do realise that just not having sex does not stop one being a homosexual... don't you?

Are you thinking "homosexual sex" - there is no such thing. There might be two men together, but the actual act is also active in heterosexual relationships. What exactly is bad about it?

That is the point - people often fail to realise how they act.

If a person came up to you, fundamentally sure they are right, and feeling as if they have a moral duty to help you see the light would you like it? They would feel they were doing right, but at some level they are thinking "I am right. I am better. They are faulty and need whatever help I can give."

Ah... so the fact you feel it in secret makes it alright. You respect gays by... not openly telling them you think their lifestyle is wrong and that you will pray to God in the hope God will help them... what, leave behind their natural sexuality?

Why was he lonely? Would you say the community had judged him? Where they praying for him even as they isolated him? Had they decided his lifestyle was unacceptable? Do you think he would still be alive if people hadn't judged at him, if they had thought "there is nothing wrong with homosexuality - he can be our friend, he can be told it is ok."

And tell me - this poor soul, driven to despair... where do you think his soul is now?

More importantly was there anything wrong about his life? Knowing what you know now you would act differently of course. But do you think he would have wanted to be told his lifestyle was not good? Or do you think what he would have wanted was acceptance as a human being who had nothing to be ashamed about.

You don't like your friends lifestyle but that is in no way judging her. If you pray for them it is ok as they don't know.

I am yet to see anything approaching proof in my studies that indicate judgement of a persons actions and judgement of a person can be truly seperate.

Tell me - do you believe bisexuality and homosexuality is a choice? Not the act, because the act is not the sexual orientation. If believe it is a choice then you accept they are choosing to be sinful which you can't agree with. If you don't believe it is a choice then you are choosing to dislike an unalterable part of them. Judging not having sex doesn't make them straight.

I believe that I am right, this much is true, in believing that homosexuality is a sin. However, I do not think I am better for "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Everyone needs grace.

Yes, because homosexuality is not truly natural.

He was lonely because I grew up in a backwater rural town that was not very accepting. He was also the only homosexual in a school of 1200. He was bullied. That said, he was three years older than me so I never knew him. But, when I heard the story I vowed that I would never again treat homosexuals with the indignity he faced. He would still be alive if people had treated him with respect even if they didn't agree with his sexual orientation.

He is likely in hell. However, I do not know the whole story. Only God does, therefore, only God can be an accurate and just judge.

My friend knows that I disagree with her lifestyle. Yet, she told me straight to my face that I'm one of the few people she knows does not judge her and treats the same as I would if she were heterosexual.

I believe that homosexuality is a choice. All credible evidence I have seen has supported this view. That said, I do believe that the decision is strongly affected by environment and even by genetics. I believe that afeminate behavior is partially genetic and can make one more likely to become homosexual. However, homosexuality is not determined at birth. Also, I have seen and know people who have overcome homosexuality through prayer and self-discipline. Homosexuality is not irreversible, however, one needs to want to change to change.