Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
True to a degree, but the origin of much of the current anti-homosexual opinion can often be traced to religious sources - primarily Christian or Islamic. It is true that even without religion homosexuals would likely find bias from sections of society, but I strongly suspect the power of the anti-homosexual lobby would be vastly diminished if religion started supporting it.It is hardly a coincidence that even on these forums the majority of those who have expressed anti-homosexual opinions usually list the Bible as one of the sources for their world view on the subject. In fact I can remember virtually no member who, when asked to justify their stance, hasn't listed their religion as part of their argument - the classic "it is a sin."
It is also worth noting that past societies religions were far more accepting of homosexuality, and even had mythological figures who had homosexual or bisexual tendencies. Religion is most certainly not the only source of homosexual bias, however it remain one of the most potent ones. Moves by members of Christian factions are highly promising. Almost every large mainstream Christian group has a section of priests and laymen advocating the rescinding of the whole "homosexuality is a sin" concept, and it is a growing movement. If and when it succeeds it will be interesting to see how the vocal anti-homosexual people respond. For those who use religion as the basis of their arguments. Will they suddenly be able to accept homosexuality because it is no longer a sin? Probably not, since it is a personal thing. Religion can merely offer them a way to legitimize their arguments.
Homophobia of today is part of our social structure, which unfortumately we built.
Many other who do not have a religion - the classic argument is not really''its a sin'' but more 'it's an illness'' or ''these people will ruin our society'' and aaall other stupid baseless arguments.
Second, here is something interesting - there is nowhere in the Bible, or the Qur'an that the word ''homosexuality'' is used. Fact.
Even the Torah, from which the stoning of homosexuals was copied from, did not contain word ''homosexual'', soanything that happened from then on was a DIRECT influence of society.
''God said homosexuals are an abomination'' is actually just a stupid argument used by already homophobic people to uphold their belief, because there is no such word a mention in any of the Books.
If you have no religion, you will still have homophobia. As big as it is today.
Homophobia is a built in system into our social structure.
Imagine a wealthy couple, non religious, lots of money and all the best education. Their son tells them he is gay, do you think they will be all accepting?
Unlikely. It is not about how they feel about homosexuals, but more what will everyone else say.
There are also a lot of groups of gay people which are religious such as -
God is Love!
Evangelical Fellowship for Lesbian and Gay Christians
The Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement (LGCM)
GayChristian.net
etc etc etc
There is also an Muslims Gay and Lesbian Movement....etc.
And as you already mentioned, numerous movements within Christian community.
So this idea regarding this thread of ''religion and homosexualty''as being two mutually exclusive things, are just wrong. It is far more complex than that.
Religion is used by homophobic people who happen to also be religious, in order to justify their homophobia, more than it actually being the cause of their homophobia. I recall those people tend to cling to the one line in Leviticus.
Although I suppose one could argue that there are commonalities between characteristics that may make some people inclined to follow certain religious, and characteristics that may make some people inclined to hold prejudices.
Although those may be in a minority. I truly doubt anyone would enter a religion because it is full of prejudice and hate.
Nor do I veiw someone taking up a religion because it has hateful andprejudicelike characteristics, just because it agrees with them.
There are plenty of groups which do not require worship, but uphold hateful ideas-
White nationalist front, skinnheads, female skinheads, Nazi party, Deaths Head, 88, Black Separatists...etc etc etc...
You know, I was about to say how, though I detest a good portion of the homosexual subculture, I could respect people like Dan Savage (from what little of his writing I've read).
Then I read part of his "Savage Love" column and realized that he ought to be proud of himself for being a vitriolic straw man out of which many "God hates ****" signs are made.
Sometimes I am glad that some people aren't saved.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Religion is used by homophobic people who happen to also be religious, in order to justify their homophobia, more than it actually being the cause of their homophobia. I recall those people tend to cling to the one line in Leviticus.
👆 EXACTLY
It is much easier to argue that your religion states homosexuality is wrong, then to admit that you think homosexuals are disgusting. In the mind of many homophobes, religion becomes thier aliby, and they use that to sugar coat thier biases.
However, for other religious people whose bigotry is so enormous they can't contain it, not only do they argue that Homosexuality is a sin, but they ALSO ADMIT the true reasons behind thier bigotry: They think homosexuality is disgusting, sick, wrong, twisted, makes them wanna vomit, etc.
I love when Hatred is so great that it can no longer disguise itself as Love 😆
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
👆 [b]EXACTLYIt is much easier to argue that your religion states homosexuality is wrong, then to admit that you think homosexuals are disgusting. In the mind of many homophobes, religion becomes thier aliby, and they use that to sugar coat thier biases.
However, for other religious people whose bigotry is so enormous they can't contain it, not only do they argue that Homosexuality is a sin, but they ALSO ADMIT the true reasons behind thier bigotry: They think homosexuality is disgusting, sick, wrong, twisted, makes them wanna vomit, etc.
I love when Hatred is so great that it can no longer disguise itself as Love 😆 [/B]
Originally posted by Nellinator
But this is not true in my case. I believe it is wrong without wanting to vomit etc.
I didn't mention you. I was talking about a certain someone *COUGH* JM * COUGH*
I do not mean to clump people all together, but just understand I make generalizations for the sake of simplicity. I do not truly beleive in absolute generalizations nor do I intentionally try to enforce them.
I know you think Homosexuality is wrong, but that is only because of your Faith. You have no other basis to go on then that.
I think fellow Christian Feceman already argued why Homosexuality is NOT really a sin, something about a Biblical mistranslation...i dunno, ask him about it.
Originally posted by FeceMan
You know, I was about to say how, though I detest a good portion of the homosexual subculture,
SO DO I!
Superficiality, Racism, and Judgement happen to be a common crime that many of the Gay Men I have met are guilty of. To me, they are no better than Christian hypocrits.
I hate how Homosexual Men and Women will protest bigotry, say how wrong discrimination is, but then at the nice little Gay Clubs I go to with my freinds, the amount of Racism and Superficial judgmentalism that occurs is soooo fkn sickening ! I'm not even joking.
It's so hypocritical !
I also dislike the stereotype that Gay Media feeds everyone. Like we are ALL that fkn feminine....now everyone thinks they can tell whose gay and whose not...its soo annoying.
When people meet me, I always have to "surprise" them by telling them im bisexual after they try to make me laugh with homophobic jokes. Then they go "oh i had nooo idea ...im so sorry...i thought you were straight, cuz u dont ACT GAY
Sometimes I get sick and tired of speaking for and defending a minority of people who collectively make little effort to positively represent themselves and eachother !
Originally posted by FeceMan
I was more thinking of wanton sexual intercourse, but, hey, racism's bad, too.Correct me if I am incorrect, but much of the homosexual subculture seems to partake in any number of sexual perversions on a frequent basis. (Public fornication, orgies, being the main ones.)
There's no such thing as homosexual "culture". More over it's a "culture" of a specific subtext of gay men and women.
Gay people enspouses all races, creeds, and nationalities. No gay man has a similar cultural linkage to another gay man except for the simple fact that they both like penises.
The "culture" you speak of is a "culture" of a small (and loud) group of homosexuals with similar likes.
There's no such thing as "gay" culture in reality any more than there is a "brown eyed culture".
Originally posted by Nellinator
But this is not true in my case. I believe it is wrong without wanting to vomit etc.
Not wanting to vomit is no excuse. You still profess that homosexuals are a burden of society and a correctable negative. And what's more, is that people like yourself welcome the rapture, despite it meaning the wholesale eternal damnation of your fellow man. How unselfish of you.
Originally posted by Nellinator
I have before. Urizen and I seem to understand each other on this matter now and I was just trying to remind him not to group people together.
When people willingly group themselves in one corner, there is no room for debate. You support those who want to condemn and damn homosexuals. And for that, you deserve what you get from the god you profess.
Originally posted by FeceMan
Correct me if I am incorrect, but much of the homosexual subculture seems to partake in any number of sexual perversions on a frequent basis. (Public fornication, orgies, being the main ones.)
Aside from this being an apparent joke, you don't realize how much of the "legitimate populace" you speak for by saying such an inane comment. Yes, I have anal sex with other men. But that doesn't change anything. Who I stick my dick in has nothing to do with whom I'm sticking my dick in, much less which orafice I'm sticking it in. I could easily call into question the stance taken by many right wingers, whose leaders have been found to be boy-butt loving queers, but I'd rather talk about reality. We're just the same as you, and we aren't going anywhere.
Originally posted by Draco69
There's no such thing as homosexual "culture". More over it's a "culture" of a specific subtext of gay men and women.Gay people enspouses all races, creeds, and nationalities. No gay man has a similar cultural linkage to another gay man except for the simple fact that they both like penises.
The "culture" you speak of is a "culture" of a small (and loud) group of homosexuals with similar likes.
There's no such thing as "gay" culture in reality any more than there is a "brown eyed culture".
exactly. There is no "subculture". There are straight people and gay people enjoying the same culture. Because believe it or not, a cultures gay people are the exact same as their straight people. Same parents, same cartoons, same XBox games.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Not wanting to vomit is no excuse. You still profess that homosexuals are a burden of society and a correctable negative. And what's more, is that people like yourself welcome the rapture, despite it meaning the wholesale eternal damnation of your fellow man. How unselfish of you.When people willingly group themselves in one corner, there is no room for debate. You support those who want to condemn and damn homosexuals. And for that, you deserve what you get from the god you profess.
Who have I supported? No one. When I have I called for the condemnation of homosexuals? Never. I don't even consider homosexuals a group per se because it is behavior that defines them, not a physical trait. Liars, homosexuals, adulterers, gossipers, etc. are not groups of people, they are sinners. Some of them I am guilty of and therefore, I have no authority to condemn you. When you educate yourself on my real stance on the issue, speak to me again.
Originally posted by FeceMan
I was more thinking of wanton sexual intercourse, but, hey, racism's bad, too.
There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with wanton sexual intercourse as long as it is mutually understood that sex is the only goal.
Promiscuity exists in Straight people more so than in Gay people, for the simple fact that more heterosexuals exist. So I guess I should say, "Heterosexuals are immoral because so many of them sleep around" 🙄
Promiscuity is only wrong when one person in the sexual encounter beleives that there is something more than sex occuring. When feelings get hurt, then and ONLY then is promiscuity an immoral thing.
Originally posted by FeceMan
Correct me if I am incorrect, but much of the homosexual subculture seems to partake in any number of sexual perversions on a frequent basis. (Public fornication, orgies, being the main ones.)
That's an unfair stereotype, and exactly what I was discussing in my LAST POST. Because of Gay Media, because of shows like "Queer as Folk" and all those Logo/Here/MTV Gay Rights/Gay "culture" promotional showings, now all people, including yourself, beleive that we Gay and/or Bisexual Men and Women part take in outrageous sexual acts.
What strikes me as even more hilarious is how you assume that Gay people are somehow more sexually diverse than Straight people.
Where the hell have you been? Hasn't American Pie taught you a lesson ? 😆
Heterosexuals get involved in things like public fornication, orgies, porn, etc. far more than Homosexuals do.
Go to any standard porn site, and I promise you there are FAR MORE heterosexist porn sites than homosexual porn sites.
Originally posted by Nellinator
The rapture does not mean mankind's damnation. When you are no longer ignorant on the subject I would happy to discuss why I am pro-rapture, however, you apparently have no idea about what is supposed to happen so I will ignore this.Who have I supported? No one. When I have I called for the condemnation of homosexuals? Never. I don't even consider homosexuals a group per se because it is behavior that defines them, not a physical trait. Liars, homosexuals, adulterers, gossipers, etc. are not groups of people, they are sinners. Some of them I am guilty of and therefore, I have no authority to condemn you. When you educate yourself on my real stance on the issue, speak to me again.
Oh, don't play stupid games. The rapture is the ascention into heaven of the good christian sheep. POOF! they vanish, leaving their clothes on the ground where they once stood, having been raptured up into heaven to live peaceful happy lives, eating philadelphia creame cheese with the angels in the clouds while the "non-descript, ungrouped sinners who aren't real groups...just sinners" are left behind to endure the 7 year period of tribulation. Don't tell me that I don't know what the rapture is, I've only been listening to the sheep bah and coo over it my whole life.
In one breath you say you don't condemn homosexuals, and in the next you lump them in with lairs, adulterers, gossipers and "etc". Keep your crap to yourself.
You don't support anyone? You support yourself, otherwise you wouldn't babble so much. It's the undisputed, inexcuseable selfishness that is built in to your religion. You want teh rapture to happen so you can float up to heaven and live in bliss while the rest of humanity...you know, "the stupid, ungroupable sinners"...can endure the torture of the next seven years under the anti-christ's rule. It's selfish stupidity. You want to "save" others from themselves so you can be one of those sacred few that get to float up to heaven. The great stupidity of your religion is that you tell yourself over and over that the message you preach is to save the people you preach at, but it's really to save your own selfish ass. There are good christians out there, just as there are good non-christians. But you aren't one of them.
You comfort yourself by telling others who argue your "points" that they know nothing about what you speak, but I'm willing to bet that the people you condemn know more about your own god than you do. 13 years of catholic school, on top of listening to members of my own family and friends spew the same garbage you spew is kind of hard to ignore. And just like me, you can choose to look at the hypocrisy of your religion. You can figure out that no one has the market cornered on truth and reality.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Oh, don't play stupid games. The rapture is the ascention into heaven of the good christian sheep. POOF! they vanish, leaving their clothes on the ground where they once stood, having been raptured up into heaven to live peaceful happy lives, eating philadelphia creame cheese with the angels in the clouds while the "non-descript, ungrouped sinners who aren't real groups...just sinners" are left behind to endure the 7 year period of tribulation. Don't tell me that I don't know what the rapture is, I've only been listening to the sheep bah and coo over it my whole life.In one breath you say you don't condemn homosexuals, and in the next you lump them in with lairs, adulterers, gossipers and "etc". Keep your crap to yourself.
You don't support anyone? You support yourself, otherwise you wouldn't babble so much. It's the undisputed, inexcuseable selfishness that is built in to your religion. You want teh rapture to happen so you can float up to heaven and live in bliss while the rest of humanity...you know, "the stupid, ungroupable sinners"...can endure the torture of the next seven years under the anti-christ's rule. It's selfish stupidity. You want to "save" others from themselves so you can be one of those sacred few that get to float up to heaven. The great stupidity of your religion is that you tell yourself over and over that the message you preach is to save the people you preach at, but it's really to save your own selfish ass. There are good christians out there, just as there are good non-christians. But you aren't one of them.
You comfort yourself by telling others who argue your "points" that they know nothing about what you speak, but I'm willing to bet that the people you condemn know more about your own god than you do. 13 years of catholic school, on top of listening to members of my own family and friends spew the same garbage you spew is kind of hard to ignore. And just like me, you can choose to look at the hypocrisy of your religion. You can figure out that no one has the market cornered on truth and reality.