On Homosexuality & Religion [Merged]

Originally posted by Nellinator
I can understand that.

Good 👆

Originally posted by Nellinator
If you earnestly prayed that, I believe that God would change things for you. Even if it did not necessarily mean changing your sexuality. The idea of God being all forgiving is that he will forgive anyone who asks.

But I did..for years. God changed nothing....do you think its possible at all, that our creator WANTS me to be Gay ? For whatever reason....or are you so confined to the Bible and its literal translations, that you cannot possibly fathom that as a probability ?

Originally posted by Nellinator
I actually made a typo leading to your interpretation. That was supposed to be "does not describe my beliefs well". I never made that claim. Sorry about that misunderstanding 😉 That said, I do believe that love in lacking in the world. I know you know that that is the main message I preach here.

My mistake, I read it fast and didn't figure you may have meant something else...

Yes, I do beleive that Love is severely lacking in the world. But despite Christian efforts, it seems Christianity has managed to spread as much hate as it has love.....

However, despite admiring your message of Love, I don't see it as pure Love. Your love is still infected with religious biases, atleast from my perspective.

Love should NOT be confined to any idealogy...it should be free to form, shape, and grow itself without interference.

Originally posted by Nellinator
When we discuss morals I do not preach. Love, whether from Christians or not is my goal. Before the apostle John died he said to have continually muttered "Love one another". When he was asked why he always said that, he responded "because if it is all we do, it is enough". Hatred and anger is everywhere and that is what I try to combat.

Interesting... I am curious about something:

Would you rather have two men slaughter each other, or have sex with each other ?

If you're true goal is to spread LOVE, then I don't expect you to have any hesitations with this question.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Free will has a lot to do with it. If someone wants to change, I am obligated to help.

If someone truly wants to change, you should have them evaluate WHY first....if thier desire to change is due to a result of social stigma and fear of being bullied, do you truly feel it ethical to change them and have them submit to thier fears just for the sake of conformity ?

I'm fine with the promotion of changing one's sexual orientation of the man or woman always dreamed of living the classic life of having thier own children, living with a husband or wife, with the picket fence, watever, and thier homosexuality gets in the way....atleast that desire is one's own...

But to change someone because they are afraid to be who they are, or for the sake of conformity, that's unethical in my opinion.

Seeing as how you have no problem changing one's sexual preference, you should ALSO have no problem with a person who wants to change thier gender.

If a transexual wanted your help changing thier sex, would you do what you can to help? If not, then you're a hypocrite.

I'll be sure to stick around and give support.

tomcat

Sorry for my absence. The forum is still here though.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But I did..for years. God changed nothing....do you think its possible at all, that our creator WANTS me to be Gay ? For whatever reason....or are you so confined to the Bible and its literal translations, that you cannot possibly fathom that as a probability ?

Interesting... I am curious about something:
Would you rather have two men slaughter each other, or have sex with each other ?
If you're true goal is to spread LOVE, then I don't expect you to have any hesitations with this question.

If someone truly wants to change, you should have them evaluate [b]WHY first....if thier desire to change is due to a result of social stigma and fear of being bullied, do you truly feel it ethical to change them and have them submit to thier fears just for the sake of conformity ?
I'm fine with the promotion of changing one's sexual orientation of the man or woman always dreamed of living the classic life of having thier own children, living with a husband or wife, with the picket fence, watever, and thier homosexuality gets in the way....atleast that desire is one's own...
But to change someone because they are afraid to be who they are, or for the sake of conformity, that's unethical in my opinion.
Seeing as how you have no problem changing one's sexual preference, you should ALSO have no problem with a person who wants to change thier gender.
If a transexual wanted your help changing thier sex, would you do what you can to help? If not, then you're a hypocrite. [/B]

Tricky question. Obviously a trap intended to be lose-lose for me, but I would say sex. Why? Because sex won't kill you and remove hope (which I find more and more important every day) and death will.

Evaluation of motivation always comes before the action plan. The best interests must also come into consideration before a treatment can be declared. Changing gender is not good in my eyes. Admittedly, I am not as up to speed in the matter as I wish I was. That said, psychology doesn't change one's gender so its not really applicable to me.

Inocorrect.

First. Gender is different from sex. That should be obvious. Gender is a construct. Sex is biological. People's genders can have dramatic flux throughout thier life. Sex cannot, even with superficial medical intervention.

Second. If you always have to cop out, where is the line between a rational limit of understanding and lack of content.

Third. If sex is better than death, why does the bible suggest we put gays to death? Apparently you and your god do not agree. Is that your problem? or your gods?

What!! Nobody thought my last post was intriguing ???????.. 😕

I think argument took over.

Originally posted by Alliance
Inocorrect.

First. Gender is different from sex. That should be obvious. Gender is a construct. Sex is biological. People's genders can have dramatic flux throughout thier life. Sex cannot, even with superficial medical intervention.

Second. If you always have to cop out, where is the line between a rational limit of understanding and lack of content.

Third. If sex is better than death, why does the bible suggest we put gays to death? Apparently you and your god do not agree. Is that your problem? or your gods?

I rarely use cop phrases such as that. However, since I combined it with some rational its not entirely untrue. God is not entirely within my understanding. I am human, the flesh is weak, and I fall short of the glory of God. Therefore I cannot ever fully comprehend God.

The law changed you know. New covenant in Jesus thing. Jesus changed a few things. He declared no unclean food and changed the punishment for moral sins. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone sort of eliminates the whole death suggestion thing in modern days.

Yeah, or you can simply interpret it as you wish. There are plenty of other people who can create valid biblical arguments that can't be denied.

If you think God changed his mind, then god was wrong and is fallible. Are you suggesting that your god is fallible?

He never changed His mind. It was a prophecied and planned change. I believe that God knew the best course of action because of omnipotence. Furthermore, the Law prepared the way for Jesus.

No, that doesnt work.

Why would God make something law, only to change it? That's betraying man.

How did killing homosexuals pave the way for Jesus, and why does the NT still condemn homosexuals?

It does work. You just can't see it or refuse to see it.
People were different so God made laws that would pave the way for Jesus when they became ready.
Also, the OT law was only binding on those who willingly submitted themselves to it, so anyone committing homosexual acts was aware of the consequences. They always had the option of leaving, something many people did. Homosexuals were rarely killed in the OT because Israel was constantly following pagan beliefs.
The NT leaves homosexuality as a sin because Jesus never removed it from its status as sin.

Originally posted by Alliance
No, that doesnt work.

Why would God make something law, only to change it? That's betraying man.

How did killing homosexuals pave the way for Jesus, and why does the NT still condemn homosexuals?

* where in the Bible does anyone condemn homosexuals? 😕

Originally posted by peejayd
* where in the Bible does anyone condemn homosexuals? 😕

"A man shall not layeth with a man like he would layeth with a woman...for that is an abomination and punishable by death"

Originally posted by peejayd
* where in the Bible does anyone condemn homosexuals? 😕

Romans 1 is another nice place to start.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Here come the cop out...
God works in mysterious ways. Therefore, possibility always exists. I would be inclined to believe that it is not the intended end result, but rather a learning experience if it is indeed His current intent.

😆

I love you bro. You go from arguing science to arguing philosophy, "God works in mysterious ways". Like Regret, you combine a little bit of Fact, and a lot of Fiction to suit your own perceptions. Hey, you have that right, but at least have the guts to ADMIT it....

Originally posted by Nellinator
Tricky question. Obviously a trap intended to be lose-lose for me, but I would say sex. Why? Because sex won't kill you and remove hope (which I find more and more important every day) and death will.

Thank God

I thought you were gonna do a JIA and say "Both sins are equally abominable"

Originally posted by Nellinator
Evaluation of motivation always comes before the action plan. The best interests must also come into consideration before a treatment can be declared. Changing gender is not good in my eyes. Admittedly, I am not as up to speed in the matter as I wish I was. That said, psychology doesn't change one's gender so its not really applicable to me.

One doesn't NEED to change thier sex ? One doesn't NEED to change thier sexual preference EITHER....

That's very hypocritical Nell....you are perfectly fine with helping a Gay person change to becoming Straight, but you are against helping a man become a woman or helping a woman become a man ?

Well, since psychology does not change one's gender (sex), then let me ask you this:

If by some wierd chance, a Straight man wants to "become" Gay, would you help him ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I love you bro. You go from arguing science to arguing philosophy, "God works in mysterious ways".

Yeah. It takes a big bite out of credibility doesn't it.

I would say "Grow balls and admit you don't know."

Originally posted by Alliance
Yeah. It takes a big bite out of credibility doesn't it.

I would say "Grow balls and admit you don't know."

😆

Listen, I like Nellinator though. He is a lot more rational than many Christians on these forums. But he still does not recognize his biases. He still sees the Bible as absolute, undeniable truth. He has a sentimental attachment to it, which does not allow him to wondor off into other realms of possibility.

Once he realizes that the Bible, that Christianity, like all religions, is just a human beleif system, he will be free from those mental confinements.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I love you bro. You go from arguing science to arguing philosophy, "God works in mysterious ways". Like Regret, you combine a little bit of Fact, and a lot of Fiction to suit your own perceptions. Hey, you have that right, but at least have the guts to ADMIT it....

That's very hypocritical Nell....you are perfectly fine with helping a Gay person change to becoming Straight, but you are against helping a man become a woman or helping a woman become a man ?
Well, since psychology does not change one's gender (sex), then let me ask you this:
If by some wierd chance, a Straight man wants to "become" Gay, would you help him ?

Like you said earlier, motivations need to be evaluated first. I have yet to hear a valid motivation for sex change, so I'm not sure my position is hypocritical.
I won't lie. I would be morally conflicted and deny my services. Of ocurse, I'm have never personally tried reparative therapy, but might recommend him elsewhere.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Like you said earlier, motivations need to be evaluated first. I have yet to hear a valid motivation for sex change, so I'm not sure my position is hypocritical.
I won't lie. I would be morally conflicted and deny my services. Of ocurse, I'm have never personally tried reparative therapy, but might recommend him elsewhere.

1) Define Valid

2) That's hypcritical..you are willing to change a man from straight to gay, but not from gay to straight. That's direct discrimination. If a straight man truly wants to be gay, and you refuse to help him, then you are a huge hypocrite for claiming that you aim to help those who want it.....

1) A good reason why they need to change to fulfill their lives, be happy, and be successful. I have never encountered a circumstance where sex change has been the solution. And the question has actually come up before and was resolved quite tidily.
2) Help those who need it actually. If a man needed to become gay I might consider it. I cannot think of any situation where this would be pertinent though.