Originally posted by NellinatorI'd imagine the same people who state they've changed their sexuality in Spitzer's study would show no significant difference in fMRI activity, in response to sexual arousal stimuli, who maintain they're homosexual.
And I agree with your last statement xmarksthespot. The more objective we can be the better in most cases. Empiricial evidence in the matter is worth seeking.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The fact that there is EVEN a "struggle" with one's sexual identity means a clear choice is not involved. Do you agree or disagree?It can also be changed ON ITS OWN...people have been known to have thier sexual preferences shifted...but most of the time, it wasn't voluntary. It happens due to factors that are not determined at this time.
When they ask for your help, yes.
Although it is much more helpful and much less time staking to get a Gay person to ACCEPT who he or she is, rather than to encourage the bullshit beleif that there is something wrong with them.
But then agian....I support a person's decision to get plastic surgery if they are truly unhappy with thier physical appearance. So why wouldn't I support Reparative Therapy if the person truly wants to change thier sexual identity ?
It has to go both ways, I am sure you must support plastic surgery as a means of physical change as well ✅
Somehow I fear this "I am just trying to help homosexuals who want to change" crusade will slowly transform into a "WE HAVE THE CURE FOR HOMOSEXUALITY ! ALL HOMOS MUST REPORT FOR MANDITORY TREATMENT"
Actually getting a homosexual to accept who they are can be used effectively for reparitive therapy. However, I do not believe that sexuality should ever be considered a part of one's identity. It should be seperate. Heterosexuality is not part of my personal identity, however, I am aware that this could be purely based on the fact that it does not create issues for me.
I am not completely against plastic surgery, but I do think its a bit pointless.
Your fears may be well grounded. I, however, am not in the business of encroaching on others' free wills. If they do not want to change that is their choice.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'd imagine the same people who state they've changed their sexuality in Spitzer's study would show no significant difference in fMRI activity, in response to sexual arousal stimuli, who maintain they're homosexual.
Originally posted by FeceMan
Xmarksthespot, should I explain to him what I meant by "liberal" or shall we all smile, shake our heads sadly, and have a good chuckle at his expense over a cup of tea with a side of crumpets?
Originally posted by Nellinator
I think we might have an understanding here. Many choices we make are not clear. Perhaps choice is not the best word for this situation, but when one is presented with the option of changing they can choose not too. This is more of the meaning of homosexuality is a choice. I have never thought it was a "I want to be friggin' gay cuz its cool" sorta thing.Actually getting a homosexual to accept who they are can be used effectively for reparitive therapy. However, I do not believe that sexuality should ever be considered a part of one's identity. It should be seperate. Heterosexuality is not part of my personal identity, however, I am aware that this could be purely based on the fact that it does not create issues for me.
I am not completely against plastic surgery, but I do think its a bit pointless.
Your fears may be well grounded. I, however, am not in the business of encroaching on others' free wills. If they do not want to change that is their choice.
Plastic Surgery is as pointless as Sexual Reparative Therapy...you are changing something that DOES NOT need to be changed. But if that's what the person wants, I am not going to stop them.
Heterosexuality is as much as part of your identity as your religion is. The are all aspects that make you who you are.
Imagine living in a world where people tell you who you are supposed to have sex with. And then they treat you like crap, condemn you, or claim you will suffer an eternity of torture for enacting your natural and harmless sexual desires....
Try living that reality, and then tell me I have no right to backlash or see your agenda as absurd and invasive....
Originally posted by FeceManTea and crumpets are for the damned dirty British. But I've got some time to spare a smile and shake. Maybe a chuckle.
Xmarksthespot, should I explain to him what I meant by "liberal" or shall we all smile, shake our heads sadly, and have a good chuckle at his expense over a cup of tea with a side of crumpets?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Heterosexuality is as much as part of your identity as your religion is. The are all aspects that make you who you are.Imagine living in a world where people tell you who you are supposed to have sex with. And then they treat you like crap, condemn you, or claim you will suffer an eternity of torture for enacting your natural and harmless sexual desires....
Try living that reality, and then tell me I have no right to backlash or see your agenda as absurd and invasive....
I can imagine. You know I've made mistakes that have caused condemnation from family and friends myself. You should know that I have no agenda. If I do could you tell me what it is? If people ask for help then I am not being invasive. They can leave at anytime.
Originally posted by Nellinator
Yes. Please attack Socarides.
Charles Socarides waged an unsuccessful battle to reverse the American Psychiatric Association's 1973 decision to remove homosexuality from its list of mental disorders, and brushed off frequent condemnations by colleagues who considered his views hurtful.
"Gays ascribe their condition to God, but he should not have to take that rap, any more than he should be blamed for the existence of other manmade maladies—like war," he wrote in the Catholic weekly magazine America in 1995.
Socarides persisted in his views despite having a gay son, Richard, who became an adviser to President Clinton on gay and lesbian affairs.
In the 1990s, he was among the founders of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, a non-profit group based in Encino, Calif., "dedicated to affirming a complementary, male-female model of gender and sexuality."
Originally posted by Nellinator
I tend to seperate my sexual identity from my self identity. Identity is very personal and therefore varies from person to person.
What about your religious identity ? I separated myself from the identity as "sinner" long ago.
You are no more of a sinner than you are a heterosexual. Both aspects are a PART of who you are, although NEITHER should define you.
I agree that a person should NOT be defined as a heterosexual Or homosexual, or whatever. We are FAR MORE than just our sexual identities. But those are STILL a part of who we are, and to deny them only causes turmoil.
Originally posted by Nellinator
I can imagine. You know I've made mistakes that have caused condemnation from family and friends myself. You should know that I have no agenda.
Condemnation ? What about Forgiveness ? Does God condemn or forgive ?
Originally posted by Nellinator
If I do could you tell me what it is?
Your agenda is to get as many people to live the Conservative Christian lifestyle as possible. In your mind, that lifestyle is somehow superior to all others.
Originally posted by Nellinator
If people ask for help then I am not being invasive. They can leave at anytime.
True. But other people will use new discoveries as a means to oppress and discriminate further. Trust me.
X-Men 3, the "cure" is fiction based on possible reality. It's very insightful for a comic book movie.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What about your religious identity ? I separated myself from the identity as "sinner" long ago.You are no more of a sinner than you are a heterosexual. Both aspects are a PART of who you are, although NEITHER should define you.
I agree that a person should NOT be defined as a heterosexual Or homosexual, or whatever. We are FAR MORE than just our sexual identities. But those are STILL a part of who we are, and to deny them only causes turmoil.
Condemnation ? What about Forgiveness ? Does God condemn or forgive ?
Your agenda is to get as many people to live the Conservative Christian lifestyle as possible. In your mind, that lifestyle is somehow superior to all others.
True. But other people will use new discoveries as a means to oppress and discriminate further. Trust me.
X-Men 3, the "cure" is fiction based on possible reality. It's very insightful for a comic book movie.
God does both. If we ask for forgiveness he forgives and is happy to do so. If we do not he condemns. However, only God can forgive sin and only God can condemn. God definitely prefers forgiveness though.
😆 Apparently I do have an agenda. However, I'm sure you know by now that conservative Christian does well describe my beliefs. If everyone was loving would the world not be a better place? That is my goal.
I do believe you that some people would try to use reparitive therapy in an unethical manner. However, those that try to do that have shown much lower responsiveness from patients and a much lower success rate. It is really up to individual counsellours, psychologists and/or psychiatrists to do the job right, otherwise it won't work. To be done right it cannot infringe upon free will.
Originally posted by Nellinator
My religious identity would be saved. Also, a servant and a disciple. I agree that sinner is not an identity because we are all sinners. Acceptance is generally good. However, it can also be the first step to change.
Sinner is just a word to me and nothing more. I consider myself imperfect, but not a sinner. I understand the TERM fits me through religious perspective, yes, but I do not adopt that term into my life or being. Sorry.
Sin is simply an offense towards Christian/Judeo God, and since I do not beleive that diety exists, I do not beleive in "sin" either.
Originally posted by Nellinator
God does both. If we ask for forgiveness he forgives and is happy to do so. If we do not he condemns. However, only God can forgive sin and only God can condemn. God definitely prefers forgiveness though.
Then he is NOT All-Forgiving.
Oh God, please forgive me for being Gay....even though I will continue to have homosexual desire probably for the rest of my life
🙄
Originally posted by Nellinator
😆 Apparently I do have an agenda. However, I'm sure you know by now that conservative Christian does well describe my beliefs. If everyone was loving would the world not be a better place? That is my goal.
Like Usagi, you FAIL to understand a very simple fact here...You don't have to be a Conservative Christian to be a Loving Person....Love exists in all types of people. Love is NOT exclusively a Christian thing....OKAY ?
Please stop implying that Love somehow only truly exists in Christianity, because that is the biggest crock of sh*t argument I ever heard. JIA was the first to try n pull that shit, then USAGI tries to resurrect the same bias argument, don't you go stooping that low either, ok ?
Originally posted by Nellinator
I do believe you that some people would try to use reparitive therapy in an unethical manner. However, those that try to do that have shown much lower responsiveness from patients and a much lower success rate. It is really up to individual counsellours, psychologists and/or psychiatrists to do the job right, otherwise it won't work. To be done right it cannot infringe upon free will.
You cannot infringe upon free will, because free will has nothing to do with it.
When you understand that Life has something called Diversity, and when you finally realize that there is NOTHING EVIL about homosexuality, and understand that your religion is ONE OF MILLIONS of different belief systems that will come and go in the course of human history....
You may see reality, and understand that your perspective is only your perspective, and not the guarantee of truth.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[b]Sinner is just a word to me and nothing more. I consider myself imperfect, but not a sinner. I understand the TERM fits me through religious perspective, yes, but I do not adopt that term into my life or being. Sorry.Sin is simply an offense towards Christian/Judeo God, and since I do not beleive that diety exists, I do not beleive in "sin" either.
Then he is NOT All-Forgiving.
Oh God, please forgive me for being Gay....even though I will continue to have homosexual desire probably for the rest of my life
Like Usagi, you FAIL to understand a very simple fact here...You don't have to be a Conservative Christian to be a Loving Person....Love exists in all types of people. Love is NOT exclusively a Christian thing....OKAY ?
Please stop implying that Love somehow only truly exists in Christianity, because that is the biggest crock of sh*t argument I ever heard. JIA was the first to try n pull that shit, then USAGI tries to resurrect the same bias argument, don't you go stooping that low either, ok ?
You cannot infringe upon free will, because free will has nothing to do with it.
When you understand that Life has something called Diversity, and when you finally realize that there is NOTHING EVIL about homosexuality, and understand that your religion is ONE OF MILLIONS of different belief systems that will come and go in the course of human history....
You may see reality, and understand that your perspective is only your perspective, and not the guarantee of truth. [/B]
If you earnestly prayed that, I believe that God would change things for you. Even if it did not necessarily mean changing your sexuality. The idea of God being all forgiving is that he will forgive anyone who asks.
I actually made a typo leading to your interpretation. That was supposed to be "does not describe my beliefs well". I never made that claim. Sorry about that misunderstanding 😉 That said, I do believe that love in lacking in the world. I know you know that that is the main message I preach here. When we discuss morals I do not preach. Love, whether from Christians or not is my goal. Before the apostle John died he said to have continually muttered "Love one another". When he was asked why he always said that, he responded "because if it is all we do, it is enough". Hatred and anger is everywhere and that is what I try to combat.
Free will has a lot to do with it. If someone wants to change, I am obligated to help.
Hah. You're joking right?
"Hatred and anger is everywhere and that is what I try to combat"
Well the first part of that is seeing it in yourself. No amount of "ernest praying" changes anyone. There is plety of eveidence for that from everyone from Ted Haggard to my friend.
You may claim that you are trying to combat hate and anger, but by stating comments like that, you wear its color. Maybe you need to pray harder to have your god make you a better person.