On Homosexuality & Religion [Merged]

Originally posted by Alliance
THe point is, is that God(s) is(are) not (a) physical presence(s) on this Earth. Its excruciatingly easy to point out all the flaws in indoctrinated religion. Basing your opinions off of contradictory/ambiguous fiction that in milleniums old is rather rediculous imo.

Come on now, you know that just because you haven't seen him/them that doesn't mean they arent' there.

Religion has never been disproved, and I doubt it ever will. You go ahead and keep your mind closed. I prefer to wonder.

I have a great deal of wonderment about many things, I knwo what religious experiences are, I just don't have them towards some imaginary figure or intocrtinated faith.

Just becuase things cant' be seen, doesnt mean the cant be there. But things that are there leave evidence.

Religion will never be entirely disproved because its fiction. The parts that have been disporved are not longer believed. Religion slowly has been chipped away be logic reason. God has moved from the phyiscal world to the world in side of us because that is where he is safer. In the middle ages, god was never in you personally, you were a lowly serf trying to buy god's favor.

Now, I've read the bible, I know a great deal about what religion means to people. I know its strengths. I know its many weaknesses. You're prefectly welcome to disagree with my opinoin. BUT, I'm NOT a fool. My mind is open to the n'th degree. I examine everyhting. I actually use every source I can to back up my opinion. Re-examine your statement. "you go ahead and keep your mind closed"

Originally posted by Sam Z
If you want to be gay it's your chois but no need for showing your interests on public.

Originally posted by Alliance
Everyone shows thier public interests. YOu profess your faith in public. YOu likely worship in public and display religious symbols. Do you kiss your wife in public? Isn't that displaying your heterosexuality?

I'm not behind many pride events myself, but I find your position to be extreme.

On another note...what if your child is gay. People are born that way, they don't just wake up one day and decide to be gay. THey discover their sexuality eventually just like anyone else. Many gays try to supress it, because they live in fear. If your child is gay, do you wnat him to live in fear of you? Do you wnat him to be afraid to tell you? AS a parent, I think that you couldn't want that. Wouldn't you want him to be happy, even if you weren't? He's your kid, that should be unconditional love.

The thing is that people do not born that way. Sometimes it comes later and depends on many things. Men love women not because they just prefer them but because they were biologically created to be with women and this is the only way to give birth. But if men prefere other men it means there was something that made them to prefere men, not women. You don't born gay.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
People don't turn gay just like they don't turn straight.

People REALIZE what they are in time.....you don't know anything about it Sam Z.

'Coming Out" does NOT mean a person turns gay...it means a person realizes they are gay.

A person cannot turn gay just like they cannot turn straight.

Yes Urizen, person realizes that he is gay and still it never comes from no where. I can give you an example. One boy was born in village, his father was a sculptor. Usually he was making sculptures of naked men, it was his job and he was getting payed for it. There weren't a lot of people in the village so the only woman the boy was often seeing was his grandmother. Sculptures of naked men seemed more attractive to him than the only woman's stereotype he had.
It not always happens like this but this is one example.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
This is what SCARES ME though.....

For Christians and Muslims, for many of them, it's not about being mean or cruel.

They actually think that by limitting the rights of and insulting homosexuals in general, that they are HELPING....

they really feel they KNOW whats best and that they KNOW everything there is to know about being gay, and that the best solution is to forcibly CHANGE.....

They are NOT OPEN to the idea that homosexuality is PART of the genetic make up of a person and would disregard any science or logic that backs it up.

There IS NO debating with a person like that, they think they already KNOW and thats final .

Not sure about christians but in Islam the idea is not to "help" them.
God made humans and gave them ability to make other humans, to raise them, to love them. The sin here is ignoring God's will. You can't raise and love your child if you can't have one.

Originally posted by Storm
All of the participants of the gay pride parade join the festivities to remind the world that gays deserve the same rights as others and people should be free to live their own lifestyle, void of judgement or hate.

Gay parades where they fight for their rights make no sense as if people of traditional orientation had parades to show everyone that they are proud of their orientation.
People who don't like gays wont change their opinion because everyone have right to hate anyone. I, for example don't like satanists but I don't go to the streets yelling that they all are bastards because this is just intolerant and it wont change anything.

Straight is the norm. The majority of the population is straight, or heterosexual. People who are straight are not put down or the brunt of jokes. They are not discriminated against for being straight. They do not have laws in place to make their relationships illegal.

Originally posted by Storm
Straight is the norm. The majority of the population is straight, or heterosexual. People who are straight are not put down or the brunt of jokes. They are not discriminated against for being straight. They do not have laws in place to make their relationships illegal.

But discrimination always takes place, people are discriminated for being tall, short or for having more weight than others. I personally think that this is low but untill people show their hatred on public it is all within the law.
I can't think of any country where being gay is against the law. I only know cases when they are not allowed to get married. But isn't getting married is about creating a family? By family I mean having children.

It is important that people stand up against discrimination of all sorts.

Present-day countries where homosexuality is still punishable by death are:
[list][*]Iran
[*]Mauritania
[*]Nigeria
[*]Pakistan
[*]Saudi Arabia
[*]Sudan
[*]United Arab Emirates
[*]Yemen[/list]
I don' t think it is valid to assume that the natural end of marriage is procreation.

Originally posted by Storm
It is important that people stand up against discrimination of all sorts.

Present-day countries where homosexuality is still punishable by death are:
[list][*]Iran
[*]Mauritania
[*]Nigeria
[*]Pakistan
[*]Saudi Arabia
[*]Sudan
[*]United Arab Emirates
[*]Yemen[/list]
I don' t think it is valid to assume that the natural end of marriage is procreation.

In the most countries you've mentioned, they execute people even for talking bad about president and they do not go according to the law to do that. So discrimination of gays is the least problem they have there. It is not even discrimination. If they don't like somebody, they execute him.

Originally posted by Sam Z
The thing is that people do not born that way. Sometimes it comes later and depends on many things. Men love women not because they just prefer them but because they were biologically created to be with women and this is the only way to give birth. But if men prefere other men it means there was something that made them to prefere men, not women. You don't born gay.

Homosexuality has been observed in many other species. It not simply a behaviroal partern which lead me to your next story.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Yes Urizen, person realizes that he is gay and still it never comes from no where. I can give you an example. One boy was born in village, his father was a sculptor. Usually he was making sculptures of naked men, it was his job and he was getting payed for it. There weren't a lot of people in the village so the only woman the boy was often seeing was his grandmother. Sculptures of naked men seemed more attractive to him than the only woman's stereotype he had.
It not always happens like this but this is one example.

All that happened here was that the child was already gay. As he grew up and discovered his sexuality, he realized he was attracted to men. There are thousands of other examples where homosexual children have no exposeure to homosexuality, are rasied in devoutly religious families and still end up being homosexual. Thats how your God created them.

Honestly, if you repeadtely saw sculptures of naked men, would you turn gay? I don't think so. Its part of who you are. You know deep down inside. Its part of your existance. I'm sure for you, being Muslim is an essential part of your eixistance and it feels perfect. The same felling is true for homosexuals.

Originally posted by Alliance

All that happened here was that the child was already gay. As he grew up and discovered his sexuality, he realized he was attracted to men. There are thousands of other examples where homosexual children have no exposeure to homosexuality, are rasied in devoutly religious families and still end up being homosexual. Thats how your God created them.

Honestly, if you repeadtely saw sculptures of naked men, would you turn gay? I don't think so. Its part of who you are. You know deep down inside. Its part of your existance. I'm sure for you, being Muslim is an essential part of your eixistance and it feels perfect. The same felling is true for homosexuals.

I was raised as christian, later I became muslim because i felt it's right. Don't compare religion to sexual orientation.

That child became gay only because he hadn't choice. He never seen attractive women so how could he like them at all?
God does not create you gay. When you are a month old child you don't have sexual orientation. My post above was only one example, surely there might be other reasons but there always a reason.

You are suggesting that straight people TURN straight.....

There are gay parents who RAISE straight children...i bet you are unaware of that

There are straight parents who raise gay children......even in the most CONSERVATIVE of family standards you will have a gay child who is terrified to come out to his or her parents.

Bottom Line is you are not gay, so you do not know how it feels to be one, nor whether or not being gay is something we have at birth or something that we are "programmed" to be.

You don't know that, you have no proof. Whatever the case, being gay is part of the brain's chemistry. They have done conclusive studies on animals, for example on a sheep. I saw this on a science network.....there was a sheep who was surrounded by both male and female sheep. Despite his exposure to females, he only had sexual activity with male sheep.

They disected his brain and found that the gland responsible for sexual impulses in the Cerebrum was MUCH DIFFERENT from that of a straight sheep.

Whether or not being gay is something you are born with, or something you develop into......when you KNOW you are gay...that is it. You just ARE and theres no changing it.

The scientist said that this condition is FIXED...irreversable.....once you realize you are gay, you JUST ARE..and theres no changing it. You cannot deny this truth. IF YOU DO ignore this truth, then you are PURPOSELY being ignorant of it.

Originally posted by Sam Z
I was raised as christian, later I became muslim because i felt it's right. Don't compare religion to sexual orientation.

That child became gay only because he hadn't choice. He never seen attractive women so how could he like them at all?
God does not create you gay. When you are a month old child you don't have sexual orientation. My post above was only one example, surely there might be other reasons but there always a reason.

There is a fundamental flaw in your thinking. If you talk to any gay men or women, they will tell you that they have always felt the way they feel. The only choice they made was to be true to their feelings.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You are suggesting that straight people TURN straight.....

There are gay parents who RAISE straight children...i bet you are unaware of that

There are straight parents who raise gay children......even in the most CONSERVATIVE of family standards you will have a gay child who is terrified to come out to his or her parents.

Bottom Line is you are not gay, so you do not know how it feels to be one, nor whether or not being gay is something we have at birth or something that we are "programmed" to be.

You don't know that, you have no proof. Whatever the case, being gay is part of the brain's chemistry. They have done conclusive studies on animals, for example on a sheep. I saw this on a science network.....there was a sheep who was surrounded by both male and female sheep. Despite his exposure to females, he only had sexual activity with male sheep.

They disected his brain and found that the gland responsible for sexual impulses in the Cerebrum was MUCH DIFFERENT from that of a straight sheep.

Whether or not being gay is something you are born with, or something you develop into......when you KNOW you are gay...that is it. You just ARE and theres no changing it.

The scientist said that this condition is FIXED...irreversable.....once you realize you are gay, you JUST ARE..and theres no changing it. You cannot deny this truth. IF YOU DO ignore this truth, then you are PURPOSELY being ignorant of it.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You are suggesting that straight people TURN straight.....

There are gay parents who RAISE straight children...i bet you are unaware of that

Actually I know that and to be honest I'm not fond of it. There are things that one can only learn from mother or only from father.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
There are straight parents who raise gay children......even in the most CONSERVATIVE of family standards you will have a gay child who is terrified to come out to his or her parents.

Bottom Line is you are not gay, so you do not know how it feels to be one, nor whether or not being gay is something we have at birth or something that we are "programmed" to be.

You don't know that, you have no proof. Whatever the case, being gay is part of the brain's chemistry. They have done conclusive studies on animals, for example on a sheep. I saw this on a science network.....there was a sheep who was surrounded by both male and female sheep. Despite his exposure to females, he only had sexual activity with male sheep.

They disected his brain and found that the gland responsible for sexual impulses in the Cerebrum was MUCH DIFFERENT from that of a straight sheep.[/B]

There is no such thing as being "programmed" from your birth, this programming happens only after the birth, by parrents or other people.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Whether or not being gay is something you are born with, or something you develop into......when you KNOW you are gay...that is it. You just ARE and theres no changing it.

The scientist said that this condition is FIXED...irreversable.....once you realize you are gay, you JUST ARE..and theres no changing it. You cannot deny this truth. IF YOU DO ignore this truth, then you are PURPOSELY being ignorant of it. [/B]

I agree that when you know... that is it. But you can't tell yourself if this been so from you burth. It only means that you've been moving to this slowly and only THEN realised that.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There is a fundamental flaw in your thinking. If you talk to any gay men or women, they will tell you that they have always felt the way they feel. The only choice they made was to be true to their feelings.

Yes, they felt it for the period of life since they realised that. How can they say what they felt about it at the age of 8? They may be slowly coming to this since their childhood.

I agree that when you know... that is it. But you can't tell yourself if this been so from you burth. It only means that you've been moving to this slowly and only THEN realised that.

Well atleast we came to a mutual understanding somewhere.

But knowing this if your child told you that he was gay, what would you do ?

There is no such thing as being "programmed" from your birth, this programming happens only after the birth, by parrents or other people.

There is EVIDENCE to suggest that both our opinions may be right, but there is NO PROOF to validate that i am right, OR that you are right.

No matter the case, when the person REALIZES that they are gay...its too late. It's a fixed psychological aspect of the person. Being gay is thanks to a PHYSICAL chemical reaction and chemical development of the BRAIN....

maybe ur right, maybe people BECOME gay after birth...but then why would you have gay children come from CONSERVATIVE RELIGIOUS PARENTS?

FOR EXAMPLE: Dick Cheney's lesbian daughter

Originally posted by Sam Z
Yes, they felt it for the period of life since they realised that. How can they say what they felt about it at the age of 8? They may be slowly coming to this since their childhood.

So in a real practical sense, there is no difference.