Originally posted by Tangible God
Wow, the Germans got something before the rest of the world.....I for one am shocked.
Let's see... things Germans got before the rest of the world...
- Assault rifles
- Throwaway rocket launchers
- Good tanks
- A monopoly on sausage
- More rockets
- Modern warfare
- Camouflage uniforms
- ROTS DVD
Hm. That last one seems horribly out of place.
Please tell how you know what the ROTS commentery says when the DVD isn't out yet.
The ROTS DVD was officially released yesterday here (31th of Octobre) and they released BF2 the same day. I pretty much wondered about that myself when I saw the TV spot on Saturday since I've thought it will be released somewhere in the middle of November. Maybe they just wanted to push the BF 2 selling numbers (ROTS DVD set has a demo version of BF2 on the second DVD).
And therefore:
Mace vs. Sidious = Sidious and don't try starting another did or did not Mace truely win arguement please.
This statement is simply wrong. As I said...Lucas himself is talking about that scene and he said that there were different versions of that scene but they all had the following things included:
- Mace overpowering Sidious
- Sidious trying to kill Mace with lightning, Mace reflecting it back with his lightsaber making Sidious face "melt"
- Anakin cutting Mace's arm off to save Sidious
The only thing that was added (according to Lucas) was the idea to have Sidious fake that he doesn't have any force powers left. So in the "original" scene he kept on using lightning on Mace and Anakin cut Mace arm with the lightsaber off so that Sidious was able to finally hit Mace. So Sidious can't defeat Mace on his own when they fight on equal ground. That being said - and as long as you don't want to tell me that Mace is more powerful than Yoda - Sidious can't beat Yoda on equal ground.
That means.
Sidious vs Mace = Mace wins
Sidious vs Yoda = Yoda wins
Dooku vs Yoda = Yoda wins
Dooku vs Mace = I don't know
So unless you want to tell me that Dooku can take Mace faster than Yoda can take Sidious (Mace beat Sidious in about a minute; Yoda ist better than Mace and he disarmed Sidious in about a minute of fighting according to the ROTS script) the Jedi win that fight.
I haven't seen one person mention the fact that the fight was on mustafar. The lava and the jumping around means one of two things with yoda and sidious, 1. yoda will jump around and cut the very old sidious into little pieces, or sidious will be smarter than yoda again, and once again get the terrain advantage. yoda having learned from the first fight, i have to say yoda in that one. Mace and dooku? I want to say mace. he's got to be better. He beat sidious (for real, no sidious faking here) and for some reason dooku hadn't assassinated the emporer yet, which he would have if he could have (treachery is the way of the sith) I'm going with dooku though, because he is a fencer, and mace is pure power. A fencer will beat a power sword fighter every time, because mace always gives in and fights at a hundred miles an hour. So that leaves yoda and dooku, and yoda could, and did, hammer dooku. Not once, but twice if you read dark rendevous. So if mace fights sidious, he overpowers him again, and yoda kills dooku, so really yoda versus sidious and dooku versus mace is the only fight that even give the sith a chance.
Sith would win.
Mace vs. Dooku: It would be close but I want to say Dooku. Dooku had beaten Mace before, but they had both learned alot since then. After Dooku was taught to be a Sith, he was alot more powerful (What Tyranus said before fighting Yoda in Ep. 2 makes me think this).
Yoda vs. Sidious: People are saying that Sidious only lived through the battle because of terrain advantage, well then we know he can plot out his fights better than Yoda. Mustafar is an easy place to find an advantage and Sidious would get it first. Sidious wins.
or
Dooku vs. Yoda: Dooku puts up a good and lasting fight, but eventually loses.
Mace vs. Sidious: I won't talk about faking because of the dissapproval of the subject. Sidious wouldn't enter saber combat, he would fight him like he did Yoda. In ROTS he had to enter saber combat or else he would of had to fight 4 Jedi Masters with the force. If Sidious fought Windu like he did Yoda,he would win.
then Sidious vs. Yoda (look up).
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Sith would win.
I disagree.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Mace vs. Dooku: It would be close but I want to say Dooku. Dooku had beaten Mace before, but they had both learned alot since then. After Dooku was taught to be a Sith, he was alot more powerful (What Tyranus said before fighting Yoda in Ep. 2 makes me think this).
The nearly traditional Glentract Math...
Dooku beat Mace when Mace was at most 40. Thats the OLDEST Mace could have been. That would give Dooku 30 Years on him. Nearly double the experince. In ROTS, Mace is 53, Dooku 83. Before, Dooku's experince was 75% greater than Mace's, now it's only ~56%. A significant decrease of advantage for Dooku in the experince department.
Remember, the above calculation assumes a best case senario for Dooku.
Now, onto Harun Kal...
On Harun Kal, Mace conquered Darkness' hold over him. Before he did this, he was unable to fully tap into the power Vapaad held for him. The last time Mace and Dooku fought, Mace lacked this advantage.
Now onto force powers...
At first glance, Dooku has a serious advantage in force powers. This doesn't seem so.
First, Dooku is weaker than Sidious in the force. I think this is universeally accepted.
Second, Mace defeated Sidious in a display of force powers. Sure, Mace had an advantage in that he was using his lightsaber, but it is advantage that he will have in this case also.
Now, this doesn't mean that Mace is more powerful in the force than Dooku or Sidious, but it does show that he is capable of protecting himself from it when he is using a lightsaber.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yoda vs. Sidious: People are saying that Sidious only lived through the battle because of terrain advantage, well then we know he can plot out his fights better than Yoda. Mustafar is an easy place to find an advantage and Sidious would get it first. Sidious wins.
There aren't things like Senate Pods or the threat of thousands of approaching Clone Troopers on Mustafar though. I can't say for certain where this would go.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Dooku vs. Yoda: Dooku puts up a good and lasting fight, but eventually loses.
Two minutes tops.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Mace vs. Sidious: I won't talk about faking because of the dissapproval of the subject. Sidious wouldn't enter saber combat, he would fight him like he did Yoda. In ROTS he had to enter saber combat or else he would of had to fight 4 Jedi Masters with the force. If Sidious fought Windu like he did Yoda,he would win.
No proof for this. Mace defeated Sidious' force powers, this is fact.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
then Sidious vs. Yoda (look up).
See my response to that argument.
The Jedi would win.
1. I agree with Glenctract. Once more, Mace's room for improvement is greater than Dooku's. Dooku had roughly 30 years more experience, but Mace progressed immensely during his time in the Jedi Order. Not to say Dooku didn't either, but it is conceivable that Mace is now at the level of Dooku by ROTS.
2. Mace defeated Sidious's display of Force powers. Not in 'a' display of Force powers. 95% of what we've seen indicates that Mace would be crushed in a Force battle against Sidious. Yoda had a hell of a time against Sidious in a Force duel, and Mace is not Yoda's equal in either category.
Again. I agree with Glenctract. If Mace could take Sidious's powers at point blank range (though he struggled immensely), he can do the same with Dooku.
3. Once again. Yoda doesn't seem to possess an affinity to use one's surrounding to one's advantage. Sidious does. Now. This is not an easy fight, even if they battle in point blank range. Yoda will win the saber duel, but then Sidious might take the battle to the next level, in the Force. And despite what people think, Yoda's chances for survival decrease than if they dueled with a saber. Because, while Yoda did indeed disarm Sidious, he obviously still didn't kill him. In essence, Yoda was unable to defeat Sidious, even when Sidious was 'unarmed', showing that in a Force battle, Yoda will be put to the test and it is far from guarenteed that he could kill Sidious with sabers. Simply because Sidious survived when Yoda disarmed him, so it is likely he can do it again.
If Sidious uses his environment, such as the cranes and droids, it is EASILY a 50/50 chance. This isn't, contrary to popular belief, an easy fight. But I personally believe Yoda will win.
4. Dooku is NOT outclassed by Yoda. Is he Yoda's equal in Force powers or dueling skills? No. But the fact of the matter is, that despite his fear of Yoda and Yoda's superiority, he kept up with him blow for blow. But Dooku's fear was evident in the battle, and he fled knowing that he could not beat his master.
So. In conclusion.
Mace did NOT fight against Sidious's Force powers until Sidious was on his ass and disarmed. And even then, Mace was gritting his teeth and being pushed back. Only when Sidious stopped the output of energy did Mace finally get the true upper-hand.
And as for Lucas's comments:
I personally fluxuate on the issue. I do not disagree with Lucas. But he simply said 'Mace overpowered Sidious'. Indeed. This is true. Even if Palpatine 'threw' the fight, Mace still overpowered him. But he did not, to my knowledge, state that Mace simply defeated Palpatine through greater skill. When you look at it, Lucas 'STILL' left things open. And, also, Anakin's arrival was remarkably coincidental...
Originally posted by Escape81
2. Mace defeated Sidious's display of Force powers. Not in 'a' display of Force powers. 95% of what we've seen indicates that Mace would be crushed in a Force battle against Sidious. Yoda had a hell of a time against Sidious in a Force duel, and Mace is not Yoda's equal in either category.
I don't think it is ever canonly stated that Yoda is superior to Mace in either. He probably is, but it isn't certain. Just because Yoda is head of the Order doesn't mean he is the most powerful.
For example, Yoda is probably more powerful than Mace in the force for attacking. but Mace appears better than Yoda in force for defense.
Anyway, Mace had advantages against Sidious that would still be present on Mustafar.
For example, Mace is better with a lightsaber. This will still be true on Mustafar.
Same with his ability to defend himself from force attacks. Mace, when emerged into Vapaad at the level he was in ROTS is close to a superconductor in the force. Sidious' attack was reflected back as Sidious without severly harming Mace. This only means he can defend and use Sidious' attacks against Sidious, not that he is more powerful then Sidious in attacking with the force.
Originally posted by Escape81
If Sidious uses his environment, such as the cranes and droids, it is EASILY a 50/50 chance. This isn't, contrary to popular belief, an easy fight. But I personally believe Yoda will win.
I agree, Yoda will win.
Originally posted by Escape81
4. Dooku is NOT outclassed by Yoda. Is he Yoda's equal in Force powers or dueling skills? No. But the fact of the matter is, that despite his fear of Yoda and Yoda's superiority, he kept up with him blow for blow. But Dooku's fear was evident in the battle, and he fled knowing that he could not beat his master.
Like most fights, there were circumstances to their fight.
For one, Yoda didn't know that Dooku was a Sith Lord in AOTC. He felt Dooku had fallen to the Darkside, but considered him a Dark Jedi, not a Sith.
Also, Yoda's intent was not to kill Dooku. Seeing as this fight would probably take place in the ROTS time, Yoda will by this point have knowledge that Dooku is a Sith and fight harder against him.
Originally posted by Escape81
Mace did NOT fight against Sidious's Force powers until Sidious was on his ass and disarmed. And even then, Mace was gritting his teeth and being pushed back. Only when Sidious stopped the output of energy did Mace finally get the true upper-hand.
Not exactly. Do you remember Sidious' screaming to Anakin that Mace was killing him? That is because he was. Mace was reflecting the Force Lightning back at Sidious, which was what melted his face. If Sidious' hadn't stopped, he would have died. I would say Mace had the upper hand until Anakin cut his hand off.
No, Glentract. I've watched that fight many times. Yoda was winning the force battle despite being shocked first and initially being at a disadvantage and off balance. He turned the wave back on Sidious (Who made a horrid face because he was being pwned) and the resulting shockwave from the energy threw them both back. Sidious had a rail on his side. Yoda on the edge didn't. Yoda WON the battle and horribly so. A far cry from Mace struggling under Sidious' blast despite using a lightsaber and going "No... he... is... the... traitor!" and then he reflects it back and Sidious just... gives up.
So no, Yoda wasn't "blasted off the pod".
Yoda was blasted off the pod. Yoda did win their little engagement, but Sidious wasn't to the point of nearly dying after it. Mace had the lightsaber and is struggling but not a whole lot. Sidious was dying when he was using it against Mace, not when he was using it against Yoda. Sidious stopped the attack because continuing it would have killed him, he didn't just give up.
Yoda was blasted off the pod.
So was Sidious. This proves nothing for Force Defense.
Yoda did win their little engagement, but Sidious wasn't to the point of nearly dying after it.
And Sidious wasn't to the point of dying after being zapped by Mace. If anything he was faking his weakness, as is totally ****ing obvious when he shouts and shocks Mace the very moment he's disarmed. And then he got up and had no problems walking around, talking, and thinking for someone who as you're saying almost died.
Mace had the lightsaber and is struggling but not a whole lot.
He was struggling more than Yoda was. Mace was visibly struggling and pushing forward with the lightning to maintain balance. Yoda, with his bare hands was not doing so and if anything steeled himself and totally redirected it.
Sidious was dying when he was using it against Mace, not when he was using it against Yoda. Sidious stopped the attack because continuing it would have killed him, he didn't just give up.
Again, he was NOT dying. And if it would have killed him, he sure as hell acted fine five seconds later.