Plus that whole "but Sidious got back up again with apparent ease."
That means shit. I could be fighting with nunchucks with Jackie Chan, a few flicks and he's got me disarmed, but does that mean I'm out of breath and energy? No.
Mace disarmed Sidious. He did it before Anakin entered the room. Why would Sidious throw the fight if Anakin's not there to be fooled into thinking Mace is gonna kill Palp's out of cold blood? Wasn't that the whole argument of the Sidious fanboys? Believing their PimpDaddy took a dive to inspire Anakin's sympathy?
Mace one, dive or no dive, and Palpy would be in two if Anakin hadn't interfered. Whoever dies in a fight is the loser, plain and simple.
I just watched the ROTS movie, and I listened to the commentary on the Palpatine vs Mace and Yoda vs Palpatine battle.
1. Lucas said specifically that Mace did overpower Palpatine. He did not say that he did it legitimately and that Palpatine wasn't faking. Indeed, Lucas even 'confirmed' that Palpatine was faking when he stopped the assault on Mace.
2. Lucas does NOT comment on the validity of the battle. He does not state, or imply, either way that Anakin's arrival was mere coincidence. He leaves it, once more, open to the fans to interpret. Thusly meaning there is no right answer.
3. Now. You will recall that when Anakin was sitting in the council's chamber, he heard Palpatine say something to him: "If the Jedi kill me, my knowledge dies with me." Now. Palpatine said 'NO' such thing during their banter when Anakin exposed him as a Sith Lord. So, it could not have been Anakin recalling one of Palpatine's statements. Indeed, the more obvious answer is that Palpatine used a form of 'telepathy' (there is no other word for it) to simply remind Anakin that Padme would not survive without him.
Also. Since Palpatine is so attuned to the Force to inhabit the planet as the Jedi do without detection, I assume it is very safe to assume that he is able to sense a single Force user entering the Chancellory. Also note that 'before' Anakin stepped into the building, Mace was gaining NO leverage on Palpatine, and was indeed being pushed back, only able to 'defend' against Sidious. Then, mysteriously, when Anakin steps one foot into the building, Mace slowly gets the upper hand. Anakin IS, in fact, in the office when Palpatine is kicked. He is in the 'main' office, on the way down to Palpatine's quarters, a mere hallway away. So, indeed.
Sidious either planned this when Anakin told him he'd inform the Council, or it's damn good coincidence. And let's be honest here. When has 'coincidence' been a regular factor in Star Wars?
Originally posted by Escape81ANH. That's coincidence, so's ESB.
I just watched the ROTS movie, and I listened to the commentary on the Palpatine vs Mace and Yoda vs Palpatine battle.1. Lucas said specifically that Mace did overpower Palpatine. He did not say that he did it legitimately and that Palpatine wasn't faking. Indeed, Lucas even 'confirmed' that Palpatine was faking when he stopped the assault on Mace.
2. Lucas does NOT comment on the validity of the battle. He does not state, or imply, either way that Anakin's arrival was mere coincidence. He leaves it, once more, open to the fans to interpret. Thusly meaning there is no right answer.
3. Now. You will recall that when Anakin was sitting in the council's chamber, he heard Palpatine say something to him: "If the Jedi kill me, my knowledge dies with me." Now. Palpatine said 'NO' such thing during their banter when Anakin exposed him as a Sith Lord. So, it could not have been Anakin recalling one of Palpatine's statements. Indeed, the more obvious answer is that Palpatine used a form of 'telepathy' (there is no other word for it) to simply remind Anakin that Padme would not survive without him.
Also. Since Palpatine is so attuned to the Force to inhabit the planet as the Jedi do without detection, I assume it is very safe to assume that he is able to sense a single Force user entering the Chancellory. Also note that 'before' Anakin stepped into the building, Mace was gaining NO leverage on Palpatine, and was indeed being pushed back, only able to 'defend' against Sidious. Then, mysteriously, when Anakin steps one foot into the building, Mace slowly gets the upper hand. Anakin IS, in fact, in the office when Palpatine is kicked. He is in the 'main' office, on the way down to Palpatine's quarters, a mere hallway away. So, indeed.
Sidious either planned this when Anakin told him he'd inform the Council, or it's damn good coincidence. And let's be honest here. When has 'coincidence' been a regular factor in Star Wars?
ROTJ though, that was all planned.
Originally posted by Escape81
1. Lucas said specifically that Mace did overpower Palpatine. He did not say that he did it legitimately and that Palpatine wasn't faking. Indeed, Lucas even 'confirmed' that Palpatine was faking when he stopped the assault on Mace.
Here Lucas own words:
"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine uses his powers and tries to destroy Mace then Mace reflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it was always that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later."
Now what do you want to interprete here in Sidious favor ? Mace overpowered him in the lightsaber fight. Period. Sidious wasn't able to destroy Mace with force lightning because Mace had his lightsaber to reflect it. Period.
The original scene would have looked the same way with the exception that Sidious would have continued lightning on Mace and Anakin would have cut Mace lightsaber off thereby taking the protection against Sidious lightning away.
The only thing that Sidious pretended or faked was not to have any force power left and this was added with the reason to have Anakin turn to the Dark Side at this point later own. But the things mentioned clearly state that Sidious was unable to kill Mace with both - lightsaber and his force powers. And this is what Lucas tells us so there is no room for interpretation / speculation here.
2. Lucas does NOT comment on the validity of the battle. He does not state, or imply, either way that Anakin's arrival was mere coincidence. He leaves it, once more, open to the fans to interpret. Thusly meaning there is no right answer.
What do you want to interpret here ? I've argued that point in the EP III forum with DarthSith19: It doesn't matter for the validity of the fight if the arrival of Anakin was coincidence or Sidious sensed it. He had no reason to fake something in the lightsaber fight because Anakin couldn't have seen it and Mace had the chance to kill Sidious in two situations:
- one can be seen directly after we see Anakin arriving at the Senate building. Mace and Sidious are fighting in the middle of the room and they stop for a short moment: Watch their positions. Mace has his blade above his head ready to place a strike and waits. Sidious has his blade on his right side pointing down: He was defenceless. Mace could have killed him but didn't do it instead he waited to place his next strike.
- second situation is when they are fighting in front of the window. Sidious goes down on his knees having his saber in front of him while Mace is behind him. If Mace had simply turned around there he would have cut Sidious head off. Again he didn't do it.
Now let's try to use some logic here. If Sidious wanted to make the fight look like as if he had lost it, he would have simply dominated the fight and then throw his weapon away or pretend to lose it when Mace places a hit on it (pretending not to be strong enough to parry) but there is no way that Sidious - Mr. Coward - would have risked his life without any reason (nobody there to see it). And there is no way he could have "faked" losing his lightsaber by having Mace kicking it out of his hand.
3. Now. You will recall that when Anakin was sitting in the council's chamber, he heard Palpatine say something to him: "If the Jedi kill me, my knowledge dies with me." Now. Palpatine said 'NO' such thing during their banter when Anakin exposed him as a Sith Lord. So, it could not have been Anakin recalling one of Palpatine's statements. Indeed, the more obvious answer is that Palpatine used a form of 'telepathy' (there is no other word for it) to simply remind Anakin that Padme would not survive without him.
a) The line is "You do know...don't you...if the Jedi destroy me any chances saving her will be lost".
b) Sorry...but there is another line in the original script that Anakin hears in the Council room...
PADME: I truly, deeply love you. Before I die. I want you to know.
So unless you want to tell me that Padme suddenly has developed some foresight ability (she never believed that she's gonna die) and some telepathic abilities I won't believe that Palpatine used telepathy to contact Anakin. Second reason is: If he wanted Anakins help he would have contacted him earlier instead of risking his life against Mace or simply give Anakin another - more direct - line.
Also. Since Palpatine is so attuned to the Force to inhabit the planet as the Jedi do without detection, I assume it is very safe to assume that he is able to sense a single Force user entering the Chancellory. Also note that 'before' Anakin stepped into the building, Mace was gaining NO leverage on Palpatine, and was indeed being pushed back, only able to 'defend' against Sidious. Then, mysteriously, when Anakin steps one foot into the building, Mace slowly gets the upper hand. Anakin IS, in fact, in the office when Palpatine is kicked. He is in the 'main' office, on the way down to Palpatine's quarters, a mere hallway away. So, indeed.
a)
Being able to remain undected has nothing to do with the ability to sense force users. I wouldn't draw any conclusions like that here.
b)
Mace won the "saberlock" with Sidious and this is before Anakin entered the building and as I stated: Mace could have killed Sidious in two situations where it wasn't usefull for Sidious to fake something. It doesn't matter if he sensed Anakin coming or not - he could have been dead without Anakin having the chance to rescue him. Do you really think he would have risked his life without any effect (since nobody was there to see it) ? And he didn't even need that situation to make Anakin join him. Anakin wanted something from him - and therefore he was totally at Sidious mercy even before having helped to kill Mace.
Sidious either planned this when Anakin told him he'd inform the Council, or it's damn good coincidence. And let's be honest here. When has 'coincidence' been a regular factor in Star Wars?
You can keep on speculating on this point but it has no effect on the fight Sidious vs Mace. Mace could have killed Sidious two times before Anakin was even close to them, there is no way faking to get you weapon kicked out of your hand by another fighter and Lucas simply told us that Sidious wasn't able to defeat Mace with a lightsaber nor was he able to kill Mace with his force lightning (and he tried to do it).
Perhaps so. And, I didn't necessarily say that things went according to 'plan', either. What I am saying is that Sidious's words to Anakin in the Chamber were not said earlier. And it is possible for a Jedi or a Sith to detect the presence of another Force-user in their mind. Perhaps this is some variant of that.
Glentract, this is for you. I will use mostly(only, if possible) what you said and facts, sound good? Here it is.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
First, Dooku is weaker than Sidious in the force. I think this is universeally accepted.
"The nearly traditional Glentract Math...
Dooku beat Mace when Mace was at most 40. Thats the OLDEST Mace could have been. That would give Dooku 30 Years on him. Nearly double the experince. In ROTS, Mace is 53, Dooku 83. Before, Dooku's experince was 75% greater than Mace's, now it's only ~56%. A significant decrease of advantage for Dooku in the experince department.
Remember, the above calculation assumes a best case senario for Dooku. "
Now, Yoda is older than Sidious, that means that Sidious would have proporionately more time to become more powerful over those few years. Your arguments say that Yoda would beat Sidious, but prove it wrong, ironic, really.
Let me finish by saying that it is nothing personal, I just wanted to point that out
i think the fight between palpatine and yoda came down simply to there was a railing on palpatine's side and not one one yoda's. Yoda won that force battle before he got thrown off the pod, but even the winner gets thrown (obi, anakin, hitting both sides of the room) still, how lame was it for yoda to scratch the pod and fall? this is yoda! thrown to the bottem maybe, but he clearly had time to recover from being thrown, and he just fell. why no force leap back on top of the pod?
Originally posted by jollyjim311
I agree. In Ep. II, Dooku says that Yoda and his contest cannot be decided by force powers, meaning that they are equal. This would mean that Sidious is more powerful in the force than Yoda. Willing to bet that Yoda got alot better over those few years between AOTC and ROTS? I thought you would.
This doesn't necessarily mean they are equal. That is obviously Dooku being arrogant. Yoda had a much easier time doing that than Dooku did.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Now, Yoda is older than Sidious, that means that Sidious would have proporionately more time to become more powerful over those few years. Your arguments say that Yoda would beat Sidious, but prove it wrong, ironic, really.
It would also seem that Yoda's species develops slower. It is doubtful that Yoda was even a Knight by the time he was fifty, just because that is the way that his species evolved. Wookies, for example, take dozens of years to mature. You can't compare the between species.
The ongoing Dooku v Sidious debate is still in question, as well as their stance against Yoda.
a) I've reviewed Yoda v. Sidious and Yoda v. Dooku numerous times. Then, I watched both of them with the commentary on. I'm curious how people get the notion that Dooku is above and beyond Sidious in the art of dueling. Where one can argue that they are equals, or that Dooku is slightly better, I do not see how one can stretch it that far.
Some say it's because Mace defeated Sidious, and Dooku once defeated Mace. Again, this was years before TPM. Dooku was older; and had a lot more experience compared to Mace. So, once again, Windu's margin for improvement extended far beyond Dooku's. Whether or not he reached that potential is unknown. One cannot say how they'd fare if Dooku were to attack Mace in ROTS.
b) In Yoda v. Sidious, the lightsaber duel is 'NOT' clearly in Yoda's favor. If one will observe carefully, one will see that both are evenly matched. Yoda is not on the offensive and on the advantage. It fluxuates. They movie into the arena, and 'BOTH' at various times take the offensive. But neither can crash through the others' defenses. Not even Yoda. It is, in fact, the same as Yoda v. Dooku. Yoda miraculously defeats his opponents in their respective saber locks, but that's the closest he gets to actually being called superior. Sidious goes on a lunatic frenzy, where as Dooku does the same.
Some also say that since Dooku challenged Yoda; that he was also obviously superior to Sidious. Not true. Dooku looked to challenge his master to try and prove his superiority. While Dooku did indeed put Yoda to the test, and fought to the point where Yoda had difficulty, it does not make him any superior to Sidious; as the Dark Lord himself did the same. Dooku's arrogance drove him to challenge Yoda; Sidious did it out of the fact that Yoda was blocking the escape way. Sidious was using mental rationale. Why, if one were bestowed power over the very galaxy, would one stay and fight an opponent who is every bit one's equal?
Sidious did the smart thing.
c) Dooku and Sidious in the Force. Dooku initiated all attacks on Yoda. Yoda deflected them all, and for most of them, put them off to the side. You will notice, for example, when Dooku tries to drop the debris from the roof onto Yoda, that Yoda turns it away instead of casting it back. Once more, Yoda was looking, above all else, to 'KILL' Sidious. He would have killed Dooku if necessary, but he didn't seem to intend to do it. He only deflected the lightning back when he knew that Dooku was prepared to try and kill him.
Now. Notice. When Dooku rips the debris and metal from the roof, he does so with great effort and concentration. Notice also when Sidious rips pods from their moors, he does so by throwing three at a time. The pods are equally proportionate to the debris, and Dooku had difficulty chucking ONE at Yoda. Sidious chucked THREE with ease. Sorry, but there is more evidence that proves Sidious to be the superior Force user, with subtle moves like that.
d) I also love how people excuse Sidious landing a blow on Yoda (which Dooku never did, I'm sorry to say) on the fact that:
"Dooku's battle was shorter than Sidious's. He didn't have time to do it'.
Pardon me, but I recall Sidious nailing Yoda LESS than a minute after Yoda entered the room. Dooku never nailed Yoda in the entire duel. Sidious nailed him once, and disarmed him, we have seen. Did Dooku? Nope. Not even on Vjun, where the Dark Side was dominant.
e) Dooku is older than Sidious, that's true. He has been a Force user for longer, also true. But as we've seen, Yoda is 900 years old and could not outright defeat Sidious or Dooku. And while Yoda seems slightly stronger than those two, he is FAR older than either of them. If age were so important, he'd be able to crush both of them with his pinky. But he can't. Age is important. But not too important. Some people are simply naturally stronger Force-users than others.
f) Sidious is obviously the greater Dark Side practitioner. He is far beyond Dooku there. So immersed in it that he is able to shield himself from the great Jedi like Mace and Yoda, while occupying the same damn room. I've seen where some have argued that 'Dooku was already a Jedi, people knew his 'signature'. Perhaps. I am NOT denying the possibility that Dooku was able to do it. But also possible, equally so, is that Dooku is UNABLE to do it.
g) So. We've seen that in the Force, Sidious is superior. And in saber skills, Dooku isn't far above Sidious. If Sidious can contend with Yoda in equal speed as Dooku could, and fight the same way, gain advantages, gain the offensive, and still have a strong defense that Yoda can't break through, I don't see Dooku 'owning' Sidious in saber skills. If Sidious can hold Yoda The 'Tazmanian Devil' at bay, he can do it for Yoda. Which means that it will probably come down to a battle with the Force. Which Sidious 'will win'.
h) As for the Mace and Sidious thing. I've also heard that 'Mace put Sidious on his ass in less than a minute'. Hmm. Not true. More like three. And as I've seen around here, the battles with lightning fast blows will end quickly. And considering how (unlike Obi-Wan and Anakin), Mace and Sidious battled only through saber skills, I'd have to agree.
In conclusion. I see nothing that indicates Dooku as superior to his master. If he is, it would be in saber ability, and it would only be slight. As for Force-ability (especially offensive), he is lacking when compared to his master.
It probably seems I'm on a Dooku-hunt, to slander him. I'm not. But when some people hold him on such a high pedestal and assume he could wipe the floor with the man he called his 'MASTER' and whom he 'FEARED', I tend to get a little defensive. I like Dooku. But damn, people. You all need to realize Dooku's done nothing that warrants him the title of being able to defeat Sidious, let alone be labeled stronger.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Sound like a bad cover up for a big hole in your logic. Plus, if Yoda ages slower, then wouldn't Sidious be able to learn alot more in those years between AOTC and ROTS?
Seems like you should try to use some logic rather than telling people what you believe is hole's in theirs.
Yoda has had a lot more time to learn before that. Yoda was even father ahead of Sidious in AOTC than he was in ROTS. What does that matter?
Some say it's because Mace defeated Sidious, and Dooku once defeated Mace. Again, this was years before TPM. Dooku was older; and had a lot more experience compared to Mace. So, once again, Windu's margin for improvement extended far beyond Dooku's. Whether or not he reached that potential is unknown. One cannot say how they'd fare if Dooku were to attack Mace in ROTS.
I love how people mention the fact that Mace apparently gained this horseload of Experience of "fighting" throughout the years from their fight, but one of the only Lightsaber fights he had was with Sidious? Let us begin: AOTC, he kills a shitload of droids and decapitates a Bounty Hunter. In the CW cartoons, he lands on top of ship and disables a couple, he then kills more droids. The books: He has a few training fights with his pupils and then gets into two or three fights that last less than a few seconds for the fact that the are not going all out on each other. Now, over the years, Mace has been the only one sword training and has an overall margin of some superior power that he suddenly gained from a few years.
By the end of TPM, Dooku had swayed over to the Dark side, where he had learned a newer technique of the Force, which can prove to be a far more devastating power than the Light side (Proven when the Jedi basically get f*cked over on ROTS and the Dark side virtually wins, besides Anakin getting his shizzle all fizzled). Dooku has been able to fully administer and unleash the raw power of his form my applying emotion and infuriation. He has also had an Experience Margin in his older age. I can imagine all the Dark side Practice he had to go through for people to argue that he was better than Sidious. He would have had to train damn hard to already have such a dangerous and powerful knowledge of usage of the force, correct? Well, maybe he ALSO gained a grand canyon full of experience while Mace did. I am sure he didn't sit around in an office not practicing, or he wouldn't be as good as he is.
Some also say that since Dooku challenged Yoda; that he was also obviously superior to Sidious. Not true. Dooku looked to challenge his master to try and prove his superiority. While Dooku did indeed put Yoda to the test, and fought to the point where Yoda had difficulty, it does not make him any superior to Sidious; as the Dark Lord himself did the same. Dooku's arrogance drove him to challenge Yoda; Sidious did it out of the fact that Yoda was blocking the escape way. Sidious was using mental rationale. Why, if one were bestowed power over the very galaxy, would one stay and fight an opponent who is every bit one's equal?
Sidious did the smart thing.
No, Sidious knew that Yoda could hand his ass to him. Funny thing: I didn't see Sidious trying to leave his office before he got pushed into his office chair.
Dooku and Sidious
-Sidious tried to run.
-Dooku stayed to fight.
----
-Sidious and Yoda stalemated.
-Dooku and Yoda stalemated.
Notice something?
c) Dooku and Sidious in the Force. Dooku initiated all attacks on Yoda. Yoda deflected them all, and for most of them, put them off to the side. You will notice, for example, when Dooku tries to drop the debris from the roof onto Yoda, that Yoda turns it away instead of casting it back. Once more, Yoda was looking, above all else, to 'KILL' Sidious. He would have killed Dooku if necessary, but he didn't seem to intend to do it. He only deflected the lightning back when he knew that Dooku was prepared to try and kill him.
Umm... Sidious got one Lightning ravage on Yoda... Uh... YAY! Yoda could have deflected it. He sat there and went "WTF? You got nerve!". He probably wasn't expecting Sidious' first shot either.
Now. Notice. When Dooku rips the debris and metal from the roof, he does so with great effort and concentration. Notice also when Sidious rips pods from their moors, he does so by throwing three at a time. The pods are equally proportionate to the debris, and Dooku had difficulty chucking ONE at Yoda. Sidious chucked THREE with ease. Sorry, but there is more evidence that proves Sidious to be the superior Force user, with subtle moves like that.
So now they automatically weigh the same because you say so? Well, that's sunk. For all you know, Dooku's debris could have weigh 700LBS where as Sidious' could have weighed 500LBS. No proof.
d) I also love how people excuse Sidious landing a blow on Yoda (which Dooku never did, I'm sorry to say) on the fact that:
"Dooku's battle was shorter than Sidious's. He didn't have time to do it'.
Pardon me, but I recall Sidious nailing Yoda LESS than a minute after Yoda entered the room. Dooku never nailed Yoda in the entire duel. Sidious nailed him once, and disarmed him, we have seen. Did Dooku? Nope. Not even on Vjun, where the Dark Side was dominant.
Sidious nailed him twice? Once! And it was a suprise attack. Did you see the look on Yoda's face? No time to react. He was suprised. Yoda was prepared for Dooku. Yoda also probably didn't know of Sidious' power either. He just met him as a Sith Lord, for crying out loud!
Disarmed him? Is that the part where Yoda absorbs it and unleashes and attack so powerful, it has Sidious' face in a worry? I think so.
e) Dooku is older than Sidious, that's true. He has been a Force user for longer, also true. But as we've seen, Yoda is 900 years old and could not outright defeat Sidious or Dooku. And while Yoda seems slightly stronger than those two, he is FAR older than either of them. If age were so important, he'd be able to crush both of them with his pinky. But he can't. Age is important. But not too important. Some people are simply naturally stronger Force-users than others.
Exactly, but Age does indeed grant experience.
Wanna hear something funny? When Sidious came to reach Dooku's age, he was limping around on a Cane. Let me guess.... The Dark side ate at him? Wouldn't the Dark Side make him an ultra powerful being of great power like some previous Sith Lords? Or maybe old age just got to Sidious indeed.
f) Sidious is obviously the greater Dark Side practitioner. He is far beyond Dooku there. So immersed in it that he is able to shield himself from the great Jedi like Mace and Yoda, while occupying the same damn room. I've seen where some have argued that 'Dooku was already a Jedi, people knew his 'signature'. Perhaps. I am NOT denying the possibility that Dooku was able to do it. But also possible, equally so, is that Dooku is UNABLE to do it.
That has nothing to do with Force. That was Sidious intellegence that played a part. The Jedi are not super gods, and they do not know everything that surrounds them. And now Dooku all of the sudden doesn't hold the ability to cloud the mind vision of people? Fess up some proof of this, other than the fact that "Sidious was Master, and Dooku are apprentice".
g) So. We've seen that in the Force, Sidious is superior. And in saber skills, Dooku isn't far above Sidious. If Sidious can contend with Yoda in equal speed as Dooku could, and fight the same way, gain advantages, gain the offensive, and still have a strong defense that Yoda can't break through, I don't see Dooku 'owning' Sidious in saber skills. If Sidious can hold Yoda The 'Tazmanian Devil' at bay, he can do it for Yoda. Which means that it will probably come down to a battle with the Force. Which Sidious 'will win'.
Different people, Different Game. That would be like saying "Kenobi could own Dooku because Kenobi owned Anakin, and Anakin owned Dooku."
The funny part is: Dooku could rip Kenobi to shreds. You cannot use the Criss-Cross Analogy, because it just doesn't fit into the Logic Radius. So, saying just because Sidious defe..... "Stalemated" with Yoda better than Dooku did means that Dooku automatically loses to Sidious in a Lightsaber fight? RIGHTO! Dooku was a complete MASTER of his old fashioned form. He is considered one of the greatest Lightsaber duelists of his time.
h) As for the Mace and Sidious thing. I've also heard that 'Mace put Sidious on his ass in less than a minute'. Hmm. Not true. More like three. And as I've seen around here, the battles with lightning fast blows will end quickly. And considering how (unlike Obi-Wan and Anakin), Mace and Sidious battled only through saber skills, I'd have to agree.
It was around a minute. Sidious got dropped by Mace. GL says it on the DVD. Mace basically defeated Sidious fair and square.
In conclusion. I see nothing that indicates Dooku as superior to his master. If he is, it would be in saber ability, and it would only be slight. As for Force-ability (especially offensive), he is lacking when compared to his master.
I disagree. Dooku could be just as powerful as Sidious in the force.
It probably seems I'm on a Dooku-hunt, to slander him. I'm not. But when some people hold him on such a high pedestal and assume he could wipe the floor with the man he called his 'MASTER' and whom he 'FEARED', I tend to get a little defensive. I like Dooku. But damn, people. You all need to realize Dooku's done nothing that warrants him the title of being able to defeat Sidious, let alone be labeled stronger.
Like I said, it is possible Sidious feared Dooku, or Dooku feared Sidious. Dooku has never mentioned a fear for Sidious, let alone ever cowered to Sidious. In the history of SW, Apprentices have been known to betray their Masters and whoop their asses. Do not be fooled by titles and ranks.
Like it said in Revelations, Dooku wanted to overthrow Sidious, but Sidious was smarter. That doesn't make him more powerful.
Originally posted by Escape81
Some say it's because Mace defeated Sidious, and Dooku once defeated Mace. Again, this was years before TPM. Dooku was older; and had a lot more experience compared to Mace. So, once again, Windu's margin for improvement extended far beyond Dooku's. Whether or not he reached that potential is unknown. One cannot say how they'd fare if Dooku were to attack Mace in ROTS.
The real point here is: Mace did practice Vaapad for 27 years at the point Dooku defeated him. Vaapad is the completion of Juyo which is probably the form that Sidious was using (seeing that Maul used this form and he was trained by Sidious).
So if Dooku can take a lightsaber prodigy with 27 years time of practice in a lightsaber style that is the completion of the style Sidious used how would he not be able to take Sidious himself considering the fact that Sidious had a political career running for half of his life and therefore not that much time for training.
b) In Yoda v. Sidious, the lightsaber duel is 'NOT' clearly in Yoda's favor.
According to the script Yoda disarmed Sidious before Sidious started throwing pods at him. So he was superior. And I personally think it's quite useless to compare the fights here:
a)
Yoda and Dooku were fighting on equal ground while Yoda had to jump around outside of the pod for most of the time against Sidious. Disadvantage on Yoda's side.
b)
Yoda's fighting style requires a lot of space as far as we have seen in AotC. In the ROTS duel with Sidious he had less space than he had while fighting Dooku. Another disadvantage for Yoda.
c)
Yet even with this two disadvantages Yoda disarmed Sidious in the same amount of time he forced Dooku to flee.
c) Dooku and Sidious in the Force. Dooku initiated all attacks on Yoda. Yoda deflected them all, and for most of them, put them off to the side. You will notice, for example, when Dooku tries to drop the debris from the roof onto Yoda, that Yoda turns it away instead of casting it back.
Now. Notice. When Dooku rips the debris and metal from the roof, he does so with great effort and concentration. Notice also when Sidious rips pods from their moors, he does so by throwing three at a time. The pods are equally proportionate to the debris, and Dooku had difficulty chucking ONE at Yoda. Sidious chucked THREE with ease. Sorry, but there is more evidence that proves Sidious to be the superior Force user, with subtle moves like that.
I'm pretty sure that Yoda didn't want to kill Dooku but what does that proove here ? Again the situations aren't compareable. Dooku threw stuff at Yoda across the entire room and we don't know the weight of the objects. Yoda put them aside. Sidious dropped things down on Yoda without speeding them up and this by any means requires less force power then accelareting them to hit somebody (this is what Dooku did).
And the only situation Dooku had to use real effort was when he dopped parts of the ceiling on Yoda. Dooku ripped a part of a static object lose to throw it down on Yoda. Sidious was throwing pods at Yoda that were moveable and just hold on the Senate Chambers walls. And we still don't know how much weight the objects thrown have.
Pardon me, but I recall Sidious nailing Yoda LESS than a minute after Yoda entered the room. Dooku never nailed Yoda in the entire duel. Sidious nailed him once, and disarmed him, we have seen. Did Dooku? Nope. Not even on Vjun, where the Dark Side was dominant.
Sidious landed two surprise attacks on Yoda (first when Yoda entered the office, second when disarming Yoda). Dooku had no situation where he could have surprised Yoda.
e) Dooku is older than Sidious, that's true. He has been a Force user for longer, also true. But as we've seen, Yoda is 900 years old and could not outright defeat Sidious or Dooku. And while Yoda seems slightly stronger than those two, he is FAR older than either of them. If age were so important, he'd be able to crush both of them with his pinky. But he can't. Age is important. But not too important. Some people are simply naturally stronger Force-users than others.
When you have a closer look at TPM, Obi-Wan wonders about Anakin's force potential because it's exceeding Yoda's. So Yoda was the person with the greatest force potential until Anakin has shown up.
And you ignoring the fact here that the Dark Side makes people strong faster. In Dark Rendevouz Dooku things about Yoda going dark and states he would waste Sidious in the blink of an eye. In fact Yoda defeated them both in "force battles" despite the fact that they both had chosen the "fast path to power". If Yoda ever had the intention to kill somebody with his force powers (using the Dark Side) Dooku and Sidious would have been screwed.
f) Sidious is obviously the greater Dark Side practitioner. He is far beyond Dooku there. So immersed in it that he is able to shield himself from the great Jedi like Mace and Yoda, while occupying the same damn room. I've seen where some have argued that 'Dooku was already a Jedi, people knew his 'signature'. Perhaps. I am NOT denying the possibility that Dooku was able to do it. But also possible, equally so, is that Dooku is UNABLE to do it.
Far beyond Dooku ? On the ocassions where we have seen them using force lightning they seem to be about equal. The "shielding force presence" thing is nice but useless in Dooku's case. So why would he bother to do something like that ? That doesn't prove that Sidious is the greater force user.
g) So. We've seen that in the Force, Sidious is superior. And in saber skills, Dooku isn't far above Sidious. If Sidious can contend with Yoda in equal speed as Dooku could, and fight the same way, gain advantages, gain the offensive, and still have a strong defense that Yoda can't break through, I don't see Dooku 'owning' Sidious in saber skills. If Sidious can hold Yoda The 'Tazmanian Devil' at bay, he can do it for Yoda. Which means that it will probably come down to a battle with the Force. Which Sidious 'will win'.
In a battle of force powers Sidious won't be able to overcome Dooku. Considering lightsaber skills Dooku had far more practice then Sidious, he was using the superior duelling style and he didn't get disarmed by Yoda which happened to Sidious while Yoda had some disadvantages compared to the fight with Dooku. I still say Dooku is superior in lightsaber fighting compared to Sidious.
In conclusion. I see nothing that indicates Dooku as superior to his master. If he is, it would be in saber ability, and it would only be slight. As for Force-ability (especially offensive), he is lacking when compared to his master.
Now you're leaping to conclusions. For offensive powers we have seen that Dooku isn't able to overwhelm Obi-Wan and Yoda from across the room where Sidious isn't able to do the same thing to Yoda and Mace at point black range. Where does that tell us that Sidious is superior to Dooku in offensive force powers ?
Originally posted by Borbarad
The real point here is: Mace did practice Vaapad for 27 years at the point Dooku defeated him. Vaapad is the completion of Juyo which is probably the form that Sidious was using (seeing that Maul used this form and he was trained by Sidious).So if Dooku can take a lightsaber prodigy with 27 years time of practice in a lightsaber style that is the completion of the style Sidious used how would he not be able to take Sidious himself considering the fact that Sidious had a political career running for half of his life and therefore not that much time for training.
27 years? Are you sure of that? I know I estimated 27, but it was a best-case senario for Dooku. Does anyone else have a better number(as in more likely)?
I'm afraid I agree with Nai on this. He's made some good points.
Second, I'd like to point out that Dooku DOES show instances of shielding his presence from others:
- In The Cestus Deception, Assajj Ventress uses a meditation technique that allows her to remain effectively invisible to Obi-Wan in the Force. She learned this from Dooku who had mastered it.
- Dooku meets Sidious on Coruscant, a planet with a jedi temple on it. Neither were sensed. This happens multiple times.
- Dooku walks right up to Jedi all the time and isn't sensed.