Last-Gen Console Discussions (PS3, Xbox 360, Wii)

Originally posted by LinixCobra
Back then a CD was and still is 700MB and compression techniques were not as good as they are in todays world. We also have to factor in the way developers use their coding. They could have 10 lines of code but in reality they could easily do it in 5 (for those who know about coding and have actually done it you would know that the easiest way to code is to use the long version instead of something complicated). But this is Kojima so whether he is telling the truth we cant really say until the game comes out.

Regardless, it's physically impossible to compress 50GBs of raw uncompressed data into a 9GB disc even with compression. You could contain some of it but you would have to cut out alot of features. Will there be way to compress so much information in a DVD? Much less without any data loss? I doubt it. Especially considering the costs of doing so. It would be much cheaper from a developer standpoint to take a Blu-Ray disc rather than try to compress so much information on a disc with the risk of losing data.

Would you rather try to fit a family of nine in a SUV or a small car? I would choose the SUV. And considering the Blu-Ray discs are rapidly approaching the nominal price of DVDs, it's not unreasonable to do so.

Originally posted by LinixCobra
As an IT technician I find it hard to believe 1 game already takes up almost the entire BluRay disc "compressed"... I will agree that a game such as MGS4 may take up more than 1 DVD disc but then again if MGS4 takes up 1 BluRay disc then how long do you expect this game to be? This would be the first game thats not an RPG to take up so much space.

Kojima claimed that he compressed some features of the games (like 7.1 audio) but certainly not all of it. We won't see compression of an entire 50 GB Blu-Disc for a while.

Actually, if you look it up, several other games are surpassing 9GBs of storage space already. LAIR for example is using 7 GBs for ONE level. And LAIR will have about 20 levels from what I've heard in previews.

It's length may not be an issue in MGS4. He could use the room for ANYTHING. Like textures. Or texture detailing. Or environments. He could devote an entire GB solely for facial expressions.

I agree with what you are saying but I am just saying from what Kojima said I find it hard to believe. A game like MGS4 shouldnt take up 50GB of space... thats all im saying.

Actually it's not the first time's he's complained about space. Kojima did the same thing with MGS4 regarding the DVD.

He's a top developer though, so I give him a benefit of a doubt.

I suspect he's gonna devote much of the game's storage space to graphics, sound and gameplay. Like Gears of War.

If a game like Mass Effect can be put on 1 disc, I think MGS4 can be also.

But really, when has a console war be won, or played out by how much space a game takes up? I think its pretty much pointless.

"my console is better because my games take up 10 gigs worth of space and your games take up only 8 gigs worth of space."

If Kojima says is true, it can't. 50 GBs cannot be put on a normal DVD even with compression. 4 DVDs? Sure.

It has nothing to do with the console war or which console will win...

It has to do with the evolution of gaming development. Alot of storage space (if used correctly) can be used to make games with features, graphics, sound, gameplay, etc. that were not possible in earlier formats. We won't see the true potential of Blu-Ray for quite awhile.

What's interesting, is that MGS4, using that much data uncompressed (uncompressed simply means better in terms of quality) allows the game's functions to exceed that of a DVD format if used correctly.

Which is why we could possibly see pre-rendered like CG cinemas be turned into actual gameplay. Square-Enix claims they push this envelope with FFXIII.

Looking at history, I hardly think storage space matters. Inadequate storage space hasn't stopped developers before. Let's look at just my library...

Tales of Destiny 2 (Eternia): 3 discs.
Final Fantasy VII: 3 discs.
FFVIII: 4 discs.
Resident Evil: 2 GC discs.
Resident Evil 4: 2 GC discs.
Metal Gear Solid The Twin Snakes: 2 GC discs.
Tales of Symphonia: 2 GC discs.

Seems to me that developers don't particularly care about the size of the storage medium. They just use more of it.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Looking at history, I hardly think storage space matters. Inadequate storage space hasn't stopped developers before. Let's look at just my library...

Tales of Destiny 2 (Eternia): 3 discs.
Final Fantasy VII: 3 discs.
FFVIII: 4 discs.
Resident Evil: 2 GC discs.
Resident Evil 4: 2 GC discs.
Metal Gear Solid The Twin Snakes: 2 GC discs.
Tales of Symphonia: 2 GC discs.

Seems to me that developers don't particularly care about the size of the storage medium. They just use more of it.

If that were true they wouldn't have moved from CD to DVD.

When they reach the 50gigs that would be like 70 cd's and 6 or 7 dvd's. Developers would hate to split a game into 60 cd's or 7 dvd's when they could just use 1 blu-ray disk.

In my eyes blu-ray is the only thing that puts PS3 above everyone else. A Ps3 without blu-ray would just be an xbox360 and I already have one of them.

Originally posted by Smasandian
If a game like Mass Effect can be put on 1 disc, I think MGS4 can be also.

Also a game like Oblivion was on a single disc for the 360.

Originally posted by Draco69
If Kojima says is true, it can't. 50 GBs cannot be put on a normal DVD even with compression. 4 DVDs? Sure.

It has nothing to do with the console war or which console will win...

It has to do with the evolution of gaming development. Alot of storage space (if used correctly) can be used to make games with features, graphics, sound, gameplay, etc. that were not possible in earlier formats. We won't see the true potential of Blu-Ray for quite awhile.

What's interesting, is that MGS4, using that much data uncompressed (uncompressed simply means better in terms of quality) allows the game's functions to exceed that of a DVD format if used correctly.

Which is why we could possibly see pre-rendered like CG cinemas be turned into actual gameplay. Square-Enix claims they push this envelope with FFXIII.

They claim and they say that, and then they say this. Kojima says its 50 GBs worth of information. I say, if a game like Mass Effect, which is probably longer, uses alot more audio and graphics because its an RPG and they can put into an single 360 disc, why cant Kojima can? Maybe, because he doesnt want too.

Look at DirkDirden post, " the Blu Ray is the only reason the PS3 is put above everybody else." That sure sounds like somebody saying the PS3 will win because it can hold more information.

First of all, about the whole "Mass Effect" and "Elder Scrolls 4" stuff. Remember, that storage isn't only about how much space you get to move around in, or how much items you could use. Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion had preety good graphics, but not something that made my head explode. The races didn't look that real to me as well.

Mass Effect? We'll just have to wait and see. It's impossible to say that about Mass Effect. We haven't seen Mass Effect, we only heard about it, and it could turn out to be a pile of shit.

Storage is also used for the following : Audio, Special Features, Graphics, Detailing, Designing, Smarter AI. So it's not such a big surprise to see a non RPG take up alot of space, because it can just take alot of great features and put them in.

Kojima is one of the top notch game producers/makers, I don't think he would lie THAT much. Maybe a few GB or so, but if he's lying about 50GB, I don't think he would do that.

Smasandian, Mass Effect is coming from the producers of KOTOR. How in the hell can you predict it will have better audio and graphics?! You can't catergorize graphics level by type of game. Runescape is an MMORPG, Gears of War, is a FPS. By your logic, Runescape will have better graphics.

Why would Kojima not want to store all the space on one disk? It's a much better deal with them, he will spend less money producing one disc for each game, and will make a biigger profit.

There are two expansions for Elder Scroll IV. One is available at XBL and the other is coming soon. No need to buy extra discs (unless you have the PC version) I mean, if Obsidian can fit all that in the game...I really don't see why can't Kojima do the same.

Originally posted by Spidervlad
It's a much better deal with them, he will spend less money producing one disc for each game, and will make a biigger profit.

I believe this has been covered before, but the price of a disc is minimal. Cents for materials, and cents for the data transcribing process. Otherwise, a double-disc game would cost much more than a normal one, but that's not the case.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Looking at history, I hardly think storage space matters. Inadequate storage space hasn't stopped developers before. Let's look at just my library...

Tales of Destiny 2 (Eternia): 3 discs.
Final Fantasy VII: 3 discs.
FFVIII: 4 discs.
Resident Evil: 2 GC discs.
Resident Evil 4: 2 GC discs.
Metal Gear Solid The Twin Snakes: 2 GC discs.
Tales of Symphonia: 2 GC discs.

Seems to me that developers don't particularly care about the size of the storage medium. They just use more of it.

Actually that's the issue. They DO care about storage space. Why? Money. Costs. It costs large amounts of money to use tech devs to compress large amounts of information on a DVD.

From a developer standpoint, which would make more sense? Simple cost-benefit analysis (imaginary numbers of course):

Game information; raw and uncompressed: 30 GB

DVD9: 9GB storage

Cost of compression: $1000

Cost of lossless: $500

Cost of texture smoothing: $600

Blu-Ray Disc: 50G Dual-Layer Storage

Cost of compression, lossless, texture smoothing?: $0

There are an unprecedented amount of costs to smoosh a game like Elder Scrolls or Mass Effect into a small disc capacity.

Let's do history. We went from cartridges to CD-ROM. Cartridges cost more to compress infomation into in comparision to CD-ROM which had far more room and nullified compression costs and designer creativity. Which is why we transfered to CD-ROM. That was one generation transition. Next-generation we transferred from CD-ROM to DVD. Same principle as last generation.

By logic, it would make sense to transfer from DVD to another high storage format as we have done for that last few generations.

More storage means more expansion of gaming for consumers and less costs incurred on producers.

We certainly cannot see why we could POSSIBLY need that much room for games with Elder-Scrolls. But we said the same thing the last generation. We were functioning just fine with CD-ROMs. 9GB of information?! PS1 games barely use 700 MB! And look where we are now. The DVD is already filled to the brim and compressed to hell.

Another point to make is the cost of using multiple DVDs in comparision to Blu-Ray. A Blu-Ray has two costs (one negative as of now and one positive.) First, the disc is difficult for producers to encode because they haven't figured it out yet especially with the early-model dev kits. Second, the Blu-Ray producer unit is now comparable to a producer unit of DVD. It's slightly more expensive but that will change in the future.

Using cost benefit analysis (again made up numbers to make the point):

LAIR : 35GB

DVD: 9 GB

(Assuming no compression for imaginary)

Total DVDs Required: 5 discs

Cost of DVDs for Production: $4.00

Cost of DVD encoding: 10 cents

Cost of Blu-Ray for Production: $6.00

Cost of Blu-Ray encoding: $2.00

Logically, which would a developer prefer? The Blu-Ray disc of course since the cost of using 5 discs outweigh the cost of using on disc for only 6 bucks. These are of course simplistic but it reflects the current situation of storage need.

We're always going to need more storage. People really need to look ahead. I mean YEARS ahead. The DVD has already been filled to the burly brim. In about five years when graphics, sound and gameplay reach a whole new level, I just don't think the DVD will cut it.

Anymore than the CD-ROM or the cartridge.

Now, do we really need Blu-Ray? No. We can still use DVD with compression to meet our current needs. But in a couple of years when technology breaks new ground with gameplay that looks like pre-rendered CG and whole fantastic worlds to explore? No, I don't think so.

And I think Microsoft will follow suit soon enough with their HD-DVD. Which is called the Zephyr. Basically it's a PS3 made from Microsoft with an internal HD-DVD drive that plays HD-DVDs encoded games. It will presumbably release in a couple of years if not sooner. And it will be within the same price range as the PS3.

Originally posted by Smasandian
They claim and they say that, and then they say this. Kojima says its 50 GBs worth of information. I say, if a game like Mass Effect, which is probably longer, uses alot more audio and graphics because its an RPG and they can put into an single 360 disc, why cant Kojima can? Maybe, because he doesnt want too.

I would say that Kojima is breaking new ground with MGS4. (And he's always been an advocate of uncompressed games). As stated before, games like Mass Effect are filling the DVD to the brim.

As of now 2007, developers can still use DVDs to good potential.

Just like like in 1999, when the CD-ROM still had good potential. It's last breath of air was probably Final Fantasy IX.

And in the following years, developers streamed over to the DVD format that allowed more freedom and less costs for compression to be used on CD-ROMs. Same thing happened with cartridges.

Originally posted by Smasandian
Look at DirkDirden post, " the Blu Ray is the only reason the PS3 is put above everybody else." That sure sounds like somebody saying the PS3 will win because it can hold more information.

Yeah...

That's Dirk. So...?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
There are two expansions for Elder Scroll IV. One is available at XBL and the other is coming soon. No need to buy extra discs (unless you have the PC version) I mean, if Obsidian can fit all that in the game...I really don't see why can't Kojima do the same.

Again, let's take a trip to the past.

Could we imagine a game like Ratchet and Clank or Elder Scroll or Gears of War in 1999? No. It's graphics, sound, textures, everything was beyond what we could imagine because we were still playing Dino Crisis and Resident Evil III using blocky polygons and limited camera angles.

As of today, can we imagine a game that uses 50 GB or more WITHOUT compression? No. Not really. I guess a game that looks like FFVII: AC in gameplay would be cool. But we don't see how it could surpass the likes of Oblivion. Because it's the best video game environment our current storage medium can offer.

It's really about thinking beyond the box. Today, we can't see how a game could POSSIBLY be grander and/or bigger than a game as grand and big as Oblivion. But we've been dumbfounded in the past with introduction of FFX, Halo and Gears of War after seeing clunky polygons and worlds confined to a box and I predict we'll be dumbfounded again.

It's all about potential. Can you imagine a game that uses 50GB of information without compression? Can you imagine a game seven years from now that uses nearly 300 GBs of information? No, we really can't. But we will in the future. And that's what its about. The future.

We think we don't need more storage, but if we want our games to break the envelope into what REALLY be considered as next-generation we need more storage. Just like we did for the last three generations.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
I believe this has been covered before, but the price of a disc is minimal. Cents for materials, and cents for the data transcribing process. Otherwise, a double-disc game would cost much more than a normal one, but that's not the case.

The price of CD-ROM was minimal in comparision to a DVD in the nineties. It was easy to program. Cost as much as dust to use as materials.

However, the tide quickly changed when the producer unit cost of DVDs was comparable to CD-ROM.

Same thing will likely happen with HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray.

And I'm not talking about movies. I'm talking about using them as storage media.

Here are some quotes regarding the lack of storage (and rising costs to compress DVDs) from top developers. Kojima isn't the only one complaining about lack of space:

Quote:
"The Darkness" developer:

"The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD... thats really a problem."
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=446554

Quote:
Team Ninja:

"The infamous Team Ninja front man has a thing or two to say about Microsoft's decision to assign standard DVD format to the Xbox 360. Limiting his development team to a measly 9GB does not sit well with Itagaki, especially when Team Ninja is looking to include any number of (MS-coveted) HD cut scenes.
http://www.joystiq.com/2005/07/05/it...0-limitations/

Quote:
Vivendi Universal:

"The technical requirement for game development today demands more advanced optical-disc technologies," said Michael Heilmann, chief technology officer for Vivendi Universal.
"Blu-ray offers the capacity, performance and high-speed internet connectivity to take us into the future of gaming."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

Quote:
EA

"EA, a leading games developer and publisher, added that the delivery of high-definition games of the future was vital and Blu-ray had the capacity, functionality and interactivity needed for the kinds of projects it was planning."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

Quote:
Mar Rein:

"Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks."

Quote:
Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto:

"Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting."

To me is simple math:

Game file sizes have been increasing generation after generation and consequently enough so has the media holding said games.

I think HD-DVD and/or Blu-Rays will be the next chosen format for games in this generation.

We're barely four months into the next-generation. This generation will last about seven to ten years just like the last generation.

DVDs are beginning to fill up and compression isn't going to be enough. It is for now. But for next year? And the next? And the next...?

Could you maybe make use of the edit button instead of making 5 posts in a row?

Originally posted by Lana
Could you maybe make use of the edit button instead of making 5 posts in a row?

And why?

They're replies to different members' post.

Which I'm allowed to do...

😐

No, actually there's a multi-quote function and making tons of multiple posts when you're within the edit limit generally just annoys everyone.