Mormons

Page 1:

*["We Mormons are Christian and we believe the Bible."]

***Mormons are NOT Christians...and are a distinctly American home-grown "peep" cult. Too, you do not view the Bible as the Word of God...but only as history...and not a sufficient guide. Below I will detail for our internet audience what you REALLY believe...and HOW and WHY you are NOT Christians and are, in reality, a POLYTHIESTIC CULT of gigantic proportions.

(A)The Mormon View Of Scripture
(1)What do Mormons believe about the Bible? In the Mormon work titled the Pearl Of Great Price we read: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as itis translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God"
(2)Early Mormon apostle Orson Pratt in his book The Seer gives us his view of the Bible: "But the Bible has been robbed of its plainess; many sacred books having been lost, others rejected by the Romish Church, and what few we have left, were copied and re-copied so many times, that it is admitted that almost every verse has been corrupted and
mutilated to that degree that scarcely any two of them read alike."
(3)Mormon founder Joseph Smith in the work The Teachings Of The Prophet Joseph Smith compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, relates his views concerning the Bible: "From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled."
(4)In this same work in a small section titled "Errors in the Bible" we find more of Joseph Smith's views about the reliability of the Bible:
"Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt
priests have committed many errors"

(Continued)

Page 2:

(5)Orson Hyde in the Journal of Discourses has this to say about the Bible: "The words contained in this Bible are merely a history of what is
gone by; it was never given to guide the servant of God in the course he should pursue. The Bible is not a sufficient guide, it is only the history of the people who lived 1800 years ago."
(6)Bruce R. McConkie in his work titled Mormon Doctrine sets forth his belief that the Bible has been perverted by men: "The great perversion of the scriptures, in which many plain and precious truths were deleted by evilly [sic] disposed persons (1 Ne. 13), took place primarily in the early centuries of the Christian Era."
(7)In the Book Of Mormon itself we find in 1 Nephi 13:28-29: "Wherefore, thou seest that after the book [Bible] hath gone forth
through the hands of the great abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book of the Lamb of God.... --because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, [Bible] which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God --because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceeding great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them."

It is quite clear that the extra-Biblical revelations of the Mormons serve to attack and undermine confidence in Holy Scripture. The Bible is received as Scripture but with a pronounced reservation, namely "as far as it is translated correctly". A careful study of Mormonism will reveal that whenever the Bible does not agree with other Mormon doctrines, then this is where the Bible is believed to be in error.

It is claimed that Joseph Smith's "inspired version" corrects many of the supposed errors in Bible. Since Smith did not read Hebrew or Greek or have extant manuscripts to work with during his supposed translation...one can legitimately question just how Smith's bible can be called a translation at all. Smith's translation was supposedly done in a similar fashion as The Book of Mormon.

(Continued)

Page 3:

As in all sub-Christian sects one finds in Mormonism a depreciation of the Bible. This serves to create a dependence upon extra-Biblical revelation. In Mormonism this takes two forms: Other books, and the
pronouncements of the Mormon leaders.

(1)The Authority and Sufficiency of Scripture

Since the Christian recognizes the authority of Scripture we will examine what God has revealed in the Bible about his word. The Bible provides a powerful testimony concerning itself. God has clearly spoken in the
Bible. We can have the utmost confidence in Scripture. We will see five important truths concerning the Scriptures.

1. The testimony of Scripture concerning itself.
2. The Bible consisting of the Old and New Testaments is the word of God.
3. The word of God was to be written down.
4. The sufficiency of Scripture.
5. The closing of the canon of Scripture, the ceasing of divine revelation.

(A) The Old Testament:

The following passages give biblical rationale for putting in the word of God. They also establish that the Old Testament is the word of God. Because of this, there is no reason to doubt the completeness of Scripture.

(Continued)

Page 4:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall
ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandment of the Lord your God which I command you." (Deut. 4:2)

"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." (Psalm
119:105)
"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:5-6)

"Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded." (Proverbs 13:13)

"The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand forever." (Isaiah 40:8)

"These were more noble minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17:11)

The above verse from Acts 17:11 deals primarily with the Old Testament Scriptures. This is because the New Testament was in the process of being given and complied.

"...the Scripture cannot be broken." (John 10:35)

Unquestionably, according to our Lord here in John the Scriptures are set forth as the FINAL COURT of APPEAL. How does the prophecy Scripture come? Consider the Apostle Peter’s words:

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (II Peter 1:20-21)

The next verse tells us what was committed to the Jewish people:

"Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." (Rom. 3:2)

Jesus in this next passage from Luke is referring to the Old Testament. He DID NOT believe any portions of Scripture has DISAPPEARED.

Page 5:

"And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." (Luke 24:27)

In the next passage Jesus tells the disciples the most important testimony of the Scriptures:
"
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and
they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39)

The apostle Paul gives the believer confidence in the Old Testament Scriptures in this next passage from Romans:

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." (Romans 15:4)

In Luke's gospel we see clear indication for the Old Testament canon:

"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." (Luke 24:44)

This verse refers to the three sections of the Old Testament canon. The Old Testament canon consisted of the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings in which the Psalms was a part. There was clearly, a distinguishable structure to the Old Testament.

In the following passage we find more confirmation for a distinguishable canon of Scripture in Christ's day:

"That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation. From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, it shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:50,51).

The death of Zechariah is found recorded in II Chronicles 24:20,21. At first sight this seems to present a problem because of the order of our Bibles today. It seems to exclude any Old Testament books following II
Chronicles.

(Continued)

yawn

All joking and long-winded satirical representations aside, lets actually get back on track with the initial argument..

Originally posted by docb77
Maybe it's just me, but it would seem that it is a very biblical belief that we can be like Christ.

[b]Romans 8:16-17

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. [/B]

Ask yourself this question Doc, despite being your father's son..and "heir" to share in all that he owns, do you really think that it would be logical or loving to then claim that you were your own father?

To me it wouldn't be, seeing as how taking away something that belongs to someone, specifically a title which represents authority or reverence they are entitled to, is not very loving. In doing this one has essentially claimed that the individual you've taken this title away from, does not truly deserve it.

A father will always be a father, and a son will always be a son; each of these individuals possesses a unique role within the father's house, despite whether or not the father grants partial ownership of the house to his children.

I don't truly know the intentions of you or Regret's hearts, so I can't comment on whether or not you are Christians. But I can comment on the fact that the Mormon doctrine is clearly not a loving one.

I hope that you both have realized how truly unloving it is within the context of this argument.

Originally posted by Thundar
All joking and long-winded satirical representations aside, lets actually get back on track with the initial argument..

Ask yourself this question Doc, despite being your father's son..and "heir" to share in all that he owns, do you really think that it would be logical or loving to then claim that you were your own father?

To me it wouldn't be, seeing as how taking away something that belongs to someone, specifically a title which represents authority or reverence they are entitled to, is not very loving. In doing this one has essentially claimed that the individual you've taken this title away from, does not truly deserve it.

A father will always be a father, and a son will always be a son; each of these individuals possesses a unique role within the father's house, despite whether or not the father grants partial ownership of the house to his children.

I don't truly know the intentions of you or Regret's hearts, so I can't comment on whether or not you are Christians. But I can comment on the fact that the Mormon doctrine is clearly not a loving one.

I hope that you both have realized how truly unloving it is within the context of this argument.

You are quite correct in saying that I can never be my own father. And I have never claimed that I would be my own god or your god or anyone else in the worlds god. God will always be my god, even if I live well enough and with enough faith to achieve the end that I'm striving for.

However, While I can't become my own father, I can become a father. I can fulfill the same role with my own children. My father would still be my father, and I would be the father of my children. God would still be my God in the same way.

Page 6:

In Christ's day the canon of the Old Testament had the book of Chronicles, which was not then divided, placed out of historical order in the Jewish canon and was found after Ezra and Nehemiah, thus making it the last book. So according to this order Zecharias was the last sufferer at the hands of the Old Testament religious apostates. The
testimony of the Scriptures stands sure. There was indeed a distinguishable Old Testament canon in Christ’s day. Hopefully, those who have attempted to cast doubt on the Scriptural canon will not miss this. The Old Testament people of God knew that they possessed the Word of God, and consequently, were careful in handling the text of
Scripture. The New Testament people of God were no less careful.

B.The New Testament:

The following passages show the view of the writers of the New Testament and their view of it's AUTHORITY:

"But what went ye out for to see? A prophet yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (Matthew 11:9-11)

These above verses teach three points that are relevant🙁1) John was a prophet; (2) "Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist." Thus, John was greater than the Old
Testament prophets;(3) and the "least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." In which case, the New Testament prophets were greater than John. The Biblical, and indeed, logical conclusion is that the New Testament prophets were also inspired by God just like the Old Testament prophets. This is why the apostle Peter says:

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy"…(II Peter 1:19)

(Continued)

I just found out that mormons are very different. They try and drag you in their way of living, if you dont obide/disagree with it you tend to have a conflict between them😖

Originally posted by soin2cal
I just found out that mormons are very different. They try and drag you in their way of living, if you dont obide/disagree with it you tend to have a conflict between them😖

Originally posted by docb77
You are quite correct in saying that I can never be my own father. And I have never claimed that I would be my own god or your god or anyone else in the worlds god. God will always be my god, even if I live well enough and with enough faith to achieve the end that I'm striving for.

However, While I can't become my own father, I can become a father. I can fulfill the same role with my own children. My father would still be my father, and I would be the father of my children. God would still be my God in the same way.

God is a title and position which is specifically used for one that deserves it. Unlike the individuals we see on this earth and those in the heavens, the one who deserves such a title has proved himself worthy of possessing it to all of his creation, by selflessly volunteering himself within the place of us to bear the burden of sin. No one in heaven nor on earth offered to undertake such a responsability, save the God that we worship. Why deny him of such a title, after such a noble and loving sacrifice?

Sure, we may at some point demonstrate some of the good qualities that he possesses, and share some of the good things with him, but the loving thing for us to do is acknowledge where we received it from.

I wouldn't claim that I was my father, despite the fact that I was a father myself. Nor would I claim that I was entitled to everything he gave me, despite the fact that I knew being a loving father he would give these things to me freely.

So regardless of how one tries to rationalize it, calling themselves a "God" diminishes the title, the nature of the love that our God freely gives to us, as well as the sacrifice that Christ himself has made.

Originally posted by Thundar
All joking and long-winded satirical representations aside, lets actually get back on track with the initial argument..

Ask yourself this question Doc, despite being your father's son..and "heir" to share in all that he owns, do you really think that it would be logical or loving to then claim that you were your own father?

To me it wouldn't be, seeing as how taking away something that belongs to someone, specifically a title which represents authority or reverence they are entitled to, is not very loving. In doing this one has essentially claimed that the individual you've taken this title away from, does not truly deserve it.

A father will always be a father, and a son will always be a son; each of these individuals possesses a unique role within the father's house, despite whether or not the father grants partial ownership of the house to his children.

I don't truly know the intentions of you or Regret's hearts, so I can't comment on whether or not you are Christians. But I can comment on the fact that the Mormon doctrine is clearly not a loving one.

I hope that you both have realized how truly unloving it is within the context of this argument.

P.S. I have ignored you, Marchello, due to what appears to be little more than a rant. You stated many things that yes we believe, one being the position on the Bible. The Bible is flawed, there are seldom two translations that are the same, without divine revelation the Bible is a poor foundation for belief. This is why mainstream Christianity is dying, it is based in a concept it claims no longer occur, God speaks to man, without this Christian religion is a fairy tale. Christian religions almost uniformly claim that God no longer does, thus nearly all of Christianity is in decay. Mainstream Christianity is a confused writhing mass of error, and God stated in the Bible that he is not the author of confusion. The true Christian religion is a cohesive force, and I am glad we, Mormons, are not considered a part of your confused mass of "Christians", we are Christians and we are cohesive and without confusion.

Originally posted by Regret
The same as atheists, Catholics, republicans, democrats, cognitive psychologists, women, men, whites, blacks, europeans, arabs, Star Wars geeks, Jocks, etc.

I see you left out behavioral psychologists and Star Trek geeks . . . I smell bias

They were in the "etc." 😉 But yes I was being a little biased as far as the behavioral psychologists... although ask any cognitive psychologist about their experience with a Skinnarian behavior analyst and you'll find we come into great conflict oftentimes 😉

Regret - yes, however theyre more pushy towards christians/catholics than some other religions. I accept its thr way they are, just saying that we may not so much get along with them because they try and push you into their religion and its silly. But the way they are of course.

Originally posted by soin2cal
Regret - yes, however theyre more pushy towards christians/catholics than some other religions. I accept its thr way they are, just saying that we may not so much get along with them because they try and push you into their religion and its silly. But the way they are of course.

Then why do Mormons believe that Lucifer and Jesus are brothers? to my understanding, and why mormons don't believe that jesus is god in the flesh and that there is a holy trinity.

Jesus's divinity and the trinity are issues in many more cults of Christianity than Mormonism. You cna find those debates in any branch of the church, going back to its formation.

As to the first one..I've never heard that. Ask Regret.

Originally posted by the Darkone
Then why do Mormons believe that Lucifer and Jesus are brothers? to my understanding, and why mormons don't believe that jesus is god in the flesh and that there is a holy trinity.

You must realize that Mormons do not believe God made an end of speaking to man, we believe that prophets exist today, and God speaks to them. Thus God's word is by no means limited only to the Bible, even though the Bible is the word of God insofar as it has been translated and recorded correctly.

Here is our scripture that describes what occurred in heaven:

Abraham 3:16-28

16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.
17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it.
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.
19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.
20 The Lord thy God sent his angel to deliver thee from the hands of the priest of Elkenah.
21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

Doctrine and Covenants 29:36

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

And then from the LDS Bible dictionary:

Bible Dictionary, excerpt from the entry on the Devil

The devil is the enemy of righteousness and of those who seek to do the will of God. Literally a spirit son of God, he was at one time “an angel” in authority in the presence of God; however, he rebelled in the premortal life, at which time he persuaded a third of the spirit children of the Father to rebel with him, in opposition to the plan of salvation championed by Jehovah (Jesus Christ). “Thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29: 37). They were cast out of heaven, and were denied the experience of mortal bodies and earth life (Isa. 14: 12-15; Rev. 14: 4-9; 2 Ne. 2: 17; 2 Ne. 9: 8; D&C 29: 36-38; D&C 76: 25-26; D&C 93: 25; Moses 4: 1-4; Abr. 3: 27-28).