Mormons

Originally posted by finti
😂 😂 you christians always looks for scapegoats even though the biggest sinners toward jesus was the one who followed and follows this jesus ways

Umm. We're all enemies of God. He's just cool enough to keep us around and not go apecrap on us. That's called love buddy, the ability to control oneself and not to go apecrap, knowing that everyone around you is really vile and worthy of getting a beatdown. So it doesn't really matter how much we do or how much we follow, cause anything we do he can do infinitely better. In the end, the intentions of the individual's heart is really all that matters, as well as the faith they have in Christ.

What does this have to do with Mormonism? Well Morman doctrine implies that the works come first, and that faith in Christ less important. So that among many other reasons listed within this thread is why Mormonism is not a Christian doctrine. I think I tied that all in quite nicely.😉

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*["You keep calling us a cult and I strongly object to that designation. Its one thing to call a group a cult but it is another thing to prove it."]

***Correct. So lets see what a "cult" is by definition and by practice.

A "non-Christian cult" or "non-Christian religion" is a group that MAY or may NOT include the Bible in its set of authoritative scriptures. If it does include the Bible, it DISTORTS the TRUE biblical doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently so as to avoid salvation. What makes something non-Christian is when it DENIES the ESSENTIAL doctrines of the Bible: (1)The absolute DEITY of Jesus Christ, which involves the Trinity, (2)The Resurrection, and (3)Salvatioin by Grace. ALL of them ADD to the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Some cult groups even ADD to the Bible, [i.e., Mormons] which has the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price...plus pronouncements by the church councils on the sayings of the prophet Joe Smith.

Cults ADD their own EFFORTS, their own WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS to the FINISHED work of salvation ACCOMPLISHED by Jesus Christ on the cross. All cults say that Jesus' SACRIFICE is SUFFICIENT, but our WORKS must be "mixed with" or "added to" His in order to PROVE we are saved and WORTHY of salvation. They say one thing...but believe ANOTHER. They maintain that they must PROVE themselves WORTHY...and that they must try their best to PLEASE God and PROVE to Him that they are SINCERE, have WORKED hard, and are then WORTHY to be with Him. In other words, they do their BEST...and God takes care of the rest.

There is no doubt that they are SINCERE...but they are SINCERELY WRONG! The Bible says that we are SAVED by GRACE...NOT of WORKS "For by GRACE you have been SAVED through FAITH...NOT as a RESULT of WORKS, that NO ONE should BOAST" [Ephesians 2:8-9]; not by anything we do "For we maintain that a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH apart from WORKS of the LAW" [Romans 3:28]. Because if there was anything that we could do to merit the FORGIVENESS of our SINS...then Jesus died NEEDLESSLY..."nevertheless knowing that a man is NOT justified by the WORKS of the LAW but through FAITH in Christ Jesus, even we have BELIEVED in Christ Jesus, that we may be JUSTIFIED by FAITH in Christ Jesus, and NOT by the WORKS of the LAW; since by the WORKS of the LAW shall NO flesh be JUSTIFIED...I DO NOT nullify the GRACE of God; for if RIGHTEOUSNESS comes through the LAW, then Christ died NEEDLESSLY [Galatians 2:16, 21].

(Continued)

Originally posted by Thundar

What does this have to do with Mormonism? Well Mormon doctrine implies that the works come first, and that faith in Christ less important. So that among many other reasons listed within this thread is why Mormonism is not a Christian doctrine. I think I tied that all in quite nicely.😉

I wouldn't say that's entirely accurate. It would be better to say that we believe them to be inseparable. Without both without faith there are no good works; without works, faith is dead.

Pretty much in line with what James 2 teaches.

Originally posted by M*******o

***Correct. So lets see what a "cult" is by definition and by practice.

Here is my definition.

1.

1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
2. The followers of such a religion or sect.
3. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
4. The object of such devotion.

2.A system or community of religious worship and ritual.

3.The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.

4.A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

5.
1. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
2. The object of such devotion.

6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

So mormons could be a cult but so could any christian sect. Even KMC could be a cult.

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Originally posted by Marchello
Page 1:

*["You keep calling us a cult and I strongly object to that designation. Its one thing to call a group a cult but it is another thing to prove it."]

***Correct. So lets see what a "cult" is by definition and by practice.

A "non-Christian cult" or "non-Christian religion" is a group that MAY or may NOT include the Bible in its set of authoritative scriptures. If it does include the Bible, it DISTORTS the TRUE biblical doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently so as to avoid salvation. What makes something non-Christian is when it DENIES the ESSENTIAL doctrines of the Bible: (1)The absolute DEITY of Jesus Christ, which involves the Trinity, (2)The Resurrection, and (3)Salvatioin by Grace. ALL of them ADD to the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Some cult groups even ADD to the Bible, [i.e., Mormons] which has the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price...plus pronouncements by the church councils on the sayings of the prophet Joe Smith.

Cults ADD their own EFFORTS, their own WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS to the FINISHED work of salvation ACCOMPLISHED by Jesus Christ on the cross. All cults say that Jesus' SACRIFICE is SUFFICIENT, but our WORKS must be "mixed with" or "added to" His in order to PROVE we are saved and WORTHY of salvation. They say one thing...but believe ANOTHER. They maintain that they must PROVE themselves WORTHY...and that they must try their best to PLEASE God and PROVE to Him that they are SINCERE, have WORKED hard, and are then WORTHY to be with Him. In other words, they do their BEST...and God takes care of the rest.

There is no doubt that they are SINCERE...but they are SINCERELY WRONG! The Bible says that we are SAVED by GRACE...NOT of WORKS "For by GRACE you have been SAVED through FAITH...NOT as a RESULT of WORKS, that NO ONE should BOAST" [Ephesians 2:8-9]; not by anything we do "For we maintain that a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH apart from WORKS of the LAW" [Romans 3:28]. Because if there was anything that we could do to merit the FORGIVENESS of our SINS...then Jesus died NEEDLESSLY..."nevertheless knowing that a man is NOT justified by the WORKS of the LAW but through FAITH in Christ Jesus, even we have BELIEVED in Christ Jesus, that we may be JUSTIFIED by FAITH in Christ Jesus, and NOT by the WORKS of the LAW; since by the WORKS of the LAW shall NO flesh be JUSTIFIED...I DO NOT nullify the GRACE of God; for if RIGHTEOUSNESS comes through the LAW, then Christ died NEEDLESSLY [Galatians 2:16, 21].

(Continued)

People in cults will often cite [James 2:26] where it says that FAITH without WORKS is DEAD in an attempt to demonstrate that works are PART of becoming SAVED. While it is true that Faith WITHOUT works IS DEAD...it ISN'T the WORKS that SAVE us. James is saying that IF you have REAL and TRUE faith...IT will RESULT in REAL and TRUE works of Christianity. In other words, you DO good works BECAUSE you ARE saved...NOT to GET saved! He isn't saying that our WORKS are WHAT saves us, or that they in COMBINATION with the FINISHED WORK of Christ, save us. James is telling us that IF we SAY we have FAITH [James 2:14] but have NO WORKS in CORRESPONDENCE with that FAITH...then THAT FAITH won't save us BECAUSE it is a DEAD FAITH. This agrees with Paul who tells us that FAITH is WHAT saves us. "Therefore having been JUSTIFIED by FAITH, we have PEACE with God THROUGH our Lord Jesus Christ" [Romans 5:1]. This FAITH is REAL faith, or TRUE saving FAITH...NOT just an empty MENTAL ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of God's existence which is what those who "say" they have FAITH but show NO corresponding GODLINESS are guilty of. Incidently, you should realize that FAITH is only as good as WHO you put into it. Just as having faith in something DOESN'T mean you're saved. That is why it is important to have the TRUE Jesus, because if you have great faith...but it is the WRONG Jesus...then your faith is USELESS. In Mormonism, Jesus is the BROTHER of the Devil begotten through SEXUAL INTERCOURSE from a "god" who came from another planet. The only TRUE Jesus is the ONE of the Bible, the one who is PRAYED TO [1 Corinthians 1:1-2;Psalm 116:1;Acts 7:55-60] WORSHIPPED [Matthew 2:2, 11;14:33;John 9:35-38;Hebrews 1:8], and called God [John 20:28;Colossians 2:9]. The Jesus of the Cults is NOT prayed to...worshipped...or called God. And since the Jesus of the Bible is the ONLY ONE who reveals the Father [Luke 10:22] so that you may have ETERNAL LIFE [John 17:3], you MUST have the TRUE Jesus who ALONE is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE [John 14:6].

Marchello

Okay who likes mormons and who does not?

*["What gives you the right to come on this board and make the harsh judgments that you make against the Mormons and call them a cult?"]

***Well, to pronounce another religious group to be false can seem a pompous undertaking...especially in a culture that preaches TOLERANCE for EVERYTHING from HOMOSEXUALITY to a mother's "right" to KILL her UNBORN child. TOLERANCE is the BANNER that UNITES much of our culture and anyone who points a JUDGING finger at someone or something is often RIDICULED.

But Christians are told in the Bible to SEPARATE themselves from the SINFUL practices of man and to EXPOSE error... "Examine ALL things and HOLD FAST to THAT which is TRUE" says God's word [1 Thessalonians 5:21]...so we DO.

What does it mean to examine if we DO NOT JUDGE what is RIGHT and WRONG? Jesus JUDGED the Pharisees as HYPOCRITES. Peter JUDGED Ananias and Saphira as LIARS [Acts 5:3-4]. Paul JUDGED the Galatians as FOOLS [Galatians 3:1].

The REASON something can be said to be RIGHT or WRONG is because the Bible has LAID out before us a MORAL and DOCTRINAL STANDARD that is CLEAR. It is WRONG to LIE. So, we are able to say to someone who LIES, "What you are doing is WRONG." THAT is MAKING a JUDGMENT.

Likewise, with the CULTS, as Christians we are COMMANDED to be able to give ANSWERS to everyone [1 Peter 3:15] and to CONTEND for the FAITH that was delivered by the Apostles [Jude 4].

To make a judgment means that we must recognize that there are ABSOLUTES. In a world that WORSHIPS relativism, ABSOLUTES are NOT welcome...and the cults that espouse their DEMONIC doctrines beg TOLERANCE.

Being a Christian means to STAND for the TRUTH of God's WORD...NOT a compromising collection of BELIEFS that CHANGES as people's whims change. The cults are cults because they DENY the TRUE God...add WORKS to salvation...and CORRUPT a multitude of biblical TRUTHS. Their END and the END of ALL who FOLLOW them is DAMNATION in HELL. To do anything other than WARN people about them would be UNLOVING.

Marchello

Originally posted by Marchello
***Well, to pronounce another religious group to be false can seem a pompous undertaking...especially in a culture that preaches TOLERANCE for EVERYTHING from HOMOSEXUALITY to a mother's "right" to KILL her UNBORN child. TOLERANCE is the BANNER that UNITES much of our culture and anyone who points a JUDGING finger at someone or something is often RIDICULED.

You love your CAPITALS don't you? Is this another example of Christians cannibalising one another's beliefs? No wonder Christianity is in decline in places where people can sit back and go:

"Hey look... the Christians can't even agree amongst themselves, if they spent less time attacking other Christian groups and more time setting a good example..."

But Christians are told in the Bible to SEPARATE themselves from the SINFUL practices of man and to EXPOSE error... "Examine ALL things and HOLD FAST to THAT which is TRUE" says God's word [1 Thessalonians 5:21]...so we DO.

You do?

What does it mean to examine if we DO NOT JUDGE what is RIGHT and WRONG? Jesus JUDGED the Pharisees as HYPOCRITES. Peter JUDGED Ananias and Saphira as LIARS [Acts 5:3-4]. Paul JUDGED the Galatians as FOOLS [Galatians 3:1].

It is unfortunate that self reflection is so hard for people to do. One of the reasons why Judges can't judge themselves officially. Perhaps one should consider, this is just a suggestion, how ones own actions would be judged if they could be judged objectively.

The REASON something can be said to be RIGHT or WRONG is because the Bible has LAID out before us a MORAL and DOCTRINAL STANDARD that is CLEAR. It is WRONG to LIE. So, we are able to say to someone who LIES, "What you are doing is WRONG." THAT is MAKING a JUDGMENT.

I could almost catch a whif of fire and brimstone in that one... you're getting there.

But anyway - it is unfortunate for you and your ilk "right and wrong" are so subjective and relevant. We aren't even talking big things like murder or suicide or abortion here.

No - we are talking interpreting the Bible... hey look, there are those people again, commenting on the sheer amount of different interpretations that exist in the Christian community. Even in the same sect. The reason why you can meet one Protestant/Catholic/etc who believes homosexuality is a sin and then meet another who doesn't.

Likewise, with the CULTS, as Christians we are COMMANDED to be able to give ANSWERS to everyone [1 Peter 3:15] and to CONTEND for the FAITH that was delivered by the Apostles [Jude 4].

Uh huh.

To make a judgment means that we must recognize that there are ABSOLUTES. In a world that WORSHIPS relativism, ABSOLUTES are NOT welcome...and the cults that espouse their DEMONIC doctrines beg TOLERANCE.

Being a Christian means to STAND for the TRUTH of God's WORD...NOT a compromising collection of BELIEFS that CHANGES as people's whims change. The cults are cults because they DENY the TRUE God...add WORKS to salvation...and CORRUPT a multitude of biblical TRUTHS. Their END and the END of ALL who FOLLOW them is DAMNATION in HELL. To do anything other than WARN people about them would be UNLOVING.

Yes, heaven forbid you listen to others and the reasons behind their faith/lack of faith. Heaven forbid you look at the flaws and holes within you own bit of doctrinal interpretation. Heaven forbid you stay open to the possibility you are wrong and as such might have more to learn before you can go "Bwooorh! We know the truth! Bwoooorh!"

So... when are you off to join the Christian version of Bin Laden and his band of merry extremists/fanatics?

Because I have said it before and I will say it again - you could be the poster child for the motto: "Blessed is the mind that is to small to doubt."

*["...Because I have said it before and I will say it again - you could be the poster child for the motto: "Blessed is the mind that is to small to doubt."]

***"Enter through the NARROW gate; for WIDE is the gate and SPACIOUS and BROAD is the WAY that leads away to DESTRUCTION, and MANY are those who are entering through it.

But the gate is NARROW (contracted by pressure) and the way is STRAITENED and COMPRESSED that leads away to LIFE, and FEW are those who FIND IT" [Matthew 7:13-14].

Marchello

Originally posted by Marchello
*["...Because I have said it before and I will say it again - you could be the poster child for the motto: "Blessed is the mind that is to small to doubt."]

***"Enter through the NARROW gate; for WIDE is the gate and SPACIOUS and BROAD is the WAY that leads away to DESTRUCTION, and MANY are those who are entering through it.

But the gate is NARROW (contracted by pressure) and the way is STRAITENED and COMPRESSED that leads away to LIFE, and FEW are those who FIND IT" [Matthew 7:13-14].

Marchello

Yes... Yes... I seeeeee it now. That quote certainly shot me down in flames. From now on I will be a preacher, telling people it is best if they have very small minds that have one setting (absolutist) because a mind any bigger (say one that has listened to more then their own voice and endeavoured to see from more then one perspective) won't get through the terribly narrow gate. Because apparently your (interpreted) God likes 'em dumb, unquestioning and fantastically opinionated.

Shame your view isn't one that every Christian aspires to. Probably not even in whatever particular sect/denomination you cling to (though I can imagine you being a Church of one almost.)

I've already given up talking to him IS, he's already proven that he can only have a narrow interpretation of Bible verses. Many of his interpretations are even in contradiction to other Bible verses. You're right about the small mind. He knows how to quote scripture, but not how to understand it in context. Best I think to just ignore him.

I'm going to quote a few scriptures myself now.

2 Peter 1:19-21

"Knowing first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation"

Which is why we believe in prophets. The ultimate authority on what scripture means is the God who inspired it. Yes we should use the intelligence that God gave us, but let God have the final say.

Examples of common misinterpretations of scripture

1- We are saved by faith alone.

While it is true that we are saved by faith, you can't at the same time ignore the list of works that are commanded in the scripture.
-Baptism (he who is not born again of water and the spirit...)
-repentance
-the rich man who asked Jesus what he needed to do to be saved was told to keep the law.

See also James 2, Romans 2:13-16, Hebrews 5:5-10, James 1:27, Matthew 16:27, Revelation 22:12-15, Matthew 25:31-46

2-The Bible is the sole authority
Many ignore-
- Jeremiah added to his writings after they were destroyed Jer:36:27-32
-Amos 3:7 the Lord does nothing without telling the prophets, obviously the Bible isn't big enough to contain everything that God could do.
-The Last verses in the Gospel of John tell us that there is much more that could not be written about Jesus.

I have no problem with differences of opinion. But an educated Biblical scholar should take into account all that the Bible has to say on the matter.

Using the Faith example - We are saved by faith, but as James says "faith without works is dead" So we cannot be saved if we have no works. It isn't the works that save, but we can't be saved without them so apparently they are necessary and we should know what we need to do.

Interestingly enough, Martin Luther started the "faith alone" movement. Since Luther, much of non-Catholic Christianity takes his interpretation as absolute. Such a view demeans God's creation, and by doing so demeans God, imo.

The Bible tells the young rich man to give up his wealth, it tells the sinner to repent, it tells man to practice "faith", and many other things man must do. Faith alone never saved according to the Bible, it has always required something on Man's part showing his worthiness of being saved.

The key is that man cannot do it without Christ, no matter what we do, we cannot save ourselves. Therefore, man cannot boast that he has saved himself. Nothing man can do will save him, only Christ is capable of that, and he will only save us when we have done what he has asked, when we have asked for forgiveness, when we have shown our willingness to love others as the Gospel dictates, among the rest of the commandments.

Imo, mainstream Christianity boasts quite a bit that they have saved themselves through their faith. In the Religion forum there are numerous examples of such, JIA, Marchello, JustByFaith and others have all done it. They boast about their salvation often, yet the Bible states that true salvation does not lead one to boasting.

Originally posted by Thundar
Yup, and remember the same scriptures used to tempt Christ, were the same scriptures used to get Satan's sons(the Pharisees) to justify calling Christ himself a demon.

Current mainstream Christianity would have killed Christ as well.

*["Yes... Yes... I seeeeee it now."]

***Apparently not.

************************************************

*["...From now on I will be a preacher..."]

***Why not? Worse guys than you have become preachers...like Paul who had Stephen stoned to death and held his robe while it was being done.

************************************************

*["...telling people it is best if they have very small minds that have one setting (absolutist) because a mind any bigger (say one that has listened to more then their own voice and endeavoured to see from more then one perspective) won't get through the terribly narrow gate..."]

***People who have very "small minds" with "absolutist" settings know, of a CERTAINTY, that there are NOT "two" versions of the truth...for there is only ONE truth. What you and the others on this board object to is my SOLE SOURCE [i.e., the Scriptures] of that TRUTH.

My SOURCE tells me in no uncertain terms that: (1) Jesus Christ IS the CREATOR [Colossians 1:16-17]...(2)Is God [John 1:1;Hebrews 1:5-14]...and the ONLY way to God: "...I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME" [John 14:6]. Too, He said something even STRONGER...to wit: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth NOT by the DOOR into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some OTHER WAY, the SAME is a THIEF and a ROBBER...Verily, verily, I say onto you, I AM THE DOOR of the sheep" [John 10:1, 7]. Now that is NARROW!!! Oh, yes...I am ONE of His "sheep" and He is my "shepherd" and I will only go through His DOOR into the sheepfold.

**********************************************

*["...Because apparently your (interpreted) God likes 'em dumb..."]

***No...I am able to speak.

**********************************************

*['...unquestioning and fantastically opinionated."]

***True. I don't have the wisdom nor the ability to question God because to do so would imply that, perhaps, God is wrong and would bring His judgments and/or pronouncements into question.

Here is what He thinks of the "wisdom" of men:

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that PERISH foolishness; but unto us which are SAVED it is the POWER of God. For it is written, I will DESTROY the WISDOM of the WISE, and will bring to NOTHING the UNDERSTANDING of the PRUDENT. Where is the WISE? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made FOOLISH the WISDOM of this world? For after that in the WISDOM of God the world by WISDOM KNEW NOT God, it pleased God by the FOOLISHNESS of PREACHING to SAVE them that BELIEVE. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after WISDOM: But we preach Christ CRUCIFIED, unto the Jews a STUMBLING block, and unto the Greeks FOOLISHNESS; but unto them which are CALLED, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the POWER of God, and the WISDOM of God. Because the FOOLISHNESS of God is WISER than men; and the WEAKNESS of God is STRONGER than men" [1 Corinthians 18-25].

Opinionated?...you bet!

*************************************************

*["Shame your view isn't one that every Christian aspires to."]

***EVERY True Christian has a "narrow" view about the person of Jesus Christ...(1)Who He was, (2)Why He came, (3)What He accomplished for us on the cross, and (4)What we must believe to be saved. ALL True Christians agree on the saving doctrines of the Faith and may have disagreements on minor issues that do not infringe on these saving doctrines.

*************************************************

*["Probably not even in whatever particular sect/denomination you cling to (though I can imagine you being a Church of one almost.)"]

***N/A

Marchello

Originally posted by M*******o
"Examine ALL things and HOLD FAST to THAT which is TRUE"[1 Thessalonians 5:21]

This exact concept is the reason I am A) not a christian and B) respectful of christian teachings

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
This exact concept is the reason I am A) not a christian and B) respectful of christian teachings

***My job as a Christian is to tell bring you the Gospel. What you do with it after you hear it is something I have no control over. If it is God's sovereign choice to soften your heart so that you will receive it...then you will be saved. If you do NOT receive it in faith believing...you will PERISH. In any event...His WORD will NOT return to Him void for it was sent to accomplish His purposes...that is, whether you will be saved or not. The choice is His alone...for salvation is ALL of God.

Marchello

the biggest sinners toward jesus was the one who followed and follows this jesus ways

Truer words were never spoken.

Originally posted by Marchello
***My job as a Christian is to tell bring you the Gospel. What you do with it after you hear it is something I have no control over. If it is God's sovereign choice to soften your heart so that you will receive it...then you will be saved. If you do NOT receive it in faith believing...you will PERISH. In any event...His WORD will NOT return to Him void for it was sent to accomplish His purposes...that is, whether you will be saved or not. The choice is His alone...for salvation is ALL of God.

Marchello

Why?

What's cool about what he said was that it contracdicts all the other Theists who have been saying free will condems us.