Tournament: The "Other" Match

Originally posted by Khellendros
You're underestimating two things: the level of energy I contian and the need for that chi to sustain me. The symbiote and Midnighter's enhanced body is where my strangth and speed come from, not the chi.

Ok, you won't get slower or weaker. Doesn't change the fact that the sword's charge will be HUGE by the time he goes by a couple times. The main point wasn't really to weaken you, it was to build up a blast big enough to punch through your shields and incinerate you. The radium laser works simlarly to the chi's burning effects, btw. And since the shield only works on organic stuff, does the burning affect as well?

That blast in the scan wasn't actually that big. It flared out a bit upon initially leaving the sword, but it narrowed back down again. I, on the other hand, can unleash a 360 degree wave of chi, any bit of which that touches will burn and keep burning.

Wasn't that big? It punched through multiple layers of starship armor. And it DID flare out, showing that Dreadstra's blasts are not solely straight line deals.

For this tourney, precog is not foolproof. At most, it lets you doge 7 out of 10. My enhancements, on the other hand, are under no such restrictions. each time I teleport, I can rematerialize with a portal Charged to redirect anything thrown at me.

Ok, GODLIKE dodges 7/10 projectiles. That says nothing about the fact that he can predict where you will teleport, so as to slice various limbs off when you appear.

Stronger is mildly debateable. Faster is ridiculous. I have the combined speed and reaction times of three bona fide energy dodgers. He has an edge in experience, but not skill. And, anyways, anything he can do, I will have already plotted out several ways to counterattack and executed the most efficient at speeds the human eye can't follow.

Mildly debatable? GODLIKE is a minimum of class 90. Saying you are class 30 would be a stretch, since MNer isn't exactly stated as 3 tons. GODLIKE could be anywhere from 180 tons up.

Running speed? Dealt with below. Reactions and agility? Vanth also dodges multiple energy blasts from pretty much point blank. After being tortured. In the other thread, Lam had pictures of Benedict (or was it Corwyn?) fighting a guy who psionically controlled a bunch of tentacles. Much akin to Venom's symbiote strands. In the picture, I'm pretty sure he was midway through a backflip, twisting around 5 or 6 of them. (I'll check in a minute) Leto has had Bene Gesserit training, the speed and agility of which is demonstrated by Jessica, who Leto is MUCH better than, both physically and skill-wise. GODLIKE also comes with pre-cog. If one can only dodge 7/10 with precog, how do you think one would fare without it? Say someone like... you. 🙂

Wooow. That's like asking me to be impressed that Wolverine took down a group of Hand ninjas. Jobbers are jobbers. Comics or books it makes very little difference.

Remember those Fremen guys me and Lam talked about? the ones that beat the crap out of ellite shock troopers, the most feared warriors in the galaxy? Yeah, Jessica did that to one of them. It's more akin to Aunt may beating a Shaolin Monk. Because Jessica had no enhanced speed or strength, yet moved faster than the eye could detect. (gap between Spiderman:Aunt May::Leto:Jessica, a Fremen could beat the crap out of a Shaolin Monk) That's both amazing skill and huge amounts of training, both of which Leto has in spades above her.

Please. Quicksilver would run CIRCLES around the Hulk, and he's nowhere near as strong. Physical power DOES NOT equal speed. You both need to accept that. Also: show me where it says that Hulk runs 300+ mph. Not so much that I don't believe you, but there was a debate on another board about how fast he could run and no one could think of a time when it was stated in comics.

Quicksilver's speed doesn't come from muscles though. Its from magic mutant powers. Leto, however, runs by sandtrout enhanced muscles only. So y7es, in this case, his speed DOES INDEED=power. Speedster types are different, because they draw power that specifically gives them speed.

Quicksilver's powers give him speed. Hulk's give him strength. GODLIKE's give him both. Leto's new skin allowed him to run at right around the tourney max. Benedict with the sandtrout skin would be faster, and is then amped by 10 times by the sword. Mathematically, that's above 1,000 mph, for just Leto with the sword. (around 100 mph, x10 for the sword)

And THAT... Is an essay. Or 5. Please read it, it's got some good stuff in there.

OK, the strength thing. We actually went over all of this in detail in the General Discussion thread, and no one disagreed with my conclusions.

I took 1 ton for Vanth because that's what Digi said. I don't think unaugmented Vanth could lift 800lbs. He's athletic and muscular, but he's not a huge guy. I'd imagine he could lift 350-450lbs if not for the sword. This would put him between 1.5 and 2.25 tons. I didn't see fit to argue this point as I've been using Benedict's body so it was never significant, and still isnt. Again and again, the comics say that he's ten times stronger.

I assumed a little over 2 tons for Benedict based on two of his weaker brothers picking up a Mercedes that had run off the road and putting it back on the road much like mere mortals would move a picnic table. Also, the weakest of the princes of Amber once picked up a sofa with one hand and threw it clear across the room in the middle of a fight.

Fot Lil' Leto, I took a guess for a eugenicly bred "peak ten year old" of being able to lift 1.5 times his body weight, and guessed his weight as a bit lower than the US national average since Fremen are lean and we have an obesity epidemic.

For augmented Leto, I took 5 tons since that's what Digi said. As Dizzle reported, that's probably a conservative estimate.

As far as relative logarithmic increases, this isn't the place for a natural sciences lecture. Google the Richter Scale, decibels SPL vs phones, exposure values vs foot-candles, or anything involving materiels strength. Suffice it to say, lacking any other metric I guessed (and I think it's a good guess) that this relationship would crop up here.

Saying that I don't have an edge in skill is absurd.

Finally, in Leto II's case strength does=speed. I'll post relative sitations from the text to prove this point tomorrow night. Right now I'm going to go stop ignoring my wife. 🙂

Why the hell would it be a loga rithmic increase? Is there some special method that they were amaglamated?

Oh and if you insist on maintaining the ten times thing then the base strength would have to be less than 450

2 000 / 450 = 4.44444444

Actually it'd have to be 200 max lift before the sword. Which is absurd because I'm athletic and can lift more than that.

So the sword might have been limited for the tournament.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Quicksilver's speed doesn't come from muscles though. Its from magic mutant powers.

So what would that make him? he can run faster than the Hulk. . so I'd guess Quicksilver is at least 100 tons?

Right. . . How about spiderman? He lifts 15 tons, how fast should he be able to run according to your calculations?

Originally posted by Creshosk
It's not magic, his body has mutated to be better adapted to running. So yeah, actually it IS his muscles.

So what would that make him? he can run faster than the Hulk. . so I'd guess Quicksilver is at least 100 tons?

Right. . . How about spiderman? He lifts 15 tons, how fast should he be able to run according to your calculations?

Body adapted to RUNNING. Not anything else. Quicksilver is a special case. Normally, if something can move that fast, it is going to be hella strong.

Spiderman runs right around 125 mph... For tourney purposes, at least. He also has had a cumulative increase on his muscles. He is NOT specifically adapted to running (ala Quicksilver) but still runs really really fast because of the strength in his legs.

GODLIKE's enhancements are more akin to Spiderman's than Quicksilver's, in that they didn't specifically target any area. It was a pretty much propoprtional increase across his entire body.

And furthermore, why is this really an issue? Does jumping power equate to running speed? No. It definitely requires strength. The reason I put Leto's strength lower than 20 tons (based on the leap) was because of how fast he can run. I was implying that his legs were stronger than his arms before the skin was applied, and so would be that much stronger post-transformation. If I go solely by leaping power and disregard speed, 10 year old Leto would definitely be a little stronger than Spidey, as Spidey does NOT have a vertical leap of 50 feet, especially when starting on sand.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Body adapted to RUNNING. Not anything else. Quicksilver is a special case. Normally, if something can move that fast, it is going to be hella strong.

Funny how in the real world the fastest creatures are not the strongest. . . Cheetahs versus Lions for example. . .

Which cat is stronger? Which cat is faster?

Dogs if you prefer we got wolves and greyhounds. . .

Originally posted by Dizzle
Spiderman runs right around 125 mph... For tourney purposes, at least. He also has had a cumulative increase on his muscles. He is NOT specifically adapted to running (ala Quicksilver) but still runs really really fast because of the strength in his legs.

Originally posted by Dizzle
GODLIKE's enhancements are more akin to Spiderman's than Quicksilver's, in that they didn't specifically target any area. It was a pretty much propoprtional increase across his entire body.

And furthermore, why is this really an issue? Does jumping power equate to running speed? No. It definitely requires strength. The reason I put Leto's strength lower than 20 tons (based on the leap) was because of how fast he can run. I was implying that his legs were stronger than his arms before the skin was applied, and so would be that much stronger post-transformation. If I go solely by leaping power and disregard speed, 10 year old Leto would definitely be a little stronger than Spidey, as Spidey does NOT have a vertical leap of 50 feet, especially when starting on sand.

Cresh, relize that I picked a log curve as my model because it would generate a moderately low strength at the output and not lead to numbers that were just silly. My main inspiration was power amplifiers of various sorts. All else being equal, you need 1000W of light to be twice as bright as 100W. Assuming otherwise similar characteristics, you need a 600W guitar amp to be twice as loud as a 60W amplifier. I thought to describe the symbiosis like a strength amplifier. I thought that this was as good a model as any to come up with a number for Benedict with the sandtrout.

The flaw in your reasoning, Cresh, is that you're saying that since digi ballparked Vanth as "tonnish" that the sword must multiply his strength less than to times. He's only described as tonnish because Digi lowballed him a bit in the absence of a clear figure. I didn't make a big deal because I wasn't using Vanths body, so it wasn't germane; the 10x boost was the important part. Don't take the fact that Digi didn't bother to reality check his straw number as an inconsistancy in the 10x figure. Starlin never quotes ton figures for Vanth in the stories, but at various points in his career, the author (either directly or through other characters) described him as having 10, 40, or 100 times his normal strength. This version is his early stage, "only" 10x.

Again, about the speed/strength thing. Toad and Quicksilver's strength levels are irrelevant. They are different characters with different powers that work in very different ways. As depicted in Children of Dune, Leto's speed is very clearly a function of his great strength. Or to look at it another way, the sandtrout amplifies his movements in both speed and power, together. Not to be flip, but have you read it? I'll post some relevant passages tomorrow night for anyone who doubts what I'm saying here to judge for themselves.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yeah because those humming birds and bees are deadly strong. . .

Funny how in the real world the fastest creatures are not the strongest. . . Cheetahs versus Lions for example. . .

Which cat is stronger? Which cat is faster?

Dogs if you prefer we got wolves and greyhounds. . .

I've never seen him run that fast. . .

So Toad is what? 10 tons? 15 tons?

All of your examples of strength are flawed, because if hummingbirds and bees were human sized, their strength would dwarf the crap out of ours. Lions are biggger than cheetahs, cheetahs are literally built to be fast. Toad is specifically built to jump around. All of your examples are specialized in one area, where Leto is simply a human before his transformation. He was not specifically a runner, or a jumper, and since his skin increased the strength of his entire body proportionally, showing that his improved legs are hundreds of times better than his human legs is VERY good grounds to justify that ALL of his improved muscles are that many times better than their human versions.

One last post before I turn in, concerning the comparison between Grailnighter's tactical computer and GODLIKE's abilities.

Midnighter has some very good sensors that supply data to his on-board computer with a highly accurate data model with which to wargame in the blink of an eye whatever fight he happens to be in. It suggests to him the most likely scenarios, and he furthur judges them himself based on his extensive military, black-ops, and martial arts training and experience (and in this case Grail and Blink's experiences as well). This is how he can often stay one or more steps ahead of his foes. He is very cool.

GODLIKE has two things that are far beyond Grailnighter's similar abilities. First, Leto II's prescience is far more than simple Spider-Sense of even precognition. He doesn't try to guess or calculate possable futures based on some measurements, he can see/feel them from the universe itself. There are no flaws in his model whatsoever. He simply knows the current location and state of his foes and the realative likelyhood of different options and outcomes. It's like MN's simulations heightenned to a state of perfection.

Any judgements or inferences he might make about how things will actually turn out (as opposed to mere likelyhood of occurrences) are not informed by one two or three lifetimes of (admittedly considerable, props to Khell's guys where they're due) badassedness. Rather, GODLIKE can draw both from Benedict's several millenia of constant training and to-the-death combat and war, as well as Leto II's total ancestral memories that stretch from the far future back to the dawn of human civilization. His recent ancestors include dozens of generations of uber-badassed Fremen deasert warriors, Bene-Gesserit martial arts mystics; and nobles maneuvering, duelling, and warring for dominace of the galaxy. More to the point, he's the sum of all the survivors, the fittest throughout history.

To sum up, GODLIKE is better at what Mid/Grailnighter is good at than they are.

Thank you and goodnight. Tomorrow night, you get primary source material. 🙂

I'm telling you, ditch the logarithmic BS.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
(log(Ben's Strength)/log(10yr-old-Leto's Strength))*Sandtrout Leto's strength*10

Originally posted by Laminator_X
I'm not sure what your suggesting. The assumption I made was that for any two individuals bonded to the sandtrout, the stronger one would have to be ten times stronger initially to be twice as strong after the bonding. That's how most systems in nature work, and that's what the logarithmic term describes.

Leto II was boosted from "peak 10-year-old" to 5tons, maybe a bit more. For this math, I assumed 5 tons. That's something like a 100x or 200x multiplier, depending on how strong he was before. Of course, the sandtrout aren't 100% efficient, so Benedict won't be boosted anywhere near that much. Benedict's initial strength is unclear, I took a conservative estimate of a little over 2 tons. Assuming that relationship is like most things in nature, for every ten times stronger Benedict is than lil' Leto without the symbiote, he should be twice as strong as Leto with the trout; or around 9 tons.

Vanth's sword is supernatural, and looses no efficiency with greater input, at least in this range. 9*10=90tons.

Guessing a peak ten year old can lift about 110 lbs.

110lbs in tons is .055

log(2)/log(0.055))*5*10= -11.9490743

You can lift -12 tons? 🤨

I'm telling you, ditch the logarithmic BS.

Godliek seems to be a little too powerfull.....

Originally posted by grey fox
Godliek seems to be a little too powerfull.....

Well no , it just seems like he's ending up on skyfather level .

Originally posted by grey fox
Well no , it just seems like he's ending up on skyfather level .

No , just the way they keep on describing him

Godlike can block anything kill anything blah blah hundreds of years of combat blah blah nullify all precog blah blah.

(Sigh) Cresh, I'd rather not take the time to give math lessons here. Your getting negative numbers because your taking the log of .055 tons. Put all the units in pounds so you're only log'ing numbers greater than 1, and you get:
l
og(4500)=3.65, log(100)=2 3.65/2=1.8

Thus even though Benedict is many times stronger than Lil Leto, he should be only be around 1.8 times stronger in the sandtrout than Leto II was.

Are there assumptions there? Sure, but I think they're reasonable ones. It's not like I can have GODLIKE weigh in at the gym or something. We've got to start somewhere and this seemed to me to be a reasonable extrapolation based on how power amplificarions generally work.

Again, it's the best guess I could come up with on limited data.
If you don't agree, make your own guess and vote based on that, but I'm getting sick of the insinuation that I'm trying to con people with fuzzy math. I put all this up for review in the Tourney General Discussion thread well before the Bonus Round started so people could disagree, criticise, suggest alternatives, etc. Nobody else had a problem with it and he entered the tourney as I described.

Originally posted by grey fox
Well no , it just seems like he's ending up on skyfather level .

Dizzle and I both saw that there all the limits on draft picks were based on power; speed, strength, durability, banned powers, etc. Apart from the "Spidey dodges 7/10" guideline, there were no limits on skill, knowledge, or expertise. We chose characters who were within the limits on raw might, but off the scale when it comes to battle skills.

We also both were among those who misunderstood about the power limits being for draft picks only rather than for amalgams as a whole. We ended up with characters who were very well tuned to hit those limits after power meshing. Once we knew that amalgams can power mesh beyond the individual limits, Dizzle suggested the trade.

If we seem a bit hyperbolic in our rhetoric now, it's because our guys skills didn't get the respect they deserved in the first round. GODLIKE is the wrath of under-appreciated characters incarnate.

Ahh so you thought the rules would allow you to go above the limits when the amalgam is created , but not when the characters to create the amalgam are picked...understandable .

milligrams
(log(1814369480)/ log(49895160.7))*4535923700 * 10 = 5.45551503 * (10^10) milligrams or 60 tons
grams
(log(1814369) / log(49895)) * 4535923 * 10 = 60427 315.6 or 67 tons
ounces
(log(64000) / log(1760)) * 160000 * 10 = 2369390.83 or 74 tons
pounds
(log(4000) / log(110)) * 10000 * 10 = 176451.107 or 88 tons
tons
(log(2)/log(0.055))*5*10= -11.9490743 or -12 tons

Yeah no fuzzy math here. . .

um.... i shoot doglike in the face with my blaster = he dies

i walk up to nighter and poke him in the eyes with my sabers = he dies

i win

woo hoo