Originally posted by Ianus
Cute."I believe Sidious has more Force power than Yoda."
I like this faith-based arguing I see going on at KMC all of a sudden. Not to harp on you Glentract, but it's pretty EVIDENT that Yoda tromps all over Sidious' Force powers. Watch the lightning battle in ROTS. Yoda wins it from a position of disadvantage. He overpowed Sidious.
This means Yoda > Sidious.
And lightning is the only indication of force power because...?
Sidious was at a disadvantage during the lightning attack because he had to generate the lightning and stop whatever was fired back at him. Defending usually requires less energy than attacking.
Also, look at the Senate pods. Sidious was picking several of them up at a time and chucking them at Yoda while Yoda stoped one and threw that back. Yes, Yoda did have to overcome the energy put into it by Sidious, but notice he spends several seconds stoping the pod and throwing it back.
Doesn't seem to evident to me.
Not really. Do rubber gloves have more energy than an electrical socket? No, but they can defend stop it.
Look at the Alamo, for example. Did the ~150 Texans have more power than the Spanish Army? No, but they managed to kill ~600 Mexicans. It is a fair bit easier to defend.
I can give more examples if you like.
Not really.
Yoda has to stop lighting that gets to him.
Sidious has to generate the lighting and direct it at Yoda.
Also, energy would through air resistance(air is a very bad conductor) and light.
Therefor Yoda is stoping less energy than Sidious is generating. Remember, on top of generating the energy, Sidious has to channel it at Yoda.
And? although the aesthetics of producing force-lightning are scarce we can logically assume that this would Sidious does not have to generate and then move the lightning;
He simply has to generate it at Yoda (i may be unclear on this but i cant be bothered to wire ann essay).
And how exactly do you stop this energy. First you must as it appears onscreen) slow down the lightning and then you must absorb it safely.
On sheer principle this must take up much of Yoda's energy and concentration.
And lightning is the only indication of force power because...?
Because it's his deadliest attack.
Sidious was at a disadvantage during the lightning attack because he had to generate the lightning [b]and stop whatever was fired back at him. [/b]
Proof of this? Evidence? Back up? Anything?
Defending usually requires less energy than attacking.
How does this statement fit into the argument? Is there more energy being used on one side then the other? Is not Yoda having to exert himself more to come back from off-balance position?
And really, where is there evidence in print or live-action movie of defending via Force being LESS exerting than attacking?
Also, look at the Senate pods. Sidious was picking several of them up at a time and chucking them at Yoda while Yoda stoped one and threw that back.
Yoda only stopped to nab one, and it was at a point when he wasn't close enough to simply hop to the side and gain ground (Which he did right after he chucked one back.) Technically, he didn't need to chuck more than once since he nearly got Sidious after the first.
And throwing pods down (in accordance with gravity) is presumably easier than throwing it up.
Yes, Yoda did have to overcome the energy put into it by Sidious, but notice he spends several seconds stoping the pod and throwing it back.
Which in turn Sidious didn't (And possibly couldn't) have done the same thing, since Sidious didn't stop the same pod when it came at him.
Doesn't seem to evident to me.
It's very evident, and your rebuttal just made it even more evident. Consider that you might be wrong for once, Glentract. Lord knows you've been running around KMC like this is your own virtual debate sandbox and it's pissing everyone off.
Sidious and Yoda were, in fact, exerting nearly the same amount of energy during the Force lightning struggle. Sidious was using his Sith teachings to perform a feat unavailable to Yoda, and was emitting the lightning. Yoda was emitting a barrier, of which, he could use to hold the lightning at bay. But Sidious was able to move closer while Yoda could not. Sidious did indeed have the more control of the situation.
Glentract, Sidious had gravity on his side. This is a distinct advantage. But, at the same time, this proves Yoda is only barely stronger than Sidious in the Force, considering if it were otherwise, Yoda would have defied gravity.
At the same time, Ianus, Sidious was laughing and had his eyes closed and his face covered when the pod was chucked back. He whirled out of the way just as it came close. But he managed to lift these things, which were the size of cars, three at a time. It is safe to assume he could have deflected it if he saw it in time, and nothing to support the contrary.
The point I was trying to make is that Glentract makes assumptions based on movie events in a form of poor sampling. In the same line of thought, I could say Sidious was weaker than Yoda because he didn't catch the pod. Really though, the most convincing part of Yoda's superiority (and whether it's more or a little is subjective) is the virtual Force battle he won at the end of the match.
i dont think either of them overpowered the other. it was just all the force energy pushed back on itself and concentrated by the both of them pushing it that it became uncontrolable and was released in a wave of energy that forced them both back. i think yoda used the same amount of energy to hold it back as sidious used to push it fowards. it was a stale mate, hence the recoil that sent both flying.
like obi wan and anakin pushing directly at eachother in their duel, nobody clearly won, it was just too much energy and they were both sent flying. i dong think yoda could have won though. the whole point of the fight was that the dark side overpowered the light. had he not fallen yoda could have come back to fight some more, but to what effect? hed lost his saber, hed put alot of energy into stopping the force lightning, and sidious wasnt all that tired. he was stong enough to hold on and laugh, not a weak laugh but a loud uncontrolled laugh.
plus sidious had used great amounts of force energy during the fight to throw massive objects at yoda and he wasnt slowing down. yoda sent one back at him but he wasnt actually forcing it down on yoda, hed thrown it but he wasnt still pushing it at him when it was stopped. sidious had been overpowering yoda from the start, yoda got one counter to actaully do some damage, and it was to both of them. and sidious didnt seem to be phased by it, only forced back over a rail, which he easily had the presence of mind, and strength to grab. and laugh.
when sidious used massive amounts of power on mace he got up and didnt look tired in the least. he didnt sigh or breathe deep. he expressed satisfaction, and then stood up as though hed done nothing at all.
how did this turn into another yoda vs sidious thread anyway? i made it because id never seen sidious put in a fight with a non force user that actaully stood a chance against him, and it still ends up being force user to force user.
Originally posted by Ianus
[B]
And lightning is the only indication of force power because...?Because it's his deadliest attack. [/B]
So if Yoda had been crushed under one of the Pods, that wouldn't be more deadly?
Also, if you look very closely in the lightning scene, you can see Yoda flying back a distance a large amount greater to how far Sidious flew.
Originally posted by Ianus
[b]
Sidious was at a disadvantage during the lightning attack because he had to generate the lightning [b]and stop whatever was fired back at him. [/b]Proof of this? Evidence? Back up? Anything? [/B]
Yoda has to stop lighting that gets to him.
Sidious has to generate the lighting and direct it at Yoda.
Also, energy would through air resistance(air is a very bad conductor) and light.
Therefor Yoda is stoping less energy than Sidious is generating. Remember, on top of generating the energy, Sidious has to channel it at Yoda.
Also, lightning hits the closest target. The person using the force lightning has to propel the lightning away from them, overcoming it's natural tendency to come to the closest object.
Originally posted by Ianus
[b]
Defending usually requires less energy than attacking.How does this statement fit into the argument? Is there more energy being used on one side then the other? Is not Yoda having to exert himself more to come back from off-balance position?
And really, where is there evidence in print or live-action movie of defending via Force being LESS exerting than attacking? [/B]
There is no evidence to the contrary either, but there are logical assumptions that I showed above that would point towards defending being easier than attacking.
Originally posted by Ianus
[b]
Also, look at the Senate pods. Sidious was picking several of them up at a time and chucking them at Yoda while Yoda stoped one and threw that back.Yoda only stopped to nab one, and it was at a point when he wasn't close enough to simply hop to the side and gain ground (Which he did right after he chucked one back.) Technically, he didn't need to chuck more than once since he nearly got Sidious after the first.
And throwing pods down (in accordance with gravity) is presumably easier than throwing it up. [/B]
He nearly got Sidious after the first. Why would that keep him from throwing another one? He should have kept going until Sidious died.
Also, I noticed that Sidious picks up four at one time. Not a lot, but it's still a bit of a difference.
On top of that, I noticed that only some of the pods are mobile. It shows a close up of Sidious picking one up in one part and there sparks come out and you can see some beams break. I only saw this clearly twice, once when Yoda dodges and then stands up and reignites his lightsaber. There are several pods being held at this point. The middle one shows some sparks. Also, the one that Sidious throws at Yoda shows the same thing, in much greater detail.
These beams that Sidious is snapping with ease must be very strong because they are able to hold up the Senate Pods for extended periods of time with several people in them.
Originally posted by Ianus
[b]
Yes, Yoda did have to overcome the energy put into it by Sidious, but notice he spends several seconds stoping the pod and throwing it back.Which in turn Sidious didn't (And possibly couldn't) have done the same thing, since Sidious didn't stop the same pod when it came at him. Yoda has to stop lighting that gets to him. [/B]
Sidious simply dodged it, like Yoda did several times.
On this whole gravity-thing for Yoda throwing the pod back, Sidious did the same thing with three pods. Look at the part that I earlier mentioned with having sparks when Sidious is holding several pods and you can see that Sidious throws several(at least three) up into the air before throwing them down at Yoda, presumably to gain momentum.
Originally posted by Ianus
Yes, but tromp sounds cooler.If I said "And Yoda, with a grim look of sheer determination, pushed back the wave of Sith energy..." it would be too grandiose. Tromp sounds funny and I get a mental picture of Yoda kicking Sidious in the shin or something every time I type it.
Originally posted by Ianus
The point I was trying to make is that Glentract makes assumptions based on movie events in a form of poor sampling. In the same line of thought, I could say Sidious was weaker than Yoda because he didn't catch the pod. Really though, the most convincing part of Yoda's superiority (and whether it's more or a little is subjective) is the virtual Force battle he won at the end of the match.
Yoda appears to have been thrown back farther than Sidious. Sidious doesn't have a 😛 stranger 😛 facial expression, but that seems more likely to be from his arrogance in his own power rather than him being weaker.