Darth Sidious Vs Durge

Started by Borbarad8 pages
Originally posted by Escape81
Still. The anomalies in the battle, ie, Yoda overpowering Sidious's Force lightning, and Sidious tossing pods far easier than Yoda, need to be very analyzed. While you may hold the Lightning-War as you call it, in higher esteem than the pod-tossing, it does not negate the facts. Yoda scored a victory by repelling Sidious's lightning, and Sidious did the same for his outstanding usage of the pods.

After having watched the scene half a billion times the entire scene is a big anomaly for me. Because:

a)
At the very beginning of the pod throwing sequence you can see that Yoda is jumping away from the central pod and flies to a lower level. Sidious himself is on the same hight as the central pod or maybe a little bit higher. Now Yoda jumps down and also Sidious jumps down from his position but suddenly, when Yoda's lightsaber is falling down (and later Yoda himself) they are somehow again above the central pod. I don't get it.

b)
All the pods thrown around are "active". You can see that the lights at their side are glowing and this actually make the entire "pod throwing" much less impressive. For me at least. Actually both Yoda and Sidious have nothing else to do than use the force an manipulate the controls of the pod to make them fly around as they like (if you have a look at the pods Sidious is lifting up - they remain in their "normal" flying position).

c)
Does that only look like it to me or is the Senate Champer in ROTS much smaller than it appeared to be in TPM ?

d)
Why the hell didn't Yoda pick up his lightsaber and went to fight Sidious again ? His lightsaber must be somewhere near the point that he fell to.


This leads me to believe that Yoda and Sidious both have advantages in one another in the Force. Some labor under the delusion that one would flat out own the other in either category; you have your Yoda fanboys on one hand, and the Sidious fanboys on the other, and the few who are rational, in the very middle.

The point is that you can see that Yoda bested Sidious in their direct force confrontation. And after having watched the scene again you can see that Sidious is leaning backwards. Just have a look at his head from the sideposition. You can see that it's "behind" his body meaning that he's leaning backwards.


The ROTS script is moot. Before a few of you jump off the deep end, I only refer to the part where Yoda supposedly disarms Sidious, and then leaps away for no reason, despite his intent to kill Sidious, and the part where he has the limited time to do it. Simply, had the battle turned out like this, it wouldn't have made sense.

Yoda didn't leap away for no reason. I don't know what script you were reading but Yoda had to put down his lightsaber to deflect Sidious lightning and then jumped away to ready his lightsaber again since he can't kill Sidious with his force powers. Actually Sidious had to destract Yoda somehow to get away from him because if Sidious had just jumped away Yoda would directly have followed him and as we see Sidious is on the "high ground" already when Yoda is jumping away from the central pod in the beginning of the pod throwing sequence.


Sidious and Yoda, in my view, are equals in the Force. Yoda and Sidious are both capable of using the Force for defense and offensive purposes, Yoda being the most vicious little Jedi we've seen, other than Mace. Yoda's core powers seemed to be a trifle more attuned than Sidious's own, but considering he's had eight centuries longer to use them, it would not surprise me. But I do believe Sidious and Dooku are naturally stronger Force-users than Yoda, considering how he was unable to overpower both of them, despite his overwhelming experience and mastery of the Force. Don't bite my head off, just an opinion.

The point is that you're totally forgetting the Dark Side effect. First the Dark Side is "quicker" and then the Dark Side powers do simply look more impressive. Still Yoda did best both Dooku and Sidious in a "direct" battle of force powers - he just didn't kill them.

To the fight you descriped:
I think Stover in the ROTS novel is pretty much accurate when he descripes why Yoda can't defeat Sidious. Because the Sith changed their philosophy or the way they use the force. You can't overwhelm them with sheer "Light Side" powers - you have to utilize the Dark Side to beat them. And now think about it:
Mace took Sidious with a fighting style that embraces the Dark Side to a certain point. Luke did "beat" Vader in ROTJ using his anger and Sidious himself was finally killed by Vader who again was a Dark Side user.
Maybe that's the explanation why Ben and Yoda didn't train Luke and Leia from childhood on - because Yoda knew (from his fight with Sidious) that a "normal" Jedi (meaning a servant of the Light Side) can't defeat the Emperor.

And just to point it out again: Yoda must have some very high force potential since Obi-Wan is wondering that Anakin's midi-chlorian count is even beyond Yoda's. But Yoda is operating under a very strict code when it comes to using force powers and therefore we'll never know what Yoda could have done with his potential. But it's possible that Yoda would be able to beat Luke when it comes to potential which means that he could have been a devastating power on his own if he wasn't operating under the Jedi Code (imagine somebody with more potential than NJO Luke and 800 years more training - ouch !).

Originally posted by Escape81
An excellent point. But is it that much quicker? Where, in 60+ years of training in the Dark Side, a Force user can match the powers of another Force user, with 800+ years under his belt? To me, Yoda's true power comes from his experience and age . . . not saying that he does not possess immense innate power. But Sidious and Dooku are, in my opinion, of equal or potentially greater Force potential than Yoda.

I doubt it is that. Look at Mace, for example. He is around Yoda/Dooku/Sidious' level of power with 53 years of Jedi Training.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I doubt it is that. Look at Mace, for example. He is around Yoda/Dooku/Sidious' level of power with 53 years of Jedi Training.

With a saber, we have seen. I doubt his Force powers are quite as skilled or as developed as Count Dooku's, let alone Sidious's or Yoda's. He is described as a prodigy. As gifted, even for a Jedi. I am quite certain that Mace himself had an outstanding level of potential.

He was able to fend off Sidious' full fury of Force Lightning and according to someone( I don't remember who) he blocked some of it with his hand(I'm out of town, so I can't check till saturday).

It does seem like they may have all reached their potential in pure power. After that they may have learned how to better focus that power and use it in different ways, but notice how people who don't use alternative means to augment their power, they max out around Yoda/Sidious' level of power. Look at it this way, Yoda, Malak, Mace, Sidious, Dooku, Bane, Hoth, Kavar, and Vrook are all suspiciously near each other in power. The only people who were stronger than them(Ancient Sith/NJO Luke, DE Sidious) used artificial means to enhance their power. This seems like a good reason for Sidious and Dooku being on the same level as Yoda.

It also seems unlikely that Yoda had little potential, because he was actually believed to be the Chosen One for a short time.

Obi-Wan deflected a blast of Sith lightning from Count Dooku. Against a lightsaber, Sith lightning is useless unless it strikes the person wielding the saber itself. Mace did indeed deflect Sidious's lightning. But he used both hands, and had the advantage of a lightsaber, which also nearly caused the weapon to be forced back upon him. Indeed it would have, had Sidious not stopped the onslaught.

Sidious would have died had he not stopped that onslaught. His face was melting. Like Sidious said, it was killing him.

Hm. For a man that was dying, Sidious sure as hell recovered quickly once Anakin sliced off Windu's hand.

Indeed, he shows no signs of being tired or weakened at all after the fight. I submit that it was not killing him.

I know that. The point is that while Mace did manage to deflect the Sith lightning, he did so with extreme difficulty, as well as with a weapon that negates such bouts of energy, when used properly. At that moment, he really didn't do anything spectacular. Obi-Wan could've done it. So could Anakin, I'm sure.

Originally posted by IKC
Hm. For a man that was dying, Sidious sure as hell recovered quickly once Anakin sliced off Windu's hand.

Indeed, he shows no signs of being tired or weakened at all after the fight. I submit that it was not killing him.

Quick-Recovery Medkit. 😛

Originally posted by Escape81
Quick-Recovery Medkit. 😛

Or spectacular acting. A farce of weakness. Somewhat like the whole fight.

Why didn't Obi-wan do it against Count Dooku? Becuase he couldn't get his saber in a good position to block lightning in time. The first time, he was able to get his saber in a good position to block it. Mace was in a bad position to block lightning, like Obi-wan was in ep3, yet he still did.

IKC, think of ROTJ Luke for example. He was shocked for a very long time, yet was still able to drag a several hundred pound man the many miles to the nearest shuttle bay. Yoda was blasted off a Senate Pod and fell hundreds of feet, yet was still able to walk away. Mace wasn't even breathing very hard after he blocked Sidious' lightning.

Originally posted by IKC
Or spectacular acting. A farce of weakness. Somewhat like the whole fight.

No! It can't be true! Remember . . . Subsection 1A of the KMC Forum Bi-Laws state clearly that:

"All versus fight sequences involving Emperor Palpatine, aka Darth Sidious, aka "The Old Geriatric" will automatically result in the Dark Lord being owned. Statements regarding him shall include various insults about how he sucks with a lightsaber and how his own apprentices flat out own him in the Force. Any hinderance to this bi-law shall result in banning from the forums."

Lol. Just kidding. 😛

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Why didn't Obi-wan do it against Count Dooku? Becuase he couldn't get his saber in a good position to block lightning in time. The first time, he was able to get his saber in a good position to block it. Mace was in a bad position to block lightning, like Obi-wan was in ep3, yet he still did.

IKC, think of ROTJ Luke for example. He was shocked for a very long time, yet was still able to drag a several hundred pound man the many miles to the nearest shuttle bay. Yoda was blasted off a Senate Pod and fell hundreds of feet, yet was still able to walk away. Mace wasn't even breathing very hard after he blocked Sidious' lightning.

Erm . . . maybe I've just forgotten, but, when did Count Dooku use Sith lightning against Obi-Wan in Episode III?

Originally posted by IKC
Or spectacular acting. A farce of weakness. Somewhat like the whole fight.

Sure. I mean a direct commentary of the movie stated that Mace OVERPOWERED Sidious. No way was Sidious fighting his hardest.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Why didn't Obi-wan do it against Count Dooku? Becuase he couldn't get his saber in a good position to block lightning in time. The first time, he was able to get his saber in a good position to block it. Mace was in a bad position to block lightning, like Obi-wan was in ep3, yet he still did.

IKC, think of ROTJ Luke for example. He was shocked for a very long time, yet was still able to drag a several hundred pound man the many miles to the nearest shuttle bay. Yoda was blasted off a Senate Pod and fell hundreds of feet, yet was still able to walk away. Mace wasn't even breathing very hard after he blocked Sidious' lightning.

I submit that Sidious' intent with Luke was to torture him. However, you bring up an interesting point.

Where is it ever shown in the movies that force lightning does more than hurt like hell and knock down a person, sometimes driving them unconscious? Indeed, I can't think of a single time when lightning itself killed the victim (Mace flew out a window, I believe he was still alive but fell to his death).

However, you're incorrect on one thing. Mace struggled hard to block Sidious' lightning with his lightsaber. He spoke to Anakin through gritted teeth while obviously trying to maintain a hold on his lightsaber. Just because he wasn't breathing hard doesn't mean he didn't have to exert himself.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sure. I mean a direct commentary of the movie stated that Mace OVERPOWERED Sidious. No way was Sidious fighting his hardest.

I'm not exactly defending IKC in this instance, but I will say that Lucas normally chooses his words very carefully. Even if Sidious was faking, Mace still technically overpowered him.

I never said he didn't have to exert himself. I'm just saying that he was have an easier time than Sidious, which seems true since Sidious was lying on the ground crying like a baby.

Force Lightning can kill, since Sidious planned to kill Luke in ROTJ with lightning.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sure. I mean a direct commentary of the movie stated that Mace OVERPOWERED Sidious. No way was Sidious fighting his hardest.

Indeed he wasn't. The situation played out too perfectly for Sidious for it to not have been a setup.

Reveal himself to the Chosen One, encourage the Chosen One to turn him in to the Jedi. Slaughter all but the most obviously dangerous Jedi, then pretend to lose to him and be at his mercy just as the Chosen One steps back into the door, unable to prevent himself from returning because of a lie you told him about keeping a loved one alive. Oh, and conveniently move the fight to a different chamber so the inconvenient and messy bodies of three Jedi Masters are out of the Chosen One's eyesight, the better to make the Chosen One's choice easier.

You are semi-correct. Anakin does actually see the bodies of the three Jedi, he figures they were killed in self-defense. He also already knew that Anakin wanted to use him to save Padme. It seems likely that he thought Anakin would join him when he first revealed him, yet when he didn't he just planned to kill the attack party and then keep trying to get Anakin. Sidious actually could have saved Padme later on, it wasn't a lie.

I didn't read all of the posts because I have a horrid headache tonight, but someone mentioned Mace's blocking of the sith lightning.