Lol! I believe fully that he went in to kill Sidious, Escape. I would never contradict that.
My point was that there is knowledge and power in the back of Yoda's mind that we haven't seen in the movies, and for good reason. Yoda will never use these powers, because of the restrictions of the Code, and so will never be as vicious, aggressive, and downright dangerous as he could be.
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Lol! I believe fully that he went in to kill Sidious, Escape. I would never contradict that.My point was that there is knowledge and power in the back of Yoda's mind that we haven't seen in the movies, and for good reason. Yoda will never use these powers, because of the restrictions of the Code, and so will never be as vicious, aggressive, and downright dangerous as he could be.
In short, you mean Dark Side Yoda. Well, that is understandable. This is, perhaps, where he learned to defend himself from the lightning assault. And thanks for clearing up the Yoda-went-in-to-kill-Sidious debate. I was about to throw something at my computer.
Please read my other points and give me your rebuttle. Like I said. The margin between Sidious and Yoda would be measured in hairs not inches.
Janus, I could almost agree with that. But Yoda was not holding back. I'm sorry, but he went in the building to kill Sidious. This was his ultimate goal, whereas Sidious's goal was to survive. Yoda was letting all out.
Faunus covered this best. Yoda was not holding back to kill Sidious, but he most certainly wasn't fighting the same way. The Code (Which Yoda himself set down and followed for centuries) holds him back.
And really, you tell me... How was Yoda able to suddenly turn that lightning back on Sidious if they were anywhere near equal? I'd like to hear a theory on this from you. If Jim and Bob are of similar physical strength and they are pushing against one another, there will be no give. But when Bob starts to push on Jim, Jim is leaning back, and then suddenly Jim pushes Bob forward... this is not equal strength.
In their saber duel, Sidious kept a central position save when he moved into the Chancellor's podium. At that moment, Sidious and Yoda both exchanged the position on the pod. Sidious and Yoda both went from offensive to defensive at various times.
I think the point was that Sidious, despite mostly keeping a central flat location and having a longer reach, was unable to overcome Yoda in combat. And since it's up in the air, you can say he either put away his saber or lost it. Neither scenario proves a case for anything. Yoda is clearly able to contend with Sidious very well despite his small stature, weakness, old age, and short reach, all the while manuevering rapidly on a slick rounded surface.
That is friggin' amazing.
a) The physical strength part can be countermanned. Yoda managed to use the Force to imbue him with such strength that he defeated Dooku in a saberlock, who is even larger and more bulky than Sidious. The physical strength factor isn't much. Yoda has enough Force power to make up the difference.
Yoda says a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. It is reasonable to assume the same works for a Sith. If Sidious was greater in Force powers, why did he not augment his strength even more and simply overpower Yoda?
Also, Dooku has more Force power (Or perhaps mastery even) than Obi-Wan. He picked the guy up in combat and chucks him like a ragdoll. Now, Yoda is no Sith. He will not choke someone. But Sidious has no such prohibitions and yet he did not once try and use anything besides the pods (When he had distance) and the lightning (when Yoda was too close and he was saberless).
And if Sidious simply tucked away his saber I would think he would have kept it drawn when Yoda came back at him.
b) You forget that Sidious deflected all of Yoda's thrusts and blows as well. Their battle showed an equal amount of ability between both of the combatants. Sidious and Yoda both went on the offensive and the defensive on the podium, and neither managed to land a blow to one another.
See above. Sidious had a significant advantage and from what I'm seeing lost his saber and was unable to overcome Yoda. If you really want to say they're equal, fine. I disagree with this entirely, but I don't feel like arguing something that is this evident to me.
c) No. The OT ensured Sidious's survival, but not the fact that Yoda did not kill him during the duel. Lucas orchestrated the fight so that both of them survived. If Yoda, during the duel, had the chance to kill Sidious, he would have - and not because of the OT - which is becoming a very lethargic excuse.
Lethargic excuse? It's fate. If Anakin is meant to be let's just say, king of Manaan... no one can prevent this. Because Star Wars works backwards and has an established timeline, there is NO WAY characters in the story can operate outside of the nature of their predetermined fate. It's not a "lethargic excuse"; it's being undermined by predestiny.
Because Yoda didn't kill Sidious doesn't preclude neccessarily that he couldn't. And the presence of an original trilogy where both lives DOES mean that neither can kill the other, regardless of abilities.
So you're telling me that when Obi-Wan could've finished off Anakin when he left him to die, that he simply didn't do it because: Gee, Anakin is needed for the OT, so I better let him live? No. The point is that the duels were orchestrated for neither combatant to die. If Yoda had the chance to kill Sidious, he would have, as Yoda was the one who, out of the two, wished ill intent, and was willing to get it at all costs.
Uh, it's pretty damn obvious that GL isn't gonna rewrite the series just because Yoda can beat Sidious. The OT is already written and the PT has to adhere to it. Neither one could die, but Yoda was from what I've seen superior. And that's where we stand. This isn't an excuse, it's the truth.
Originally posted by Escape81
a) This is possible. It's true, I have no way of arguing it. But then again, why didn't Count Dooku as well? Perhaps it is a trick known only to Yoda in his many years as a Jedi? Who is to say? Perhaps Sidious simply did not think to do it? Anything is possible. But why did neither Sidious or Dooku augment their already superior strength to help them overcome Yoda?
I don't think Yoda is the only one who is capable of augmenting his strength. But possibly he can augment it to greater heights due to a superior power level?
b) Sidious managed to maintain a stationary position longer than Yoda, this is true. But then again, Yoda really doesn't ever seem to be skilled at maintaining a stationary position, since Ataru is the style of immense acrobatics. It is quite possible that Yoda had to maintain a status of the offensive to keep up with Sidious. But I will tell you, when Yoda did manage to break to the middle, he was forced back again. As I said, the difference isn't much. Yoda and Sidious both rained blows down on one another, and none ever landed.
Or perhaps Sidious needed to stay in the middle to avoid being pushed off the edge by Yoda's assault. But once Yoda did manage to break into the middle, I don't remember him being forced to the edge again. He caught Sidiouss in two saber-locks, contesting the position, but he was never forced out.
c) According to Dark Rendezvous, Yoda has killed. Indeed, the Jedi will kill if necessary. Considering how Sidious managed to purge the galaxy of the Jedi, and threatened to ensnare the galaxy in his tyranny, especially to a Jedi like Yoda - who has delved in the Dark Sidee - I'm most certain that he would've killed Sidious.Which is my point. Many people like to point out that Sidious attempted to flee. Thus proving that his main concern was maintaining his own life, instead of killing Yoda. Yoda stopped him, and made Sidious stay. Now, why would he do that if Yoda did not intend to put Sidious down for good? Why go at all.
"Destroy the Sith, we must" - Yoda.
Remember that quote Faunus. Yoda went in to kill Sidious, and I'm very shocked that you don't think he intended to.
I believe we've cleared this little mess up.
And I agree with your 'hairs-not-inches' statement. But I hold Yoda 'hairs' higher than Sidious. I don't mean to be stubborn, but I have yet to encounter truly substantial evidence in the Emperor's favor. I'm sure you feel the same about Yoda, however.
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
I'm going to address only the 'zOMG yuda went flieyng frter dan cideus' points lying about here. Keep in mind that I'm watching the scene as I type this.When Yoda makes his tremendous jump up to the Emperor's pod, he lands on teh very edge, outside of the guard-rail. A fraction of a second later, Palpatine, who is standing at the other side of the pod, fires a one-handed bolt of lightning, which knocks away Yoda's lightsaber. The said Jedi is visibly knocked off balance, but he still 'grabs' this bolt, and begins his little 'absorbtion' sequence. Sidious launches yet another barrage of lighting at Yoda with his other hand. Here, Yoda's upper body is jolted backwards, and he is visibly struggling to both contain the lightning and keep his balance.
This is the key part: Sidious [b]walks around the chairs
, crossing over to Yoda's side of the pod. Now, he has two rows of seats behind him, as well as a good 80% of the pod's diameter. Then, Yoda gets his 'Prepare for Pwn3ge!!' look, and shoves forward the explosive energies. Sidious is like 'WTF?!', and starts cringing and moaning, his eyes wide with pain and fear. Finally, the collection of volatile, extremely powerful Force energies explodes, and the two are sent flying.Yoda is sent off-screen, but Sidious, ah. The Emperor is flung backwards, into the chairs, flips hugely, and skids off the edge of the pod. So what happened?
Sidious slammed into the chairs, which managed to absorb the majority of his momentum. But still, he flips over them, crashes into the far side of the pod, and slips off, just barely getting a grasp on the guard-rail. Even after losing almost all of his momentum, and having the rest of it redirected upwards, so he was rising instead of flying back, he covered a distance equivalent almost to the entire pod's diameter.
Yoda's fall was completely unbroken, until he was falling straight down instead of backwards. Had Sidious not had the chairs to stop him, he would have been sent clean off the pod, as far or farther than Yoda. Interesting, considering he ways a good 4x as much as Yoda. [/B]
This entire sequence is answered very plainly.
If you know anything at all about physics, it's F = ma (force = mass * acceleration).
Since the force of the explosion is constant on all sides (we can only assume it was omnidirectional), who has the smaller mass, Sidious or Yoda? Unless Yoda has the density of a bag of bricks, this shouldn't be a tough answer.
Well, Illustrious just put the final nail in the "Yoda flew farther than Sidious, hence Sidious has more Force power" argument. Non sequitor, anyone?
Yoda won the lightning battle. He did exceptionally well on the saber battle despite his precarious position, small size, etc. And while he may not have chucked pods like Sidious he sure as hell caught one coming at him full blast very easily.
I really don't see the argument: Sidious > or = Yoda at all.
Yeah, the whole "he ways" threw me off. But I decided to break it down into something that can be completely understood.
I don't seem to understand this "Sidious wasn't thrown off the pod, ergo he's better" logic. Can someone explain how being this? How is throwing someone who was already on the edge of the pod demonstrating mastery over them?
How is being able to escape to higher ground when you use the senate room every day demonstrate mastery? How is being able to let gravity do its thing demonstrating superior force power versus someone who worked against it and still fought to a stalemate?
I really need some explanations there, that just seems illogical.