Originally posted by Ianus
Good point. Someone find the missing footage and we'll analyze it then.
Unfortunately for either of us, the scene in question isn't among the DVD's assortment of deleted scenes. There are times I wish that the Palpatine v. Yoda battle was not intermingled with Anakin and Obi-Wan's... Does anyone know the title for Yoda's duel with Sidious? Maul v. Kenobi and Jinn was the Duel of Fates. So what's Yoda v. Sidious?
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I got another question, why didn't Yoda and Obi-wan simply toss a bomb in Sidious' office?
The true questions are these:
a) How did Yoda know where to find Sidious exactly, considering the Sith Lord was adept at shielding himself from the Jedi.
b) Why isn't it, that the Grand Convocation Chamber, and the Senate building as a whole, not have multiple security censors that would detect Yoda's presence through a variety of means, to the point where alarms would be triggered that alert Sidious to Yoda's presence?
Originally posted by Escape81
The true questions are these:a) How did Yoda know where to find Sidious exactly, considering the Sith Lord was adept at shielding himself from the Jedi.
b) Why isn't it, that the Grand Convocation Chamber, and the Senate building as a whole, not have multiple security censors that would detect Yoda's presence through a variety of means, to the point where alarms would be triggered that alert Sidious to Yoda's presence?
Sidious probably couldn't shield himself when drawing heavily on the force, allowing Yoda to figure out who he was when he fought Mace.
Yoda can cloak himself in the force. The camera wouldn't see him.
Oh no...not that Yoda vs Sidious thing again... 😉
a) "Throwing pods"
Why I love your detailed observation of the scene I think you have still missed a little detail. Those Senate pods are designed to fly around. The amount of force energy needed to "throw" them is thereby very little. Basically it's enough to use the controls and make them fly up and then turn the controls of and force push them a little bit to make them smash down. In the few moments where Yoda dodges the pods being thrown at him (and jumps over them) you can see that some pods are still flying around above him.
The pods that are thrown down by Sidious always do ballistical movements downwards and here you have two differents to the pod thrown by Yoda.
First: Yoda is stopping a pod being thrown at him which would take far more energy than throwing it down.
Second: When he throws it back at Sidious it's moving up in a straight line movement which again would take more energy than throwing it downwards in a ballistical movement.
From the things that can seen there Yoda > Sidious.
b) "Force fight"
We can see that Yoda did pretty much defeat Sidious in the lightning battle he was in a position of disadvantage, Sidious even pushed forward and then Yoda recovered and pushed Sidious backward (Sidiou was nearly falling on his back right before the explosion happened).
Again Yoda > Sidious
c) "Yoda being pushed back further because he landed on the central pod"
Well sorry Glentract but this is stupid. In the first few pictures of the "pod throwing sequence" you can see that Yoda is jumping down from the central pod while Sidious is maybe on even level with the central pod. Then Sidious is also jumping down from his position when Yoda threw the pod at him. There is no chance that Yoda could have landed on the central pod after being blasted off by the explosion and falling down for 2 or 3 seconds.
And when he finally reaches the bottom of the Senate chamber, you can even see that he's lying very close to one side of it and not in the middle which would have been the case if he has fallen down from the central pod. So the explosion threw Sidious farther than Yoda.
Still Yoda > Sidious.
@Escape81:
and it is more logical that Palpatine did indeed 'tuck' the blade away, but only to shift to ranged assault, where he could potentially find a greater advantage to exploit
How the hell would Sidious manage to get his blade away while fighting Yoda on very close range ? The moment he would have disabled it, Yoda would have wasted him. The ROTS script provides the the only logical explanataion. Yoda disarmed Sidious and Sidious recovered with force lightning knocking Yoda of for some seconds that he used to get away. In any other situation Yoda would have cut him down or followed him which he didn't as we saw that Sidious somehow managed to gain the "higher ground" and was on the higher ground when Yoda jumped away from the central pod.
And to answer your questions:
Sidious had no reason to cloud his presence longer because all Jedi on Coruscant were killed (Anakin's attack on the temple) and he didn't think that one of the Jedi could have survived Order 66. Therefore Yoda was able to sense him in the building.
And have you ever seen any security devices in the Senate building ? I didn't and even when their were some Yoda could have tricked them.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh no...not that Yoda vs Sidious thing again... 😉a) "Throwing pods"
Why I love your detailed observation of the scene I think you have still missed a little detail. Those Senate pods are designed to fly around. The amount of force energy needed to "throw" them is thereby very little. Basically it's enough to use the controls and make them fly up and then turn the controls of and force push them a little bit to make them smash down. In the few moments where Yoda dodges the pods being thrown at him (and jumps over them) you can see that some pods are still flying around above him.
Turns out the people who have been talking about this for the last few hours are a step ahead of you. You infact, have missed a little detail.
Only some Senate Pods were designed to fly. You can actually see the beams breaking as he is ripping them from their mounting on the walls.
Because of this, they have no controls, no repulsors, and are opperated entirely on Sidious' own power.
There is a simple explanation for the pods above Sidious, he put those up there. He is moving mutiple pods at a time.
Originally posted by Borbarad
The pods that are thrown down by Sidious always do ballistical movements downwards and here you have two differents to the pod thrown by Yoda.
First: Yoda is stopping a pod being thrown at him which would take far more energy than throwing it down.
Second: When he throws it back at Sidious it's moving up in a straight line movement which again would take more energy than throwing it downwards in a ballistical movement.
Once again, way ahead of you.
First: Yoda is only stopping the energy, not creating it.
Second: Sidious also throws several of the pods into the air in an upwards motion. Notice him waving his hand back and three pods fly high into the air above him. "Like a cobra posing for an attack" as Escape would say.
Also, notice that the only time Sidious did not bring the pod over him was the time Yoda caught it, the rest of the times, Yoda was forced to dodge the pods.
Originally posted by Borbarad
From the things that can seen there Yoda > Sidious.
If they were true, yes, but they are not. Sidious > Yoda
Originally posted by Borbarad
b) "Force fight"
We can see that Yoda did pretty much defeat Sidious in the lightning battle he was in a position of disadvantage, Sidious even pushed forward and then Yoda recovered and pushed Sidious backward (Sidiou was nearly falling on his back right before the explosion happened).Again Yoda > Sidious
Again, you are wrong. Yoda has both feet planted on the ground. Yoda was in no disadvantageous position.
We can also see quite easily if we slow the video down that Sidious is still almost completely upright before the explosion. The camera angle of Sidious' close-up makes it look like he is leaning back, but the side view clearly shows that he is not.
Again Sidious > Yoda
Originally posted by Borbarad
c) "Yoda being pushed back further because he landed on the central pod"
Well sorry Glentract but this is stupid. In the first few pictures of the "pod throwing sequence" you can see that Yoda is jumping [b]down from the central pod while Sidious is maybe on even level with the central pod. Then Sidious is also jumping down from his position when Yoda threw the pod at him. There is no chance that Yoda could have landed on the central pod after being blasted off by the explosion and falling down for 2 or 3 seconds. [/B]
Gosh, I might as well start copy, pasting "wrong".
Apparently you forgot that the scene changes for nearly a minute, during that time, Yoda and Sidious move away from the Center pod. You can tell they are on a different pod because the center one has two semi-wall things on it. The one Yoda starts on is not that pod.
Sidious does fall, but by this time, they were hundreds of feet above the center pod. The were still above it at this time.
Let me post the proof I posted before, but you apparently neglected to read.
"Look at the pod Yoda lands on. It a unique pod, none of the others in the chamber look like it. It is the center pod, shown for only a second or two.
YOu can tell this because it has those two simi-wall things that Yoda and Sidious are standing on when they fight.
It also is by itself, none of the other ones are alone like this.
Plus, the floor in the backround of the shot it a circular pattern. This has not been shown around any of the other pods.
Added to that, the little buttons can be seen for a brief moment when Yoda is trying to grap on(about a second before the close up of Yoda's nails scratching the side of the pod) and they are the same as the ones on the center pod during the lightsaber fight.
If all that wasn't enough, Yoda crashed by some of the pods Sidious through at him. The angle these were thrown at shows Yoda is on the other side of the chamber.
And the absolute proof that Yoda fell on the center pod it that if you play it frame bby frame, as Yoda is falling, the pod he was holding on to is held up by a large pole. Only the pod in the center of the chamber had this feature. It is almost impossible to see unless you play it slowed down."
Originally posted by Borbarad
And when he finally reaches the bottom of the Senate chamber, you can even see that he's lying very close to one side of it and [b]not in the middle which would have been the case if he has fallen down from the central pod. So the explosion threw Sidious farther than Yoda.Still Yoda > Sidious. [/B]
Wrong. You assumed Yoda did not land on the central pod, which I have proven the he did.
You assumed that Yoda fell straight down from the pod he grabbed onto. You can clearly see that he did not and that he his a crashed pod after he hit the center pod and bounced another fifteen or so feet.
You also missed that the bottom of the Senate Chamber is only about 75 feet across. Yoda did hit the center pod and was thrown back father than Sidious.
Still Sidious > Yoda.
It seems to me that you didn't read the prior post in this thread, which in one form or another answers everysingle argument you made. This was what caused my sarcastic tone, sorry if it offended you.
I'm going to address only the 'zOMG yuda went flieyng frter dan cideus' points lying about here. Keep in mind that I'm watching the scene as I type this.
When Yoda makes his tremendous jump up to the Emperor's pod, he lands on teh very edge, outside of the guard-rail. A fraction of a second later, Palpatine, who is standing at the other side of the pod, fires a one-handed bolt of lightning, which knocks away Yoda's lightsaber. The said Jedi is visibly knocked off balance, but he still 'grabs' this bolt, and begins his little 'absorbtion' sequence. Sidious launches yet another barrage of lighting at Yoda with his other hand. Here, Yoda's upper body is jolted backwards, and he is visibly struggling to both contain the lightning and keep his balance.
This is the key part: Sidious walks around the chairs, crossing over to Yoda's side of the pod. Now, he has two rows of seats behind him, as well as a good 80% of the pod's diameter. Then, Yoda gets his 'Prepare for Pwn3ge!!' look, and shoves forward the explosive energies. Sidious is like 'WTF?!', and starts cringing and moaning, his eyes wide with pain and fear. Finally, the collection of volatile, extremely powerful Force energies explodes, and the two are sent flying.
Yoda is sent off-screen, but Sidious, ah. The Emperor is flung backwards, into the chairs, flips hugely, and skids off the edge of the pod. So what happened?
Sidious slammed into the chairs, which managed to absorb the majority of his momentum. But still, he flips over them, crashes into the far side of the pod, and slips off, just barely getting a grasp on the guard-rail. Even after losing almost all of his momentum, and having the rest of it redirected upwards, so he was rising instead of flying back, he covered a distance equivalent almost to the entire pod's diameter.
Yoda's fall was completely unbroken, until he was falling straight down instead of backwards. Had Sidious not had the chairs to stop him, he would have been sent clean off the pod, as far or farther than Yoda. Interesting, considering he ways a good 4x as much as Yoda.
Yoda still flys over 30 feet. Sidious flys far less than that, around 8 feet. No way is some chairs going to stop him from going another 22 feet.
You would see if you play it in slow-mo that he doesn't really go off-screen. You can still see him and he flys much farther than Sidious would have, even without the chairs.
If one analyzes the scene enough, one would notice that the difference in Force powers between Yoda and Palpatine are not that much apart. If you will notice, both have moments when they appear to be superior to the other.
Again, Sidious lifts three pods directly into the air, and he does so effortlessly. Then, he jerks his left arm back behind him, and one of the pods flies back, in accordance to his arm, thus the vivid analogy of a cobra rearing back to strike.
So not only does he lift more than Yoda, but he does so in direct opposition to gravity. I did not see a well-laid opposition to this problem. Nai, Janus, or even Faunus. If you have something that can explain this, then please do so. I'm not challenging you; but it would appear that in this scene holds the key. Sidious uses the Force to lift more than Yoda, against more gravity, and he does it easier.
If this can't be argued, it would appear that either:
Yoda = Sidious in Force powers.
Or
Sidious > Yoda in Force powers.
Originally posted by Ianus
This is getting ridiculous. THis is just more factionism in the making.
Not really. I, for one, still consider you to be very much the person who took me under his wing and who helped me around here ala, my own Yoda. 😛
But at the same time, I'm combating against the problem here. It is as if the entire forums have been indoctrinated that because Yoda won the Lightning War, that he must be a vastly superior Force user. I for one also believed it. But Glentract has just landed a point that not even you, Janus, has seemed to be able to combat. In the pod scene, Sidious displays a greater use of the Force than Yoda.
If you can argue against it, please do. If not, then it would appear that Yoda and Sidious are truly equals afterall, despite those who don't wish to believe it.
Originally posted by Borbarad
How the hell would Sidious manage to get his blade away while fighting Yoda on very close range ? The moment he would have disabled it, Yoda would have wasted him. The ROTS script provides the the only logical explanataion. Yoda disarmed Sidious and Sidious recovered with force lightning knocking Yoda of for some seconds that he used to get away. In any other situation Yoda would have cut him down or followed him which he didn't as we saw that Sidious somehow managed to gain the "higher ground" and was on the higher ground when Yoda jumped away from the central pod.
a) Consider. If Sidious managed to get away from Yoda, and put a bit of distance between them, he could manage to disengage his blade and then initiate the pod-chucking contest. Forgive me, but Yoda did not dominate their lightsaber duel, and considering how he was unable to break through Sidious's defenses, it is very possible that the Dark Lord could gain a momentary advantage to escape from Yoda and transfer the duel to that of ranged assaults instead of melee.
This is logical.
b) No. The ROTS script does not make sense in this part. It does not say that Sidious blasted Yoda with lightning when Yoda disarmed him, at least the script I'm reading at the IMSDB website doesn't. It says Yoda disarmed him and then jumped down to a lower pod for no reason.
So the question I present to you, the very same one I presented to Janus, is this:
Why would Yoda (who's objective is to kill Sidious) not do the deed when he disarmed him (and Yoda has a limited time to do it) and jump down to a lower pod?
I hope you can answer this. If not, it would appear that the script is illogical and very stupid considering Yoda's objectives and his timeframe.
As for the other questions, they were sarcastic. 😛
Originally posted by Escape81
Not really. I, for one, still consider you to be very much the person who took me under his wing and who helped me around here ala, my own Yoda. 😛But at the same time, I'm combating against the problem here. It is as if the entire forums have been indoctrinated that because Yoda won the Lightning War, that he must be a vastly superior Force user. I for one also believed it. But Glentract has just landed a point that not even you, Janus, has seemed to be able to combat. In the pod scene, Sidious displays a greater use of the Force than Yoda.
If you can argue against it, please do. If not, then it would appear that Yoda and Sidious are truly equals afterall, despite those who don't wish to believe it.
Well, a good deal of my own stance was on the Force lightning war. I'll be the first to say I felt it was a showing of raw Force power. I'm also operating under the idea that just because Yoda never picked up three pods at once doesn't neccessarily mean he can't. I've given you a similar instance when I said that Sidious didn't (And based on the logic that has been followed here) can't stop the pod coming at him, whereas Yoda stopped one flying more than twice as fast and coming downhill instantly. Instantly. I am not joking on that.
That is impressive, and Sidious' three pods were also very impressive. However, because we're all sampling and there's a ton of disagreement on the use of pod throwing and catching and its abilities (And most certainly there is more instances of Sidious chucking pods than there is Yoda) it seems to me a clear indicator of their Force powers was the beam war. Sidious had the intent to kill Yoda. Yoda was defending himself, until that moment when he suddenly decided he would do more than that and he pushed the balance back from him despite being half-bent over and grimacing before. I'm of a mind to think that Yoda restrains his power more than Sidious does, and it most certainly does not make sense that they would be so evenly matched considering that Yoda has been practising the Force for so many centuries.
Now, lightsaber combat- I watched that last night too (Since I never pass up a good saber battle even when reviewing for other purposes). Sidious had a longer blade and a central position with even footing and obviously more physical power since he is two and a half or so times Yoda's size.
Yoda kept up. He hopped from side to side, he parried blows and rained blows of his own. He trapped Sidious' saber at one point and reasonably could have killed the Sith lord at that time (You might recall it... they zoom in on Yoda for the saberlock...) Why didn't Yoda kill his opponent? The OT. His fate is sealed, but that doesn't neccessarily make him equal to or worse than Sidious. Anakin was better in Obi-Wan in lightsaber technique and raw Force power, yet Obi-Wan outmanuevered him and beat him decisively. Sometimes the little kid ont he playground punches the big bully in the nose and gets a KO.
Janus, I could almost agree with that. But Yoda was not holding back. I'm sorry, but he went in the building to kill Sidious. This was his ultimate goal, whereas Sidious's goal was to survive. Yoda was letting all out.
In their saber duel, Sidious kept a central position save when he moved into the Chancellor's podium. At that moment, Sidious and Yoda both exchanged the position on the pod. Sidious and Yoda both went from offensive to defensive at various times.
a) The physical strength part can be countermanned. Yoda managed to use the Force to imbue him with such strength that he defeated Dooku in a saberlock, who is even larger and more bulky than Sidious. The physical strength factor isn't much. Yoda has enough Force power to make up the difference.
b) You forget that Sidious deflected all of Yoda's thrusts and blows as well. Their battle showed an equal amount of ability between both of the combatants. Sidious and Yoda both went on the offensive and the defensive on the podium, and neither managed to land a blow to one another.
c) No. The OT ensured Sidious's survival, but not the fact that Yoda did not kill him during the duel. Lucas orchestrated the fight so that both of them survived. If Yoda, during the duel, had the chance to kill Sidious, he would have - and not because of the OT - which is becoming a very lethargic excuse.
So you're telling me that when Obi-Wan could've finished off Anakin when he left him to die, that he simply didn't do it because: Gee, Anakin is needed for the OT, so I better let him live? No. The point is that the duels were orchestrated for neither combatant to die. If Yoda had the chance to kill Sidious, he would have, as Yoda was the one who, out of the two, wished ill intent, and was willing to get it at all costs.
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
This is getting ridiculous. No one's going to budge, which should be obvious, and so I don't understand the point of any further debates.
Not to me. I am willing to budge. If you notice, I disagreed with Darth Glentract until he provided me with proof that managed to convince me to change my opinion. His point was an exceptional one, and it is something that neither Janus nor Nai have been able to successfully oppose, despite their staggering debating ability. I'm not being sarcastic when I say this. But it is simply nothing you can argue around. During the pod battle, Sidious used the Force better than Yoda did.
Originally posted by Escape81
Janus, I could almost agree with that. But Yoda was not holding back. I'm sorry, but he went in the building to kill Sidious. This was his ultimate goal, whereas Sidious's goal was to survive. Yoda was letting all out.In their saber duel, Sidious kept a central position save when he moved into the Chancellor's podium. At that moment, Sidious and Yoda both exchanged the position on the pod. Sidious and Yoda both went from offensive to defensive at various times.
a) The physical strength part can be countermanned. Yoda managed to use the Force to imbue him with such strength that he defeated Dooku in a saberlock, who is even larger and more bulky than Sidious. The physical strength factor isn't much. Yoda has enough Force power to make up the difference.
Well according to you, Sidious is as strong or stronger than Yoda in terms of physical strength. So wouldn't he be able to augment his strength as well, to levels far beyond those of Yoda?
b) You forget that Sidious deflected all of Yoda's thrusts and blows as well. Their battle showed an equal amount of ability between both of the combatants. Sidious and Yoda both went on the offensive and the defensive on the podium, and neither managed to land a blow to one another.
True. But then again Sidious managed to stay in the center of podium for the majority of the duel, while Yoda was forced to leap around the edge to gain a solid footing. And even then, the Jedi Master managed to break into the middle. So even from a vantage point, Sidious couldn't best Yoda. and in the end, when Yoda broke through, he had to flee.
c) No. The OT ensured Sidious's survival, but not the fact that Yoda did not kill him during the duel. Lucas orchestrated the fight so that both of them survived. If Yoda, during the duel, had the chance to kill Sidious, he would have - and not because of the OT - which is becoming a very lethargic excuse.So you're telling me that when Obi-Wan could've finished off Anakin when he left him to die, that he simply didn't do it because: Gee, Anakin is needed for the OT, so I better let him live? No. The point is that the duels were orchestrated for neither combatant to die. If Yoda had the chance to kill Sidious, he would have, as Yoda was the one who, out of the two, wished ill intent, and was willing to get it at all costs.
Escape, Yoda is a Jedi. And even in life and death situations, magnified to a galactic scale, there are things that he absolutely cannot do. After 900 years of following the Code, it's like reflex to him. There are just some things that he will not do.
According to Dark Rendezvous, Yoda has delved into the Dark Arts in his past, but only to familiarize himself with it, and to learn to defend himself from it. So it is safe to say that he has knowledge and power that we don't ever get to see in the movies. And do you know what would have happened had he gone all out? I'll give you three guesses.
a) This is possible. It's true, I have no way of arguing it. But then again, why didn't Count Dooku as well? Perhaps it is a trick known only to Yoda in his many years as a Jedi? Who is to say? Perhaps Sidious simply did not think to do it? Anything is possible. But why did neither Sidious or Dooku augment their already superior strength to help them overcome Yoda?
b) Sidious managed to maintain a stationary position longer than Yoda, this is true. But then again, Yoda really doesn't ever seem to be skilled at maintaining a stationary position, since Ataru is the style of immense acrobatics. It is quite possible that Yoda had to maintain a status of the offensive to keep up with Sidious. But I will tell you, when Yoda did manage to break to the middle, he was forced back again. As I said, the difference isn't much. Yoda and Sidious both rained blows down on one another, and none ever landed.
c) According to Dark Rendezvous, Yoda has killed. Indeed, the Jedi will kill if necessary. Considering how Sidious managed to purge the galaxy of the Jedi, and threatened to ensnare the galaxy in his tyranny, especially to a Jedi like Yoda - who has delved in the Dark Side - I'm most certain that he would've killed Sidious.
Which is my point. Many people like to point out that Sidious attempted to flee. Thus proving that his main concern was maintaining his own life, instead of killing Yoda. Yoda stopped him, and made Sidious stay. Now, why would he do that if Yoda did not intend to put Sidious down for good? Why go at all.
"Destroy the Sith, we must" - Yoda.
Remember that quote Faunus. Yoda went in to kill Sidious, and I'm very shocked that you don't think he intended to.