Originally posted by Illustrious
This entire sequence is answered very plainly.If you know [b]anything at all about physics
, it's F = ma (force = mass * acceleration).Since the force of the explosion is constant on all sides (we can only assume it was omnidirectional), who has the smaller mass, Sidious or Yoda? Unless Yoda has the density of a bag of bricks, this shouldn't be a tough answer. [/B]
And just how much more mass does Sidious have over Yoda? Sidious seems to be about 2.5 times larger than Yoda. Thing is that Yoda flew more than three times father than Sidious.
Also, about the whole saber battle thing over strength, haven't you, Janus, been telling me that speed is more important then strength? If so, Yoda isn't really at much of a physical disadvantage.
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
He's over twice his height, but likely four times his weight, unless you want to tell me he weighs under 80 lbs.
Yes, Sidious does weigh more, but he also has more surface area with which to "catch" the blast. Now, this added surface area wouldn't necessarily equal it out on how far they should go, but it would make is closer, maybe a 2 to 1 ratio in Yoda's favor. The problem for Yoda is that he flew more than twice as far as Sidious, negating the impact of this argument for Yoda and increasing it for Sidious.
Also, the same thing works for Yoda in saber combat. He has a far lesser amount of area to defend then other people, such as Dooku or Sidious. Yoda has an advantage in saber combat because of lack of area to hit him, but it also comes at a price in natural ability to stop from "flying" away after an explsion.
Originally posted by Ianus
The only thing that's changed for me is noticing that Sidious had to ascend the pods before he threw them. Other than that, nothing.
Still. The anomalies in the battle, ie, Yoda overpowering Sidious's Force lightning, and Sidious tossing pods far easier than Yoda, need to be very analyzed. While you may hold the Lightning-War as you call it, in higher esteem than the pod-tossing, it does not negate the facts. Yoda scored a victory by repelling Sidious's lightning, and Sidious did the same for his outstanding usage of the pods.
This leads me to believe that Yoda and Sidious both have advantages in one another in the Force. Some labor under the delusion that one would flat out own the other in either category; you have your Yoda fanboys on one hand, and the Sidious fanboys on the other, and the few who are rational, in the very middle.
The ROTS script is moot. Before a few of you jump off the deep end, I only refer to the part where Yoda supposedly disarms Sidious, and then leaps away for no reason, despite his intent to kill Sidious, and the part where he has the limited time to do it. Simply, had the battle turned out like this, it wouldn't have made sense.
Sidious and Yoda, in my view, are equals in the Force. Yoda and Sidious are both capable of using the Force for defense and offensive purposes, Yoda being the most vicious little Jedi we've seen, other than Mace. Yoda's core powers seemed to be a trifle more attuned than Sidious's own, but considering he's had eight centuries longer to use them, it would not surprise me. But I do believe Sidious and Dooku are naturally stronger Force-users than Yoda, considering how he was unable to overpower both of them, despite his overwhelming experience and mastery of the Force. Don't bite my head off, just an opinion.
Also, I read a passage from a book that catalogued all of the PT movies into a single novelization. I don't know the official name, but it is similar to the book that carries the three OT novels in one. There is a detailed passage regarding the Sidious v. Yoda duel, unlike the philosophical varient of Stover's own.
In this battle, Sidious does indeed blast Yoda, and overpowers his fledgling defenses. Yoda is nailed and hits the wall. The blow stuns him, but Yoda recovers. He does pretend to be unconscious as Sidious draws nearer. Yoda is then described as rising and blasting Sidious across the room with a Force push. But while he does so, Yoda laments that he never faced an opponent with such strength in the Force and of the Dark Side. He also says he is unsure of his own victory. It then goes to say that Sidious seemed to be unconfidant himself, as he attempted to flee. Yoda swallows his insecurities, and they duel. The duel is described as a bitter stalemate, but Sidious seeks refuge in the Senate arena to try and take the battle to his favor. It shows that Sidious and Yoda both exchange the offensive and defensive, until finally Yoda bats away Sidious's saber. But Sidious blasts Yoda with Force lightning, which causes Yoda to fall from the podium. Sidious then takes a pod. The pod scene is narrowed down to a mere paragraph. But it shows how Sidious uses the Force to rip out several pods at Yoda. Yoda decides to fight fire with fire, and manages to snatch a pod away and chuck it back, with Sidious dodging it. It then entails Yoda leaping to deliver the death blow, but is disarmed by Sidious's Force lightning. It then shows Yoda 'catching' the lightning, and holding it at bay. It then explodes and knocks them both back. The ending is how you see it in the movie.
This isn't canon, but it would seem to utilize the script's intent, for the most part, and describes the fight very well.
The one problem I have with that conclusion is that you are saying Sidious' use of the pods was comparable to Yoda winning the lightning war. Problem I see with this is that the former is a use of terrain and tactics to overwhelm an opponent while the latter is a demonstration of the two on equal grounds, with Sidious first having the advantage and then losing his ass entirely.
Well, the way I see it is this. Sidious can't be marked down for simply fighting smarter than Yoda. Yoda is a powerful Jedi and a tremendously able tactition; but Sidious - a politician, no less - fights smarter than he does. As for the terrain, Yoda has visited the Senate before. We have seen it in Expanded Universe novels, as well as AOTC. The arena is nothing spectacular. It's merely a spherical building, with numerous pods. Nothing out of the ordinary. Nothing to really take advantage of. If Yoda is the more powerful Force user, Sidious has no advantage in the pod chucking contest, and yet he displays greater feats with the pods than Yoda does. He sends three of them farther, in direct defiance with gravity, and he does so with ease. He uses more energy than Yoda does. So, the way I see it is that in the Force Mastery contest, Sidious won the pod part. And, his victory is not warranted to terrains. During the pod debacle, he fought smarter and better.
The lightning war is not being discredited. The only disadvantage Yoda has is being on the edge. But Yoda's deflection of the pod removes its kinetic energy. Yoda is not moving when the lightning is being tossed. Sidious, the one generating the lightning, is the only one capable of moving. Thus, Yoda wasn't in danger of being pushed off the side. He caught a bolt of lightning when he was disarmed, but he straightened and then caught the other. The only advantage Sidious has is mere mobility, which neither helps him or Yoda at all.
It is true. Sidious lost the lightning war. But that is Yoda's unique ability, you see. When his hands are up, he can generate a force that blocks the lightning, and then he can toss it back. In truth, the natural advantage is with Yoda.
No, I totally disagree with the conclusions being reached here. The issue was force potential/mastery and how each stack up. Sidious having/keeping tactical favor means nothing to that argument, and simply dismissing Yoda's victory over Sidious in the Force war as his "natural ability" begs for proof.
It is very simple. In my eyes, the defense Yoda has against the nature of Sith Lightning is either natural, or he discovered it while delving into his Dark Side days. In his time, he could've discovered the secret. But even then, does this make him essentially stronger? Not really. He had a long time to learn the secrets of the Force. Longer than Mace, Dooku, or Sidious. So, like Sidious with his fighting tactics, there are some things that Yoda knows about the Force that others do not. Like this deflection of Force lightning.
Yoda is only damaged when he lacks the time to erect a field of energy strong enough to repulse the Sith lightning, as was shown when he was initially blasted by Sidious. He attempted, at the last moment, to erect a shield, but was overpowered.
Sidious did the same when he disarmed Yoda, who was unable to counter the lightning before the saber was removed from his grasp. But, he used his other hand to catch the lightning, and then he used his saber hand to do the same with the other bolt.
When Yoda is prepared, no Sith lightning we have seen can breach his defenses. Now, you once said Count Dooku is the stronger Force user than Sidious, and that his lightning was stronger as well. But when Yoda was prepared, he turned away Dooku's lightning with perpetual ease. When Sidious attacked Yoda when he was prepared for his lightning, Yoda managed to repulse it as well.
Consider. The lightning thrown at Sidious did not damage the Dark Lord, as he was able to take the blast. Yoda used Sidious's own energy to use in the assault against him. Had Sidious not fired off his assault, Yoda would not have had anything to deflect. It was Sidious's energy that caused the end of the battle, not Yoda's. But Yoda did manage to turn it away, because of his unique ability to handle the lightning.
But does that defense naturally make him stronger? Water, in its liquid state, can smother flames. But in its solid state, fire can melt it. Does that necessarily make one stronger than the other?
Perhaps Yoda and Sidious had reached their potential. Notice that all people signicantly stronger then them used artificial means to enhance their strength. That would also make Anakin have the highest potential. I mean, even Luke had the Kaiburr crystal and DE Sidious has Naga's Amulet. This would be a relatively good explanation for Sidious and Dooku being on Yoda's level.
I don't know. Yoda's very powerful, but he's had eight centuries to uncover the secrets of the Force. Sidious and Dooku haven't had a sliver of that time, and they are able to confront Yoda and cause a stalemate, Sidious especially. Yoda's power, in my opinion, comes from his experience, moreso than his raw power. I'm not saying he is a slouch in that department, either, but most of his advantages come from what he has learned, not what he was born with.
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
In Empire Strikes Back, Yoda tells Luke that the Dark Side isn't necessarily more powerful, but it is a quicker path to power. And with someone as powerful as Sidious, I'm not surprised he was able to stand up to Yoda. He'd had almost 70 years of Sith experience, under Plagueis no less.
An excellent point. But is it that much quicker? Where, in 60+ years of training in the Dark Side, a Force user can match the powers of another Force user, with 800+ years under his belt? To me, Yoda's true power comes from his experience and age . . . not saying that he does not possess immense innate power. But Sidious and Dooku are, in my opinion, of equal or potentially greater Force potential than Yoda.