Yeah. Glentract, do you have a single instant where you can show us Luke standing up to formidable saber skills to rival Dooku's own, or showing us where he uses Force powers able to make a difference? Or is this more "Luke pwns, little training can make gods, eighty three year old jedi masters suck".
So.... are you saying that Luke can contend with ROTS Obi-Wan or Anakin? Both?
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Okay, what are your arguments?
Much better than your one-lined opinion.
1- Dooku is a makashi master. This gives him a duelling edge. Period. Vader never mastered his style and he has grown slower. ROTJ Luke has little ability at all in this area. He could reasonably tool them both, considering he took on Obi and Anakin both who are much more dangerous than Luke and Vader.
2- Dooku can force choke a jedi master of considerable experience and training while backkicking a younger Vader. This shows that he can easily deal with two dangerous opponents. Since neither Vader nor Luke has shown the ability to overcome by Force someone of Dooku's level (And Glentract, remember you said that Dooku was close to Sidious. In force power terms this would make Vader 80% of Dooku if you want to get petty. Dooku > Luke > Vader by your own previous arguments. He could probably Force choke one and saber the other to death. KO).
In case you slept through the fight, here's the scene:
Do you see that? Prove to me that Vader and Anakin can contend with him. Even your arbitrary power levels favor my argument.
Originally posted by Ianus
1- Dooku is a makashi master. This gives him a duelling edge. Period. Vader never mastered his style and he has grown slower. ROTJ Luke has little ability at all in this area. He could reasonably tool them both, considering he took on Obi and Anakin both who are much more dangerous than Luke and Vader.
Anakin was stated as the greatest form five practitioner alive.(This was in PT times). Vader has gotten better than Anakin, as can be expected from an additional 20 years of training.
The thought that Anakin and Obi-wan are better then Luke and Vader is unfounded. Vader is 80% of ROTJ Sidious, who is better than ROTS Sidious. ROTS Sidious is ~ equal to ROTS Dooku. That means Vader >80% Dooku. By how much is not known for sure, but it is a fair bit, to be sure. ROTJ Luke is even greater than this.
ROTJ Vader = 80% ROTJ Sidious
80% ROTJ Sidious > 80% ROTS Sidious
80% ROTS Sidious = 80% Dooku
Vader > 80% ROTS Dooku
Now, we don't know how much greater ROTJ Sidious is over ROTS Sidious, but it must be by a lot, seeing as he had Bodo Bass' holocron, the entire Jedi Archives, and more at his disposal. Vader may be more like 90% of Dooku. Since Luke is better then Vader, he must be on Dooku's level on his own.
I am guessing that you base you assumption that Anakin and Obi-wan are better then Luke and Vader on shown dueling skill. This cannot be used as base proof. Look at how Anakin and Obi-wan fight Dooku and then look at how they fight each other at the end of the movie. They are FAR better at the end of the movie then when they fight Dooku, yet this is only a few days later. On screen lightsaber fighting is for dramatic-necessity and should not be compared from one fight to another as an indication of skill.
Originally posted by Ianus
2- Dooku can force choke a jedi master of considerable experience and training while backkicking a younger Vader. This shows that he can easily deal with two dangerous opponents. Since neither Vader nor Luke has shown the ability to overcome by Force someone of Dooku's level (And Glentract, remember you said that Dooku was close to Sidious. In force power terms this would make Vader 80% of Dooku if you want to get petty. Dooku > Luke > Vader by your own previous arguments. He could probably Force choke one and saber the other to death. KO).In case you slept through the fight, here's the scene:
Do you see that? Prove to me that Vader and Anakin can contend with him. Even your arbitrary power levels favor my argument.
Never overcome someone on Dooku's level? Vader defeated Echuu Shen Jon. Echuu was a powerful Jedi Master, student of Mace, and Jedi who survived the Purge for 19 years. Echuu defeated Sev-rance Tann, a powerful Dark Acolyte and commander of the Separatist Forces. He is around ROTS Obi-wan's level from what I can tell, yet Vader pwned him. Vader also took ANH Obi-wan, who seems to be better than ROTS Obi-wan(nto because of on screen fighting, but remember that we can't go by that as it is too inconsistent.).
That's two Jedi, both of whom are around Obi-wan and Anakin's power that Vader took.
Also, you are thinking that Obi-wan and Anakin are 80% as good as Dooku. This cannot or at least has not been proved.
Glentract, you COMPLETELY misinterpreted GL's quotes. Vader is 80% of Sidious's force potential , not UBER WHOOP ASS POWERS. If they really were whoop ass abilities then the following two GL sourced facts will fall out of place:
1. OT Vader is a declinement from ROTS Anakin.
2. ROTS Anakin, after turning dark, is 200% of Sidious.
By your logic, Anakin is 200% of Sidious, and Obi-Wan defeated Anakin, therefore Obi-Wan > 200% of Sidious. Hey, that means he can take on Dooku and Sidious at the same time! Also by that logic, Obi-Wan and Anakin should have completely and utterly torn Dooku apart, but no, that wasn't the case.
You didn't know that OT Vader is a lot weaker than ROTS Anakin? That is one of the most well-known fact from GL regarding the transformation from Anakin to mech-Vader. Anyways, I believe it can be found in the ROTJ DVD commentary. GL's quote was somewhere in the lines of Vader being, in terms of power, "a shell of his former self"
I'm still looking for the source for the second one.
Anakin was stated as the greatest form five practitioner alive.(This was in PT times).
Proof? Source?
Vader has gotten better than Anakin, as can be expected from an additional 20 years of training.
Proof? Source? From what we see in movie he's worse. Movie is ultimate canon. Also, the GL quote that Obi-Ninja is refering to contradicts this statement.
The thought that Anakin and Obi-wan are better then Luke and Vader is unfounded.
On the contrary, Anakin and Obi-Wan are one of the best teams in the series. Vader and Luke would be like George Washington and the kid from Signs as far as teamwork goes. And it's pretty EVIDENT that Vader and Luke in the movies (THE highest form of canon, which you have yourself said before) are nowhere near as coordinated nor as skilled as Anakin and Obi-Wan.
So really, the idea that Vader and ROTJ Luke are better than Anakin and Obi-Wan as a fighting force lies with proof you have yet to provide.
Vader is 80% of ROTJ Sidious, who is better than ROTS Sidious.
Proof? Source?
ROTS Sidious is ~ equal to ROTS Dooku.
Proof? Source? Many here will argue he is lesser. Certainly, he displays equal or lesser feats.
That means Vader >80% Dooku.
Really? I still need proof of ROTJ Sidious being greater than ROTS Sidious in Force potential....
By how much is not known for sure, but it is a fair bit, to be sure. ROTJ Luke is even greater than this.
Proof of this? Sources? Is any of this evident or is it unfounded?
ROTJ Vader = 80% ROTJ Sidious
80% ROTJ Sidious > 80% ROTS Sidious
80% ROTS Sidious = 80% Dooku
Vader > 80% ROTS Dooku
Proof of ROTJ Sidious being greater than ROTS Sidious in force potential?
Now, we don't know how much greater ROTJ Sidious is over ROTS Sidious, but it must be by a lot, seeing as he had Bodo Bass' holocron, the entire Jedi Archives, and more at his disposal. Vader may be more like 90% of Dooku.
Oh, cute. "U" representing an Unknown, must be 90% of D because of other unknowns (The unknown qualities of the teachings he had... and somehow they affect his force potential).
Since Luke is better then Vader, he must be on Dooku's level on his own.
lmao! You bloody Luke fanboy. Luke is not better than Vader. If he is as you say, you need to PROVE UP.
I am guessing that you base you assumption that Anakin and Obi-wan are better then Luke and Vader on shown dueling skill. This cannot be used as base proof.
Yes, it can. Movie scenes are the ultimate level of canon. I can use them and I plan to. If the ultimate canon cannot be used, all this arguing is for nothing.
Look at how Anakin and Obi-wan fight Dooku and then look at how they fight each other at the end of the movie. They are FAR better at the end of the movie then when they fight Dooku, yet this is only a few days later.
Uh, they are fighting each other, not Dooku. There is a fundamental difference in them attacking each other, since they are closer in level and it's one on one. I thought this was EVIDENT. Apparently you see only what you want to see.
On screen lightsaber fighting is for dramatic-necessity and should not be compared from one fight to another as an indication of skill.
So you're saying we can't use movie fights now? lmao.... Luke fanboy. Go away, Glentract. I am officially disappointed in the level you've stooped to.
Never overcome someone on Dooku's level? Vader defeated Echuu Shen Jon. Echuu was a powerful Jedi Master, student of Mace, and Jedi who survived the Purge for 19 years. Echuu defeated Sev-rance Tann, a powerful Dark Acolyte and commander of the Separatist Forces. He is around ROTS Obi-wan's level from what I can tell, yet Vader pwned him. Vader also took ANH Obi-wan, who seems to be better than ROTS Obi-wan(nto because of on screen fighting, but remember that we can't go by that as it is too inconsistent.).
No, Glentract... you're right. We can't go by the highest level canon. That would be bad for the Luke fanboy club! lmao
And prove to me how Echuu equals ROTS Obi-Wan?
That's two Jedi, both of whom are around Obi-wan and Anakin's power that Vader took.
Proof? Sources? Anything?
Also, you are thinking that Obi-wan and Anakin are 80% as good as Dooku. This cannot or at least has not been proved.
80% in force potential? Well, it's all movies anyways, Glentract. We can't use movie canon. Let's use Luke/Vader biased sources and hyperbole instead.
Consider yourself