Wolverine's villains Vs Spidermans

Originally posted by Dizzle
Meh, whatever. Rivals describes it well enough for me. Friends, with a clear line drawn between them. Point is, Magneto is definitely not mainly a Wolverine villain.

You're still not explaining it well enough. Why else would it have even been a question for Wolverine to kill magneto in HOM? sure he let him live, because he decided that living powerless was a worse fate.

Originally posted by Creshosk
I'm still not seeing any reason for Hulk and Wolverine to not be in each other's "rouge gallery"

And wolverine does have personal reasons for taking Magneto out. . I bet that whole adamantium exctraction during fatal attractions certainly didn't have Wolverine likeing mags. . .

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Hmm... when she was a villain she was an X-Men villain and she often went after Storm specifically, her first appearance she kidnapped three X-Men but only tried to subvert Storm's mind, she tried to steal Storm's body not long after as well.

Would Cyclops be a "prersonal rival" They've seemed to be rivals for quite some time despite being on the same team.

What about Spiderman? There's no love lost between those two anymore.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And I wouldn't either, Shadow King = Storm and Xavier. But usually it's pretty easy to discern if a character is a personal rogue.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Hulk is ambiguous everyone in the MU has been his opponent. I reserve judgement on him. Again I don't think any X-Man can claim Magneto as their personal rogue.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So it has dto be "mainly" a villian?

You're still not explaining it well enough. Why else would it have even been a question for Wolverine to kill magneto in HOM? sure he let him live, because he decided that living powerless was a worse fate.

Did you not read the "Hitler" post? The connection between the two has to be personal. Wolverine originally fought Mags because of Xavier. Mags never threatened something and had Wolverine alone attempt to foil him. He's ALWAYS fought with him because of the X Men.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Did you not read the "Hitler" post? The connection between the two has to be personal. Wolverine originally fought Mags because of Xavier. Mags never threatened something and had Wolverine alone attempt to foil him. He's ALWAYS fought with him because of the X Men.

🙄

Originally posted by Creshosk
But would you still consider them rogues of one another? Or even one to the other?

Would Cyclops be a "personal rival" They've seemed to be rivals for quite some time despite being on the same team.

What about Spiderman? There's no love lost between those two anymore.

So only certain characters can share a rogue?

The enmity should be based on a personal antagonism, usually on the villains side, rather than just coincidence of association. Lady Deathstrike personally antagonises Wolverine. Sabretooth personally antagonises Wolverine. Donald Pierce personally antagonises Wolverine.

Magneto does not personally antagonise Wolverine. He is an X-Men villain.

Additionally if someone is a personal rogue, the hero predominantly tends to fight said rogue on his or her own.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I corrected your typos because I'm an obsessive-compulsive.

The enmity should be based on a personal antagonism, usually on the villains side, rather than just coincidence of association. Lady Deathstrike personally antagonises Wolverine. Sabretooth personally antagonises Wolverine. Donald Pierce personally antagonises Wolverine.

Magneto does not personally antagonise Wolverine. He is an X-Men villain.

Additionally personal if someone is a personal rogue, the hero predominantly tends to fight said rogue on his or her own.

Since Wolverine only fights Hulk on his own. And vice versa.

just food for thought:

wolverine's fought hulk more times than spiderman's thrown down with:

carnage,
morlun,
absorbing man,
shocker,
kingpin,
morbius,
and a handful or two of other spiderman "villains", hell he's fought hulk more times than spiderman has fought some of his villains combined.

the real problem here is that we really do need a definition to describe what a personal rogue, or personal villain really is.

to the point on hulk and magneto, both are obviously portrayed as rivals of wolverine. Cresh was absolutely correct in his assessment that hulk (more often than not... and not professer hulk, since prof, hulk actually constituted that he liked wolverine) hates wolverine, or "the little man" as he's come to call him. Marvel has pretty much come to the conclusion that wolverine vs. hulk is one of the best selling/most popular grudge matches in comics. For magneto, the previous statements were also correct in that magneto reveirs wolverine as his "most respected foe". I interpretted this to equate to magneto having a respect for wolverine's sense of honor, assertive nature, and realistic attitude. However I can understand how people would argue that magneto appears as a wolverine villain. Just look at x-men 25... the consequences of what magneto did to wolverine effected him for the next half a decade in his comic book career. Magneto has personally ripped the admantium out of logan's body, logan personally gutted magneto, wolverine personally took off magneto's head. The cause/effect relationship that the two have (at a personal level) is something that seems to be far more substantial than that of the cause/effect relationship spidey shares with most of his villains. While it's true that wolverine's rivalry with magneto has stemmed from his participation in the x-men, it should also be considered that simply because there are other bystanders present during confrontations between the two, the genuin and PERSONAL nature of their rivalry is no less prevailent. While I wouldn't consider magneto a rogue of wolverine's, they are however consistenly at odds, hence, rivals. I personally agree that magneto isn't a wolverine rogue, but he IS a rival, as is hulk (and thus far the arguments against hulk have generally been cop-outs... but I'm open to a good argument).

to the question at hand.. (as I said before, we really need a definition here to properly debate the issue, until then I feel we're arguing over nothing in a sense)... off the top of my head, I think this is truly a tough decision. While in terms of h2h, I certainly give the spidey villains a major edge. Wolverine faces off against great fighters with lots of durability and stamina, but spiderman's villains almost always need a plot device to be beaten in a strait up brawl. The MAJOR problem for the spidey villains though is that wolverine has a large portion of his own villains that are mystical in power. Ogun for instance could potentially off the entirety of spiderman's "rogues" with relative ease. gorgon could just take off his sunglasses and that's half the fight over right there... there are too many variables to debate this properly.

we need
1) a definition of "rogue". and...
2) perhaps a certified list of villains (that everyone can agree on) for each character for easier assessment.

Again I reserve judgement on Hulk. I haven't fully decided.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yes I'm sure that adamantium ripping thing didn't have anything to do with Wolverine's attempts to KILL Magneto.

🙄

Originally posted by jinzin
wolverine personally took off magneto's head.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Xorn?

yeah you're right, my bad, but at the moment he had the same appearance, and powers. the consequences of wolverine's actions were a direct result of said rivalry... even so.. hom.

Cassandra Nova killed millions of mutants on Genosha, including all of Emma Frost's students (if you know her character, you know that despite being a ***** she's a dedicated teacher), she herself would have died if not for the emergence of a secondary mutation.
Emma Frost snaps Cassandra Nova's neck.
Cassandra Nova is her personal rogue?

Rival, rogue/villain and enemy are three different things.

Namor's rivals are Hulk, Reed, Thing. He's on the same team with Hulk, yet they are always going at it. Trying to prove who is strongest. Theyve fought many times. Sometimes long, sometimes short battles. Yet Hulk considers "Fish-Man" a friend. Namor has also vowed to crush both Reed and Thing, yet doesnt because of Sue. Thus they have remained allies over the years.

Namors villains/rogues are Tigershark, Attuma, Orca, Warlord Krang.

Hes fought Dr.Doom a few times but Dr.Doom wouldnt be considered a Namor rogue. Just an enemy. Theyve even teamed up on a couple of occasions. Theres not much love between the two. However if Namor saw Doom on the street, he wouldnt go and attack him like he would Attuma or Krang, or Llyra.

Namor has also fought Daredevil and Ironman a couple of times. Does that mean Daredevil and Ironman are Namor villains? No. Are they his enemies? No. Usually theyve fought due to a misunderstanding.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Again I reserve judgement on Hulk. I haven't fully decided.
On Magneto I am quite clear. Magneto has been an [b]X-Men villain since before the character Wolverine even existed. He is the archetypal X-Men villain, the paradigm. He is a rogue of the X-Men as a whole. To claim that he is Wolverine's enemy, moreso than other X-Men and thus a Wolverine rogue, denigrates the other X-Men. [/B]

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Cassandra Nova killed millions of mutants on Genosha, including all of Emma Frost's students (if you know her character, you know that despite being a ***** she's a dedicated teacher), she herself would have died if not for the emergence of a secondary mutation.
Emma Frost snaps Cassandra Nova's neck.
Cassandra Nova is her personal rogue?

Everything you've been describing certainly points to a prersonal hatred.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yes because Wolverine could never have a personal grudge against someone who existed long before he did *coughhulkcough*

That's all the point he is making in his post?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Cassandra Nova killed millions of mutants on Genosha, including all of Emma Frost's students (if you know her character, you know that despite being a ***** she's a dedicated teacher), she herself would have died if not for the emergence of a secondary mutation.
Emma Frost snaps Cassandra Nova's neck.
Cassandra Nova is her personal rogue?

why does this matter? 🤨

if this is supposed to be some sort of comparison with wolverine and magneto.. cause if so, it fails. ❌ did you even read my post?

you would have to ignore the personal relationship the two men have to accurately justify that as a comparison.. but then that really wouldn't be justified anyway. 😉

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
That's all the point he is making in his post?

And mentioning magneto being around before wolverine insinuates that the rouge of the character has to exist or be created after the character in question.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yes because Wolverine could never have a personal grudge against someone who existed long before he did *coughhulkcough*

Originally posted by Creshosk
Why not?

Everything you've been describing certainly points to a prersonal hatred.