Originally posted by jrodslam
Rival, rogue/villain and enemy are three different things.
Namor's rivals are Hulk, Reed, Thing. He's on the same team with Hulk, yet they are always going at it. Trying to prove who is strongest. Theyve fought many times. Sometimes long, sometimes short battles. Yet Hulk considers "Fish-Man" a friend. Namor has also vowed to crush both Reed and Thing, yet doesnt because of Sue. Thus they have remained allies over the years.Namors villains/rogues are Tigershark, Attuma, Orca, Warlord Krang.
Hes fought Dr.Doom a few times but Dr.Doom wouldnt be considered a Namor rogue. Just an enemy. Theyve even teamed up on a couple of occasions. Theres not much love between the two. However if Namor saw Doom on the street, he wouldnt go and attack him like he would Attuma or Krang, or Llyra.
Namor has also fought Daredevil and Ironman a couple of times. Does that mean Daredevil and Ironman are Namor villains? No. Are they his enemies? No. Usually theyve fought due to a misunderstanding.
With that said, theres no doubt that Magneto would be/is a enemy of Wolverine. However he is not a Wolverine villain/rogue.
Ad populum fallacy is an appeal to popular opinion in support of something that is fallacious. Saying that people use 10% of their brains can be ad populum as this is can be a commonly held belief. Saying that (EDIT) Magneto beats Wolverine is not ad populum.
I'll incur the wrath of Wynndar if I say Galactus is not a FF rogue. The FF have means of beating Galactus via means of Reed Richard's intelligence being a huge plot device.
Originally posted by jinzin5-6 one-on-one fights? Not to my recollection. If anyone says "Wolverine has stabbed Magneto" one more time I think my head is going to explode... if anyone actually thinks Wolverine can last more than a half second against Magneto in a fight they need their head checked.
🤨dude we've seen wolverine and magneto have what 5, 6 "fights" or at the least, VERY SUBSTANTIAL CONFRONTATIONS with one another...
those confrontations are the basis for using magneto as a wolvie villain, you know that so why are you confused?
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Uh... but actually being able to fight the rogue at all is probably a requisite...
so then why are you arguing?
if wolverine couldn't fight magneto at all than he would not have gutted mags in x-men 1
gutted him again in x-men 25
gutted him again in uncanny
took of his head in new x-men (yeah xorn I know)
or the whole HoM thing.
apparently Wolverine can fight magneto just fine. In a match on the forums magneto has the power to stop (and would stop) wolverine with a thought but it makes no difference to the relationship they already have. Since this entire discussion is one built off relationships as they are in the books, PIS and CIS are not really issues that this point. The only factor then to argue in favor of is plot devices, but as I said before, a ton of spiderman's villains have to be beaten with plot devices for him to attain victory. should they be taken of his list?
Originally posted by xmarksthespotno, relying on a poll to prove either charcter beats the other is an example of using poular opinion as fact. And it doesn't matter if the actual fact is fallicious or not. as using it as the argument is the adpopulem part. it being ad populem however doesn't mean that the outcome IS false.
Ad populum fallacy is an appeal to popular opinion in support of something that is fallacious. Saying that people use 10% of their brains can be ad populum as this is can be a commonly held belief. Saying that Wolverine beats Magneto is not ad populum.
Saying Magneto beats Wolverine because of a poll, is ad populem.
Magneto does beat Wolverine however. Using a fallacy to prove something doesn't make what you're trying to prove false. The arguments are quite often seperate from the actual conclusion.
Originally posted by xmarksthespotOnly if given other plot devices. Give Wolverine a plot device and he can fight Magneto.
I'll incur the wrath of Wynndar if I say Galactus is not a FF rogue. The FF have means of beating Galactus via means of Reed Richard's intelligence being a huge plot device.
I see no difference, a plot device is a plot device..
Originally posted by xmarksthespotGive him a plot device and he can. Same as FF even attempting to fight Galactus.
5-6 one-on-one fights? Not to my recollection. If anyone says "Wolverine has stabbed Magneto" one more time I think my head is going to explode... if anyone actually thinks Wolverine can last more than a half second against Magneto in a fight they need their head checked.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Ad populum fallacy is an appeal to popular opinion in support of something that is fallacious. Saying that people use 10% of their brains can be ad populum as this is can be a commonly held belief. Saying that (EDIT) Magneto beats Wolverine is not ad populum.I'll incur the wrath of Wynndar if I say Galactus is not a FF rogue. The FF have means of beating Galactus via means of Reed Richard's intelligence being a huge plot device.
you can use ad populem for support of a non fallicious side of debate, but appeal to popularity does not make a strong argument.
Originally posted by jinzin
so then why are you arguing?if wolverine couldn't fight magneto at all than he would not have gutted mags in x-men 1
gutted him again in x-men 25
gutted him again in uncanny
took of his head in new x-men (yeah xorn I know)
or the whole HoM thing.
apparently Wolverine can fight magneto just fine. In a match on the forums magneto has the power to stop (and would stop) wolverine with a thought but it makes no difference to the relationship they already have. Since this entire discussion is one built off relationships as they are in the books, PIS and CIS are not really issues that this point. The only factor then to argue in favor of is plot devices, but as I said before, a ton of spiderman's villains have to be beaten with plot devices for him to attain victory. should they be taken of his list?
We can see the relation ship, and the need for plot device in the case of venom quite clearly thanks to a certain someone's sig and avy. 😄
Originally posted by CreshoskYou know what come to think of no, I don't consider Galactus an FF rogue. They fight him, they stop him, but Galactus doesn't specifically seek the ruination of the FF. Doom is an FF rogue, and can easily be said to be a personal rogue of Reed.
no, relying on a poll to prove either charcter beats the other is an example of using poular opinion as fact. And it doesn't matter if the actual fact is fallicious or not. as using it as the argument is the adpopulem part. it being ad populem however doesn't mean that the outcome IS false.Saying Magneto beats Wolverine because of a poll, is ad populem.
Magneto does beat Wolverine however. Using a fallacy to prove something doesn't make what you're trying to prove false. The arguments are quite often seperate from the actual conclusion.
Only if given other plot devices. Give Wolverine a plot device and he can fight Magneto.
I see no difference, a plot device is a plot device..
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
5-6 one-on-one fights? Not to my recollection. If anyone says "Wolverine has stabbed Magneto" one more time I think my head is going to explode... if anyone actually thinks Wolverine can last more than a half second against Magneto in a fight they need their head checked.
who said they have to be completely one on one confrontations?
the fact of the matter is that the consequences of these confrontations always end in a personal manner between the two which adds contrast to the relationship making their rivalry more apparent than what you're assuming it not to be.... the word PERSONAL is the most important here and I feel you're neglecting it...
and wolverine did stab him.. why wouldn't a bone claw wolverine last 1 second against mags..
cyk and gambit ALONE have beaten magneto... wolverine can't last a second? a bone claw wolvie?
Originally posted by xmarksthespotShall we remove some Spidey enemies from his rogue's list now?
You know what come to think of no, I don't consider Galactus an FF rogue. They fight him, they stop him, but Galactus doesn't specifically seek the ruination of the FF. Doom is an FF rogue, and can easily be said to be a personal rogue of Reed.
Venom, carnage, hydroman, sandman . . . All need plot devices to fight them if I'm not mistaken.
Originally posted by jinzinExcept when its needed to use the word personal. Like Shadow king with storm as opposed to nightcrawler.
who said they have to be completely one on one confrontations?the fact of the matter is that the consequences of these confrontations always end in a personal manner between the two which adds contrast to the relationship making their rivalry more apparent than what you're assuming it not to be.... the word PERSONAL is the most important here and I feel you're neglecting it...
Originally posted by jinzinAgain simply an observation that for the most part a rogue is a personal enemy, of which the hero encounters individually, and is capable of at least fighting alone, if not necessarily winning.
who said they have to be completely one on one confrontations?the fact of the matter is that the consequences of these confrontations always end in a personal manner between the two which adds contrast to the relationship making their rivalry more apparent than what you're assuming it not to be.... the word PERSONAL is the most important here and I feel you're neglecting it...
And btw I don't expect to sway either of you away from "Magneto is a Wolverine rogue", despite the fact that even that sentence sounds strange. At the beginning of this Cresh was arguing for Magneto being an simply an enemy of Wolverine, which is true because he's an X-Man and Magneto is an X-Men villain. But that's now advanced to Magneto being one of Wolverine's rogues? jinzin stated he didn't think Magneto was one of Wolverine's rogues and yet argues for it anyway?...
Sorry I find the idea laughable, but that's just imo...