Originally posted by demigawd
I don't doubt that Celestials have psionic powers....but that's still a "physical" power. It's not, for example, an assault on the soul, or by twisting fundamental universal concepts. They haven't shown powers beyond that at all.To answer your question - I don't see the PF the way GS does. If the PF IS in fact the equivalent of the "Big Bang" or whatever, then could Wanda unmake the Big Bang? Yes. Would that constitute defeating the PF? I guess so. Could she beat Dark Phoenix, or the Phoenix who lost to Magneto, or the Phoenix who fought Galactus or the "jgg" Phoenix? Absolutely.
They step on her and she comes back. She then proceeds to unmake them. She showed in HoM #8 that she's beyond physical death. Unless they do something they've never shown the ability to do - unmake her - there's no way they can win. Meanwhile, they've shown a considerable vulnerability to physical harm. Wanda can simply flood them with hyperspace energies ala Sue Storm and demolish them all at once.
anyway, back to the actual debate . . .
perhaps it's not so cut and dried as you assume, demi. these scans are from ff 400 -- the issue where we learn about the watcher/celestial conflict that has been going on forever. the exitar has felled the ONE -- greatest/wisest/repository-of-all-knowledge watcher.
the celestials were going to eradicate them from reality. not kill them all. the previous scan says they have struggled against each other 'on every level of existence'. both of those would seem to indicate both an ability to affect OUR reality (eradicating watchers from it), as well as the ability to traverse other realities (battling watchers on other planes).
and YES, sue does use her power to pierce the armor, but why would you assume sw could generate the same vibratory power as iw? btw, that it was hyperspatial energy was just speculation in the book. but it did seem -- whatever the energy -- that sue's powers worked in some special way to upset whatever energy the celestials are comprised of/use.
Cool scans. Didn't help your argument much, though without feats by The One to prove beating him is truly impressive. I put SW above Watchers, too. 😛
Originally posted by leonidas
the celestials were going to eradicate them from reality. not kill them all. the previous scan says they have struggled against each other 'on every level of existence'. both of those would seem to indicate both an ability to affect OUR reality (eradicating watchers from it), as well as the ability to traverse other realities (battling watchers on other planes).
Except it specifically said, "Erase us from this particular reality", showing that we're dealing with a single reality - and it took thousands of years to gather even that much energy. SW certainly didn't need thousands of years to alter reality.
and YES, sue does use her power to pierce the armor, but why would you assume sw could generate the same vibratory power as iw?
Because she's a reality manipulator, maybe?
btw, that it was hyperspatial energy was just speculation in the book. but it did seem -- whatever the energy -- that sue's powers worked in some special way to upset whatever energy the celestials are comprised of/use.
In Avengers Disassembled, Wanda showed the ability to summon or create people, no matter how powerful, and use them to her own purposes. If she can summon DORMAMMU and use his powers, something tells me it won't be too hard to summon a hyperspatial energy source and do away with the lot of them.
<<Cool scans. Didn't help your argument much, though without feats by The One to prove beating him is truly impressive. I put SW above Watchers, too. >>
depends on what you think my argument is. i'm simply that it is possible the celestials CAN alter reality on some scale. in that same issue uatu and aaron battled and their battle occurred on multiple planes of reality and all around them things were . . . warped. if those 2 could do that, and it's clear the celestials are the more powerful entities seeing as how THEY were going to wipe out the watchers, it's not much of a leap to say the celestials possess similar abilities.
and its true it took 1000s of years to summon the power, but that would seem to me to be more an indication of the power of the one -- who incidentally was never in any other issues and so HAS no 'feats'. but again, it is pretty clear he is seen as the watchers' head honcho so i feel safe in assuming he is likely the most powerful of the watchers. i had this discussion a couple times recently -- not everything needs to be proven. some things can be logially discerned by context.
i'm not arguing that sw could or couldn't take them -- i never read disassembled or hom and so don't know her well enough to fairly comment. i'm just saying it seems logical to assume the celestials can indeed alter reality at least on some scale.
btw -- an interesting aside -- it seems the celestials were gonna eradicate the watchers via the implementation of some sort of genetic code that once unleashed would erase them from existence. i mentioned this before, but perhaps as master geneticists (possibly responsible for seeding the earth with the possibility of mutations?) they might be able to . . . erase sw by the same means. she's powerful, but she's still human, even if she is a mutant.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<Cool scans. Didn't help your argument much, though without feats by The One to prove beating him is truly impressive. I put SW above Watchers, too. >>depends on what you think my argument is. i'm simply that it is possible the celestials CAN alter reality on some scale. in that same issue uatu and aaron battled and their battle occurred on multiple planes of reality and all around them things were . . . warped. if those 2 could do that, and it's clear the celestials are the more powerful entities seeing as how THEY were going to wipe out the watchers, it's not much of a leap to say the celestials possess similar abilities.
Hmm...things around them were warped while they were fighting. ok, that's definitely a reality warping feat. That definitely proves that they're at least in the....Proteus range. 😕
and its true it took 1000s of years to summon the power, but that would seem to me to be more an indication of the power of the one -- who incidentally was never in any other issues and so HAS no 'feats'. but again, it is pretty clear he is seen as the watchers' head honcho so i feel safe in assuming he is likely the most powerful of the watchers. i had this discussion a couple times recently -- not everything needs to be proven. some things can be logially discerned by context.
True. And in context we know:
Celestials are unable to alter reality on a universal or pocket universal scale - they have to burn off one planet at a time - a lengthy process
Watchers have altered reality in the immediate vicinity
So has Proteus
Which puts Watcher reality altering feats on par with Proteus
The One is the greatest of Watchers
Which puts his reality altering above Proteus level
We don't know how far above because he has no feats.
So we can conclude that The One is more powerful than Proteus. Not much else.
i'm not arguing that sw could or couldn't take them -- i never read disassembled or hom and so don't know her well enough to fairly comment. i'm just saying it seems logical to assume the celestials can indeed alter reality at least on some scale.
I don't have a problem with that, even if it's a sloppy conclusion to make. But there's a huge range of reality warping - Proteus, Jamie Braddock, Cube Beings, Jim Jaspers, etc. There's no real solid conclusion you can make just by *inferring* that Celestials *may* have reality warping powers.
btw -- an interesting aside -- it seems the celestials were gonna eradicate the watchers via the implementation of some sort of genetic code that once unleashed would erase them from existence. i mentioned this before, but perhaps as master geneticists (possibly responsible for seeding the earth with the possibility of mutations?) they might be able to . . . erase sw by the same means. she's powerful, but she's still human, even if she is a mutant.
Ah, now we're talking prep. 🙂
<<Hmm...things around them were warped while they were fighting. ok, that's definitely a reality warping feat. That definitely proves that they're at least in the....Proteus range.>>
now you're being ridiculous. does proteus battle across multiple planes of reality? seriously demi, the complarison is silly. you clearly don't think proteus is more powerful than a watcher. if you DO think proteus is more powerful or capable than a watcher, well . . . 🙄
and the beauty of context is you can infer from it and extrapolate.
watcher>>>>>>>proteus
celestial>watcher
how far above watchers? i don't know. but if you're above a watcher you are in heady company. the conclusion that the celestials can alter reality is hardly a sloppy conclusion (though the evidence itself in book form may not be the strongest), rather it's one that can be reached quite easily and follows logically from what we know and have seen.
anyway, i still don't kow if sw could wipe out a celestial. if she can copy powers like you say, perhaps she could -- but sue's attack didn't destroy the celestial in any event. it just pushed him off our plane for a little while. she'd need to do more.
<<Ah, now we're talking prep.>>
why prep? they've already experimented with humans in the past. the attack is just speculation, but i don't see why they couldn't easily affect her genetically (make her human, maybe?), or even take her out psionically before she can muster an attack. they did that to thor.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<Hmm...things around them were warped while they were fighting. ok, that's definitely a reality warping feat. That definitely proves that they're at least in the....Proteus range.>>now you're being ridiculous. does proteus battle across multiple planes of reality? seriously demi, the complarison is silly. you clearly don't think proteus is more powerful than a watcher. if you DO think proteus is more powerful or capable than a watcher, well . . . 🙄
Ah, but now you're talking overall power. I'm comparing reality warping feats, as were you when trying to prove that Celestials can warp reality, despite never showing it. So since we're sticking to that theme here, in terms of reality warping feats, Watcher = Proteus. Are you saying I'm wrong? Can you prove it?
and the beauty of context is you can infer from it and extrapolate.watcher>>>>>>>proteus
celestial>watcher
In overall power...but you were talking about reality warping, weren't you?
how far above watchers? i don't know. but if you're above a watcher you are in heady company.
Why? Based on what? Extrapolate.
the conclusion that the celestials can alter reality is hardly a sloppy conclusion (though the evidence itself in book form may not be the strongest), rather it's one that can be reached quite easily and follows logically from what we know and have seen.
How? We know that a Watcher warped his surroundings, which isn't the same as changing reality, and certainly not on a scale to suggest that he's on the level with SW, which is what this whole exercise is about in the first place. Being able to fight on multiple planes and dimensions isn't proof of reality warping. That's an entirely separate power. Reality warping is pretty specific - it's changing reality from one thing to something else. Wanda changed the past, the present, brought back the dead, retroactively killed other characters, creating LIFE out of thin air. Show me one bit of evidence that either Celestials OR Watchers have or can do such any of the above.
I can accept assuming that Celestials can do things Watchers can do if it's stated in the comics that they share powersets AND Watchers have shown it. But Watchers haven't shown it, and it wasn't stated that they share powersets. So there's nothing to extrapolate from there.
anyway, i still don't kow if sw could wipe out a celestial. if she can copy powers like you say, perhaps she could -- but sue's attack didn't destroy the celestial in any event. it just pushed him off our plane for a little while. she'd need to do more.
I guess it depends on what constitutes a defeat.
why prep? they've already experimented with humans in the past. the attack is just speculation, but i don't see why they couldn't easily affect her genetically (make her human, maybe?), or even take her out psionically before she can muster an attack. they did that to thor.
Assuming Wanda is even just a mutant anymore. She seems beyond having or needing a physical form since she's all over the place.
What the hell does it matter? Even if the Celestials can't alter reality, most reality warpers have yet match up to a Celestial, nor do they dare battle them.
The Rogue Watcher took over an entire galaxy and serperated it from the main universe. Heck that was right after the FF ran into Watcher's V. Celestials. Protues means what now? He, Cube Beings, and Watchers are still below a Celestial.
Cube Beings messing with reality and the universe:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=374152&perpage=20&highlight=Sharper+of+Worlds&pagenumber=2
After Beyonder lost and became Kosmos:
http://img492.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cels5lx.jpg
http://img250.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1cels3pw.jpg
Originally posted by kgkg
Ya but that doesn't mean you can't be effected by Timelines does it?just look at Pho.
Say Celestal go back in time and ...........................
Oh, so you're asking if she's vulnerable to going back in time and killing her? Well, time travel is always a tricky thing. By going back in time and killing her, you're actually just creating an alternate reality - I dunno, call it the Age of Not House of M (AONHM ), where Wanda never came into her powers. Is Wanda capable of going beyond that? Possibly, but she'd have to consciously make it happen. She wanted to keep the effects of the HoM to that core universe, so you'd be safe from her in that new timeline. Unless she wanted to get you.
The same principle worked in preventing the birth of the Phoenix in AOA. 😄
What the hell does it matter? Even if the Celestials can't alter reality, most reality warpers have yet match up to a Celestial, nor do they dare battle them.The Rogue Watcher took over an entire galaxy and serperated it from the main universe. Heck that was right after the FF ran into Watcher's V. Celestials. Protues means what now? He, Cube Beings, and Watchers are still below a Celestial.
Those scans show Beyonder being blasted by a "sub-particle resonance disruptor effect" - and seeing as though he comprised the universe they were in, it blinked out temporarily as a side effect of the damage he took. That's not evidence of universal-scale reality manipulation. Sorry.
Originally posted by demigawd
Those scans show Beyonder being blasted by a "sub-particle resonance disruptor effect" - and seeing as though he comprised the universe they were in, it blinked out temporarily as a side effect of the damage he took. That's not evidence of universal-scale reality manipulation. Sorry.
😆 He left to another universe where he could be free to reign supreme and became part of it. That's evidence of universal-scale reality manipulation. Kubik and Shaper of Worlds come to that reality to find Beyonder. 😛
Originally posted by Beyonder
😆 He left to another universe where he could be free to reign supreme and became part of it. That's evidence of universal-scale reality manipulation. Kubik and Shaper of Worlds come to that reality to find Beyonder. 😛
Nah, it was a pocket universe that Kubik held in his hand afterwards. It's evidence of the far less impressive Franklin-scale reality manipulation. *yawn*
Originally posted by demigawd
[B]Oh, so you're asking if she's vulnerable to going back in time and killing her? Well, time travel is always a tricky thing. By going back in time and killing her, you're actually just creating an alternate reality - I dunno, call it the Age of Not House of M (AONHM ), where Wanda never came into her powers. Is Wanda capable of going beyond that? Possibly, but she'd have to consciously make it happen. She wanted to keep the effects of the HoM to that core universe, so you'd be safe from her in that new timeline. Unless she wanted to get you.
Because the others are byproducts of one reality, and change one thing And different realities might not occur.
ya similar to the ALL MIGHTHY Phoenix
Originally posted by kgkg
Effecting one reality would change all the other Wandas(lol) would it not?Because the others are byproducts of one reality, and change one thing And different realities might not occur.
ya similar to the ALL MIGHTHY Phoenix
What?
Oh wait, I know what you're talking about. Well, Wanda isn't an omniversal being or anything, so there's nothing to stop you from killing alternate less powerful Wandas. But killing a Wanda in one reality doesn't do squat to 616 reality's Wanda. Remember, AOA was an alternate timeline - it didn't affect 616. That's why they currently exist and continue on independently. It would be the same thing here. You've killed Wanda before she was born, which would create an alternate reality where there's no all-powerful Wanda. But HoM and 616 Wanda would remain. See what I'm saying?
