Originally posted by King KAM
scarlet witch is a crock, to tell you the truth mutants are kinda a crock......but anywho.....i feel that the celestials win, scarlet with is OVERRATED!
Thank you for your valuable input.
Originally posted by Xplosive
Never. She is not beyond that. Far from that.
You too. Pleasure as always.
Originally posted by demigawd
She's NOT sane, but she doesn't have to be in order to beat Celestials. Sanity is a necessary component to exercise good judgment in things like...choosing who should remain a mutant and who shouldn't. It's not necessary to kick somebody's ass.
To effectively employ her reality warping powers to the level she'd need to defeat a Celestial let alone the entire race Wanda herself would need to have a firm grip on reality or she would get lost in her powers as she has done as stated by Dr Strange in Disassembled and that was the reason he was able to take her out. Her level of sanity effects her decision making and reactions etc and against the race of Celestials she would need to be on top form. Wanda as stated in a flashback in House of M 7 could not have created or caused House of M without the aid of her brother and Xavier. Therefore she is NOT.In her deranged state she is far more vulnerable to assault especially from vast reality manipulators. Against the race of Celestials she would fall apart.
Originally posted by demigawd
Equating skyfather reality warping to Wanda reality warping is about as effective as equating Galactus' eyeblasts with Cyclops. That is to say, NOT effective. Take a better angle, GS.
I never did that. You misread/misunderstood select whatevers applicable either way you got it wrong.
Originally posted by demigawd
I read it - it's your usual bunch of crap combined with scans that don't show anything. Face facts, GS, EVERY manifestation of Phoenix has shown vulnerability. Dark Phoenix was beaten by a laser, Phoenix I was beaten by Magneto, and later by a Magneto clone (who may very well be a creation of....ta daaa...WANDA), and later still had her "crown" disconnected and later still was in a terribly weakened state. Phoenix II was beaten by the Beyonder and unable to defeat Galactus. As a "force of creation" her role in combat is unseen and likely non-existent. As an avatar, her record is less-than-impressive. Wanda would simply "jgg" Jean and that would be the end of that. Wanda wins handily, regardless of your unsupported "tipareth" mumbo jumbo. 😆
Phoenix after the M'kraan crystal incident right up until her suicide in the DP Saga as stated on panel many times (and as ive posted in various threads over the last month) had self-imposed psychic circuit breakers placed around her power cutting it off to powerful mutant level. Jason Wyngardes manipulations gave her a hunger for power which resulted in the slow degradation of those breakers (and therefore a slow increase in power as ive also shown in threads recently). When Phoenix faced Magneto in hi sbase as stated on panel she was winning and pouring on the power until she reached that self imposed limit at which point he got the better of her. Prior to the battle on the moon Xavier had helped Jean erect her psychic circuit breakers again as is (or at least should be) common knowledge. The assault on Cyclops shattered some of those limitations and her power started to return. Jean as stated on panel killed herself prior to this happening.
As for the Magneto clone thing (Jggg lol) you've already stated on these forums that its obvious that it was a plot device and that when Whirly was trying to use the same argument against us that we (me and Cresh) should ignore him and that he was trolling and had nothing to fall back on. So why are you now doing the same? Desperate measures and all i guess.
Phoenix 2 as stated on panel was nowhere near he mothers level in power. She drew on the Phoenix Force in limited amounts to boost her own abilities. That was her full extent. Her getting defeated by Beyonder makes sense and is of no issue to myself. However when the Beyonder got an insight into Jeans perceptions via Rachel (as she gave him his loaned power back) he dropped to his knees and was humbled. Sensory overload. So yeah im happy with that.
As for Phoenix 2's battles against Galactus:
Whatever are you going on about?
Originally posted by demigawd
I know about the origins of Eternity, Galactus, etc. And I know it has nothing to do with Phoenix 😆. You're trying to cast the Phoenix Force as an aspect of God, making her essentially untouchable. That whole bizarre theory aside, Jean is NOT the Phoenix Force, Jean is an avatar - and she's shown limited power and even more limited knowledge of how to use it. Look at those same scans you like to shove in people's faces - she wasn't even the wisest avatar there. It took someone else to explain things to her. You'd think if she were an aspect of God, she'd be a bit wiser. You'd think if she were an aspect of God, she wouldn't have to listen to a "they" all the time.
Ive already posted conclusive evidence showing that Phoenix is responsible for the creation of both Eternity and Galactus so i dont need to go to the effort again. Most here are satisfied with that point at least. Good try.
As for the God connection. Ive posted a bit about that on this thread. Read at your leisure:
Jean Grey is the human face of Phoenix/the Crown Consciousness. The essence of the supreme being given human form. Your ideas your views on what such a being should or shouldnt be like are not law. Theyre just your personal views. Either way the connection is established like it or lump it. By all accounts Jesus wasnt omniscient and he was very much vulnerable and had doubts and sought advice. I guess that means he wasnt an aspect of God either?
Originally posted by demigawd
Fact - Jean is NOT the Phoenix Force. "They" are.Fact - Jean gets her power and her orders from "They".
Fact - by extension, those powers are limited to something less than "they"
Fact - those powers have not been enough to put her solidly over Galactus, or even the Beyonder
Fact - Jean is NOT all powerful, even if the Phoenix Force is.
Fact - Wanda kicks the crap out of Jean any day of the week and Jean will use the excuse that "they" won't let her win. 😆
Jean is the human face of the Force. Just a human shell which the power manifests into creation as. Thats stated in New X-men 128 and shown in New X-men 152. Your opinions on the matter in face of comic book statements and on panel evidence are irrelevant.
The likes of Classic X-men, New X-men and Endsong conclusively showed that Jean and Phoenix are one, that Jean is and always was Phoenix in human form. Phoenix is a level of consciousness that manifests through the minds of sentient being so in human form the power would manifest in the same way. That is why Jean is the White Phoenix of Crown as opposed to the other avatars. The issue is talked about in-depth in this very long thread. Read it or dont its up to you:
Originally posted by demigawd
Are you kidding me, GS? Clint's an expert marksman - that was a deathblow. You can tell because Wanda is spewing blood....that means it punctured her lungs. He was TRYING to kill her. In fact, read the quote, "I was hoping if I couldn't kill you for all the $&%* you've done I thought at least I'd maybe snap you out of your crazy". And this was AFTER declaring in the previous issue that he was going to kill her. He was TRYING to kill her and figured that if it didn't work (her being a god and all) that it would at least snap her out of it. Neither worked...when he shot her, she was OUT. DEAD. Then she just got up like everything was cool. Look at her speech pattern. It's not the usual "Clint....Barton....why?" speech pattern that dying people have. She was absolutely fine...just undid everything. She's clearly beyond physical death.
Not at all Demi. Having an arrow partially pierce your lungs will not kill you instantly. For all we know she negated the effects of the arrow on her body which she could do because she wasnt killed instantly. That is still NOT CONCLUSIVE proof that she is beyond physical death. When you have some then you can make such claims but until then we can assume that she can very well be killed.
Originally posted by demigawd
And yet Sue Storm completely destroyed one with her own meager energies, Thor blasted a hole in one, and Jean destroyed the hand of one. Physical damage.Like I said before - Wanda just needs to blast them with hyperspatial energies and they're all done. Simple task. But I acknowledge that it'll be harder to beat them than it would be for her to beat, say, Wolverine. Or Phoenix. 😆
Yes very funny. Sue could hurt them because she applied the same energies which the Celestials power stems from.
With Thor as shown the Celestial wanted Thor to enter its body
With Jean she used the last remaining part of the Phoenix within in her to destroy its hand (pre-retcon please note) so of course it was going to happen.
Originally posted by demigawd
that doesn't make any sense. Roma said it could reach the Ascension itself. There's no two ways to interpret that - that means the White Hot Room itself is threatened. The White Hot room was stated to be beyond the universe....not beyond creation. Nothing except TOAA is beyond creation. You're stretching A LOT to say otherwise just to save your precious White Hot Home.
Whatever. Im not going to argue this point anymore because its irrelevant anyway. Meggan stopped the chaos wave which explains why none of the higher powers got involved. There services would have been overkill.
Originally posted by demigawd
Meggan never stopped the Chaos Wave - she sealed the breach. Big difference. Also, the Phoenix Force MAY be God's power, but the White Hot Rooom is part of creation. You have no evidence whatsoever to support a position to the contrary. Therefore, Roma's statement that the Chaos Wave could reach the Ascension is accurate. You can't spin it any other way, no matter how much you'd like to. "Reaching to Ascension" is reaching the very throne of god....it means the Chaos Wave theatens EVERYTHING.
As aforementioned irrelevant because
a) Meggan did indeed stop the Chaos Wave singlehandedly
b) Chaos Wave isnt conclusively generated by Wanda
Meggan stopping the Chaos Wave:
Shhhhh!!!
Originally posted by demigawd
I kid you not...read up on Avengers. Lord Templar and Pagan are both chaos beings and Wanda's powers were compatible with theirs, which is why she also got strange effects whenever battling them. They are both said to generate chaos energy. This was before it was considered "magical". In fact, it was referred to as Chaos Energy in Galactus: The Devourer and in Avengers #59.Not all reality warpers are the same, just like not all energy projectors are the same. Wanda's powers work by generating chaos energy (which, as Dr. Strange said, is not magical). This chaos energy, when unchecked, causes random effects (as we've seen in within Roma's citadel where there are multiple versions of characters changing throughout the multiverse). Wanda learned how to harness that power so that SHE dictated the changes made by the chaos energy. In the process, she unmakes reality reality via the chaos wave, then re-makes it in her own image.
Nice speculated explanation of the nature of Wandas powers but thats all it is. After Dissassembled Chaos magic was retconned out of Marvel. Therefore Wandas connection to chaos magic was dismissed. On top of that its stated in that same issue that instead she is a reality warper. Theres no getting around that. Chaos magic does not exist, Wanda is a reality warper, the Chaos wave isnt conclusively generated by Wanda, chaos wave is just a reference to the fact that it causes a collapse of reality and the concept of order. Romas description detailed its effects and nowhere was it stated or even made out that Wanda generated the wave. It was however inferred that the wave was triggered off by Wandas tampering with reality. Either way until you can prove conclusively (or at least give better support to your opinion) that Wanda generated the chaos wave then you just cant make such claims.
Originally posted by demigawd
So yes, Wanda very much created the Chaos Wave, being that Chaos Energy is the source of her power
Nuh-uh im sorry to say. WAS the source of her power prior to chaos magic being retconned and then Wanda being deemed a reality warper.
Originally posted by demigawd
Who said anything about dimensional portals? You can traverse dimensions without leaving the universe. Those doorways in Man-Thing and Exiles are doorways to REALITIES, not dimensions. And they're left open and they're just fine. The "don't leave the doors open" concept is unique to the M'Kraan Crystal, nothing else, otherwise reality would always be threatened by open doorways...and that's simply not the case. Post up that AOA Gambit scan again - read what it says - it's specifically the M'Kraan Crystal's doorways that cause the blinking out of reality.
Im not gonna argue on this point any longer. It really doesnt matter anymore. You have no proof that Wanda generates the chaos waves and we know that a vast assortment of beings can halt their progress if Meggan can. So whatever you say mate.
Originally posted by demigawd
Meggan didn't stop the wave - she sealed the breach. Wanda's chaos energy was fine and dandy. The abstracts didn't get involved because they don't care about a single universe -
Incorrect on both accounts. Ive proved above that you were just presenting your opinion as fact. Nothing short of garbage. Meggan stopped the chaos wave. A handful of Excalibur sealed the breach. Universe saved big deal.
As for the abstracts thing how do you account for the IG saga or Marvel: The End? You appear somewhat confused my friend. Its the likes of LT and Phoenix who dont care for the fate of a single universe. The abstracts as universal beings would very much give a damn.
Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda only INTENDED for her effects to reach throughout the universe. That doesn't mean that lacks the ability to go beyond that, as tearing a hole in the multiverse proves.
She did only intend for that however you have no evidence whatsoever to prove that she has multiversal power. You have no proof she generated the chaos wave. Thats not stated or depicted. What is stated is that a trans temporal tsunami has occurred as a result of an alteration to 616. Wandas tamperings ripped a hole in the walls of reality. That does not prove she has multiversal level power. Could she open a door into another reality and apply her power there? Yeah im sure she could but thats not multiversal, not if she cant do it simulatneously. You dont know for a fact that she could warp reality over more than one universe simultaneously.
Originally posted by demigawd
Wanda is STILL beyond them, and any suggestion to the contrary is pure speculation on your part
Agreed. Just like its speculation your part that she cant be killed physically or that she generated the chaos wave herself.
Originally posted by demigawd
Like I said before, it's totally invalid to compare skyfather reality warping powers (which are extremely limited) to Wanda's,
I never did that for the last time. I merely said that beings from that level up tend to have reality warping powers and you yourself stated that they said they were best qualified to tutor Franklin in the use of his reality warping talents so what does that suggest to you. Either way if you want to discount that point i can discount Wandas immortality and generation of the chaos wave. Look what you're left with. Certainly not someone who could beat the entire race of Celestials let alone Phoenix.
Originally posted by demigawd
And, like I said - there's NOTHING to suggest that Franklin is supposed to be even more powerful than his pocket universe feat. Nada.
I really dont care anymore i dont require that point to support my case. Yours however minus all speculation is looking very shaky indeed.
Originally posted by demigawd
Using his power taxes Magneto's body - of course when he's an old man he can't process those energies the same way, just like Quicksilver will become slower when he's 80 than he is now. Reality warping is an entirely mental exercise - it's subject entirely to control and has nothing to do with physical maturity. C'mon GS, you know better. Xavier isn't more powerful now than when he first got his powers - his control is better.
Generating reality warping powers and the act of applying them still takes it toll physically. Being in your prime means you can apply such powers at higher levels than you could as a child and for longer so yes most people would consider that to be more powerful. Are you trying to suggest that using reality warping powers takes no physical toll on the body whatsoever?
Originally posted by demigawd
Their powers are physical. Namor didn't gain additional abilities.
Yes he did, just ask DarkCrawler.
Originally posted by demigawd
No it hasn't - her ability to use it grew. The power itself was the same.
More opinion dressed as fact as i will no show:
Dont grow do they? SHHHHH!!!
Originally posted by demigawd
You have no evidence that they were capable of doing what Franklin did. If they were capable, they would have had to go through that big long, multi-issue mess. They would have blinked away the pocket universe and been done with it. The fact is, they COULDN'T blink it away...they didn't have the power. And until you show they do...they don't
Cool. As previously mentioned not worth arguing over because the point is not required. Prove Wanda is beyond physical death, prove she herself generated the chaos wave and then i'll get back to you. Listen i dont want more insufficiently supported opinion trying to persuade me to acknowledge this BS. Come up with the goods Demi or bow out the thread. 😱
Originally posted by demigawd
reality warping doesn't really require much of the physical body. It's NOT the same thing as magnetism, or super strength, or optic blasts. It's a finesse ability, not a brute force ability. You never see reality warpers straining to do something....either they can warp something or they can't. So Franklin's age has nothing to do with his level of power, just how much he can consciously do. There's nothing to suggest that Franklin is capable of doing anything greater than creating a pocket universe. Nobody said he could, nothing has shown he could. Nobody has said his potential is higher than that, nobody said he'll become even more powerful as he gets older. You have nothing to go on.
So youre trying to say that reality warping power doesnt tax the person physically? Is that really what youre trying to tell me? Absurd 😂
Originally posted by demigawd
And just because the Celestials feel they're best equipped to train Franklin doesn't mean they have the same powers. I'm bigger and stronger than my sifu in Kung Fu class, but he's wiser and understands the concepts and principles of fighting better - so he's well equipped to train me, even though I'm actually more powerful than he is. It's the same thing here. Franklin may well be greater than all the Celestials, but their training is top notch and necessary to help Franklin learn to use his powers in a conscious way.
So you do think that theyre likely to have reality warping powers then. Well you're analogy certainly suggests that as does the fact that as aforementioned most beings skyfather and above have reality warping powers. And for the last time me saying that does not mean im equating skyfather father abilities to Wanda. How you interpreted that in the first place is beyond me. LOL.
Originally posted by demigawd
Actually, I'm afraid none of the points were dealt with. 🙁So my points stand:
1)Franklin has accomplished a feat that the Celestials couldn't duplicate without working together and rendering one of their own comatose, and couldn't undo it without destroying (using lame tactics like boiling the seas) one planet after another.
2)That feat still doesn't match Wanda
3) There's no evidence that Franklin's power would grow, as opposed to his control.
Wanda still wins. Handily. But A for effort! 💃
Please acknowledge that Asema was depowered by the Dreaming Celestial and for all we know just destroying Franklins universe would have had a negative affect on the 616 reality. So they could have been using careful measures. Either way its a race of vastly powerful beings, you have no sufficent proof that Wanda is beyond physical death, Wanda is insane and required aid to perform the house of m feat, so with all that in mind i really cant see the poor dear lasting a round. 🙁
It was a wasted effort mate and for that im really sorry. 🙁
Really. 😱 😂
Originally posted by demigawd
Jean Grey Phoenix does NOT equal Phoenix Force. Otherwise, if she were all powerful, would "jgg" have happened? Would she have needed to "let herself die" *cough*bullshit*cough* in order to bring herself back in the future? She's NOT all powerful, and if you acknowledge that the PF is all power, then you have to acknowledge that Jean isn't the Phoenix Force.
She didnt have to die to appear in the future . Where did you get that from? Her existence in 616 wasnt necessary for her to carry out her Phoenix work so she allowed herself to die. When her work was needed she manifested back into creation via a Phoenix egg.
Originally posted by demigawd
Ah, so Jean was created by not PF, eh? GS might take issue with that.Wanda beats Jean Grey the psionic
Wanda beats Jean Grey as a Phoenix Avatar ("jgg!"😉
Wanda beats Jean Grey as Dark Phoenix ("laser!"😉
Wanda goes back in time and kills Xavier a la AOA (Jean Grey never becomes Phoenix)
Wanda stops the Big Bang from happening - no manifestation of the PF
Wanda destroys the White Hot Room - no more Phoenix ForceTell me, is there any of the million or so versions of GS's Phoenix bullshit that I've left out? Wanda is eager to destroy! 😆
Lame reasoning and all of those encounters have been explained previously, especially the Jgg one which you discounted yourself.
Jean Grey is the human face of Phoenix. How Phoenix manifests into creation in person to carry out micro0surgery from within reality. All of that was revealed in New X-men and confirmed in Endsong. They are indeed one.
Jean actually did become Phoenix in AOA. If you'd rea the One Shot you'd know that. Shhh!! 😱
Originally posted by demigawd
She didn't defeat Galactus...he ran out of energy and said it was because she draws on potential energy - life, which is a bigger store than his. That's all. If she were all powerful, she'd blink Galactus away, or turn him in Galan for fun, then turn him back as a stern lesson. It wasn't decisive like that. Holding the universe in her hand isn't much of a combat feat, is it? It's just fun to look at. And seeing every cosmic kneeling before her was a dramatization of what the Stranger was AFRAID could happen....it didn't happen.What else you got?
Would she beat LT? Probably not. And neither could Phoenix.
Phoenix wasnt there to fight Galactus and wasnt there to kill Galactus. She asked him to stop destroying the planet and then destroyed his machinery. The resultant explosion hurt Galactus and flung him miles. She apologised and then he attacked her. While his attacks did nothing hers had him on the ropes and then he gave up after he had run out of energy. If Phoenix was out to kill him then she would have done so. Youre an intelligent lad so why the superficial analysis? 😮
Originally posted by demigawd
That NEVER happened. NOBODY kneeled before her. That was a visualization describing what Stranger was afraid could happen. That doesn't count as a feat in the slightest! C'mon now!
Incorrect Demi. Once again. It was a visualization. One that was supported by Eternity who confirmed that the power of Phoenix does indeed bring about the replacement of Lt and the abstracts every creation cycle. The Stranger however wanted to do it on his own timetable and use the power to help him survive that process Phoenix brings about naturally. Therefore leaving himself the supreme being of reality hence the pic of LT and the abstracts bowing before a Phoenix enhanced Stranger.
We clear on that now? 😕
Originally posted by demigawd
Marvel didn't show any such thing. It was the Stranger's theory that it could happen. Nothing more.
As previously mentioned incorrect. The replacement was a process that occurs naturally, a process brought about by Phoenix. Stranger wanted to speed up the process and use the power to survive it.
Originally posted by demigawd
Wrong. He's afraid of the potential of humankind - he's afraid of a RACE of Phoenices.
There is one Phoenix Force and many avatars. He feared being replaced in the creation cycle which Phoenix controls and so hoped to access the power via Jean to help himself. Jean is Phoenixes human face she has a special relationship with the power that makes her the White Crown Phoenix. The closest thing Phoenix has to a human form.
Originally posted by demigawd
it's the nature of the business. But it wasn't sudden. She was always hinted at having the potential back when she created her children. During Busiek's run, she became second only to Thor in power....and growing. Her alternation of 616 and her Chaos Wave that destroyed several UNIVERSES show the level of power she has reached. She threatens all of creation....including the Ascension (seat of God).Don't shoot the messenger...I'm just telling it like it is. 🙂
Far from it Demi. She altered 616 and triggered a chaos wave. Nowhere does it state she generated it only states it was the result of the alteration of 616. When you have some proof you can use the chaos wave as a feat. No the chaos wave didnt destroy universes. Where did you get that from? It reached Otherworld mate but thats it. You think differently then come up wit the goods. Either way its irrelevant the chaos wave was topped by Meggan so truthfully the ascension was never in any danger.
Originally posted by illadelph12
This fight is a catch 22.I'm actually leaning towards Scarlet Witch.
She's not just a reality warper, she can consciously control causality and it's off shoot concepts; probability and possibility. She could cause all of the Cellestials' powers to overload causing spontaneous combustion of their skulls by them simply being in her presence, or nullify their abilities altogether and have them all suffer from a mass bout of amnesia and forget what they were doing and what their powers were.
As powerful as Cellestials are, they're not above the concept of causality.
Numbers are on the Cellestial's side, but SW has an enormous ace up her sleave. She's a walking retcon.
She can indeed do all those things however she is not exempt from a physical death until thats been stated/ shown conclusively on panel and she is also insane which would affect her decision making abilities and reactions in battle. To top it off to pull off a feat as high level as house of M she required mental support and direction from Xavier and Pietro. Against a Celestial she'll probably win against their entire race NO WAY!! 😛
Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, so you're asking if she's vulnerable to going back in time and killing her? Well, time travel is always a tricky thing. By going back in time and killing her, you're actually just creating an alternate reality - I dunno, call it the Age of Not House of M (AONHM ), where Wanda never came into her powers. Is Wanda capable of going beyond that? Possibly, but she'd have to consciously make it happen. She wanted to keep the effects of the HoM to that core universe, so you'd be safe from her in that new timeline. Unless she wanted to get you.The same principle worked in preventing the birth of the Phoenix in AOA. 😄
Not so sure about that timeline thing. That wasnt the case in Young Avengers. By travelling to the past and making alterations 616 present was altered. AOA's a strange case i dunno to be honest but either way no proof that she is beyond physical death so what does it matter.
Phoenix existed in AOA so what are you going on about?
<<in terms of reality warping feats, Watcher = Proteus. Are you saying I'm wrong?>>
in terms of reality warping feats as shown in book, you are correct. at the saem time proteus could not alter reality in anyway that would bother a watcher. at the least (until i find some visual evidence of a watcher altering reality) a watcher and other cosmics have some undefined ability to negate/be unaffected by reality altering powers.
it seems logical to assume the celestials have:
(A) some form of reality power (undefined/unknown extent)
(B) a form of protection against reality altering power (which is again undefined but clearly well above cube beings or a cube could wipe out a celestial easily)
you'll say sw is above cubes and maybe she is. but is she so far above that she could overcome whatever defense the celestials have against it? any answer, yes or no is speculatory. remember i'm only playing devil's advocate and trying to show that celestials MAY be able to withstand her reality attacks.
<<Assuming Wanda is even just a mutant anymore. She seems beyond having or needing a physical form since she's all over the place.>>
seems more logical than assuming she isn't. but i STILL don't know why they couldn't just psionically wupe her mind to make her forget her powers BEFORE she even has a chance to use them . . ..
*sigh*
As tempting as it is to finally end this Phoenix nonsense once and for all by battling to the very end, I don't have the time or the patience to wade through your filibustering tactics. Some of us have jobs, haha.
So let's cut through the details and look at the bigger picture of our disagreements.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Her level of sanity effects her decision making and reactions etc and against the race of Celestials she would need to be on top form. Wanda as stated in a flashback in House of M 7 could not have created or caused House of M without the aid of her brother and Xavier. Therefore she is NOT.In her deranged state she is far more vulnerable to assault especially from vast reality manipulators. Against the race of Celestials she would fall apart.
The assumption is that when fighting them she IS in top form. Her instability is the result of being confused about where she is, what she wants, and where to go. She was quite calm and happy in HoM 8. Made irrational decisions, yes. But there's a difference between being confused about what decisions to make with your power and the very singular goal of "destroy those celestials".
The support of Quicksilver helped encourage and stabilize her because of lack of confidence - not lack of power. That doesn't apply here.
Phoenix after the M'kraan crystal incident right up until her suicide in the DP Saga as stated on panel many times (and as ive posted in various threads over the last month) had self-imposed psychic circuit breakers placed around her power blah blah blah
Yes yes, I know. The point is that as a human host, there are limits to her power that MUST be taken into consideration. While she has full access to the omnipotence of the Phoenix Force, she doesn't appear to have access to any of the omniscence of it....both components are vital against the likes of Eternity, LT, Chaos and Order, any of the DC gods, etc. You're not taking that into consideration. You never take that into consideration, and that's what I take issue with.
My point is that in the case with Phoenix I AND Phoenix II, her undoing has always come from her humanity. She's not as powerful as you portray her to be for that very reason. And everything I referenced that you tried to debunk is evidence of that. You can cite circuit breakers and holding back and psychic blocks and corruption and granting limited powers all you want....it all bolsters my point - she's a human and will always be limited because of it.
As for the Magneto clone thing (Jggg lol) you've already stated on these forums that its obvious that it was a plot device and that when Whirly was trying to use the same argument against us that we (me and Cresh) should ignore him and that he was trolling and had nothing to fall back on. So why are you now doing the same? Desperate measures and all i guess.
I accused Whirly of trolling, not of that being a plot device. The feat is valid and real. You can't pick and choose what to disregard, especially if it's WITHIN THE SAME STORY. 😆
As for Phoenix 2's battles against Galactus:
Whatever are you going on about?
She was confident she could beat him eventually, but the amount of damage would be huge. Do you think, say, Eternity would have that kind of trouble? That puts Phoenix squarely between Thor and Dr. Strange in power! 😱
Ive already posted conclusive evidence showing that Phoenix is responsible for the creation of both Eternity and Galactus so i dont need to go to the effort again. Most here are satisfied with that point at least. Good try.
No...the Phoenix Force sparked the creation of the manifestations of those entities in any given universe. That's not to say that Jean Grey popped up and made them, then went on to have a planetary stroke by Magneto. You attempt to strike a delicate balance by IMPLYING that because the Phoenix Force kicks off the creation of all the abstracts in a given universe that Jean Grey can somehow hope to defeat them all in combat. She cannot.
Jean Grey is the human face of Phoenix/the Crown Consciousness. The essence of the supreme being given human form. Your ideas your views on what such a being should or shouldnt be like are not law. They're just your personal views.
Does anyone else find the humor in GS saying this?
Either way the connection is established like it or lump it. By all accounts Jesus wasnt omniscient and he was very much vulnerable and had doubts and sought advice. I guess that means he wasnt an aspect of God either?
An excellent point, actually. An aspect of God, yes. But he got taken down by a spear, nails and some wood.
Likewise, the Phoenix Force may be an aspect of God, but that doesn't mean that Jean Grey could defeat, say, Lucifer just because of it. Her human frailties and judgment prevent her from making the decisions necessary to defeat someone who has both the power of creation AND the wisdom to use it.
Jean is the human face of the Force. Just a human shell which the power manifests into creation as. Thats stated in New X-men 128 and shown in New X-men 152. Your opinions on the matter in face of comic book statements and on panel evidence are irrelevant.
Also a funny statement from you considering that neither of these really support anything you're saying at all. I turned your own scans against you....you think the Jean Grey who let her emotions get in the way of making a truly godly decision is a match for abstract concepts that exist beyond emotion? Do you think Jean Grey could have stood up to the assault Thanos took from the Abstracts? Her mind would break in two. SCOTT SUMMERS fuks her head up, and you're telling me she's beyond the control of LOVE AND HATE?
If you tell me "yes", our busness here is concluded because you're beyond hope.
The likes of Classic X-men, New X-men and Endsong conclusively showed that Jean and Phoenix are one, that Jean is and always was Phoenix in human form. Phoenix is a level of consciousness that manifests through the minds of sentient being so in human form the power would manifest in the same way. That is why Jean is the White Phoenix of Crown as opposed to the other avatars. The issue is talked about in-depth in this very long thread. Read it or dont its up to you:
You're saying the same thing and not getting the point....or maybe you just don't want to get the point. Jean is one with the power....but she is NOT one with the Phoenix Force. If she were, she wouldn't be confused about what's happening, and what should she be doing, and she certainly wouldn't be told by another avatar what "they" want her to do. To be at the level of power YOU want her to be, she'd have to be one with Phoenix consciousness....she isn't, and frankly, I don't think she's even capable.
For all your scans, all your essays, you have yet to realize that singular truth.
