Scarlet Witch vs the Celestials?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not at all Demi. Having an arrow partially pierce your lungs will not kill you instantly. For all we know she negated the effects of the arrow on her body which she could do because she wasnt killed instantly. That is still NOT CONCLUSIVE proof that she is beyond physical death. When you have some then you can make such claims but until then we can assume that she can very well be killed.

Hm, let's see:

Hawkeye is an expert marksman
Hawkeye says in HoM 6, "I'm going to kill her"
Hawkeye shoots her THROUGH THE HEART with an arrow
Wanda is completely still in a pool of blood
Wanda asks without a hint of pain in her voice, "Why did you do that?"
Wanda pops back up, the arrow goes away and she's in a totally different position one panel later
Hawkeyes SAYS he was trying to kill her, or at least get her to come to her senses - hence the deathblow

I don't know how much more proof you need. You remind me of Dave Chappelle at the R. Kelly trial

"He needs to be singing while peeing on the girl, while holding up his ID, with his mother standing there and a police officer present to positively identify him. Otherwise...that ain't him!"

Yes very funny. Sue could hurt them because she applied the same energies which the Celestials power stems from.

Wanda summoned DORMAMMU and used his power. You don't think she can summon hyperspatial energy?

Fight over. Discussion over, really.

a) Meggan did indeed stop the Chaos Wave singlehandedly

No, she sealed the breach. See that crack in the background? That's the breach. She stemmed the tide of the chaos wave long enough to seal the breach...but as we know, she was vulnerable to Wanda's Chaos power

b) Chaos Wave isnt conclusively generated by Wanda

"He needs to be singing while peeing on the girl, while holding up his ID, with his mother standing there and a police officer present to positively identify him. Otherwise...that ain't him!"

Nice speculated explanation of the nature of Wandas powers but thats all it is. After Dissassembled Chaos magic was retconned out of Marvel.

Chaos MAGIC was dismissed by Strange as not existing...but the fact that chaos energy was magical in nature was always speculation anyway. What IS real is chaos energy, as Templar and Pagan proved. The belief was that Wanda's chaos power was magical in nature. Strange dismissed it...it's causal in nature. But that doesn't mean that there's no chaos energy, just that it's not magical. You're reading too much into that line. So the point still stands...Wanda created the CHAOS wave with CHAOS energy that she's always had at her command since the time she created HEXES that caused....CHAOS.

anymore. You have no proof that Wanda generates the chaos waves and we know that a vast assortment of beings can halt their progress if Meggan can. So whatever you say mate.

A vast assortment of beings can seal the breach she accidentally opened. Bully for them! See what happens if she decides to PURPOSELY rip the whole thing open.

i am wayne brady b*tch

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Incorrect on both accounts. Ive proved above that you were just presenting your opinion as fact. Nothing short of garbage.

Again with the irony!

As for the abstracts thing how do you account for the IG saga or Marvel: The End? You appear somewhat confused my friend. Its the likes of LT and Phoenix who dont care for the fate of a single universe. The abstracts as universal beings would very much give a damn.

So are you telling me that Wanda's power poses no treat to the universe? Are you saying Roma was exaggerating? Is that what you're saying? Because if you're not saying it...then what ARE you saying? Abstracts get involved sometimes, but Roma is the OMNIVERSAL guardian for a reason...she guards the omniverse. If she's worried about Wanda, it's because the omniverse is threatened. It couldn't possibly be more straightforward than that.

Where was Phoenix when Thanos had the HOTU? He's less of a threat than cosmic bacteria?

That does not prove she has multiversal level power. Could she open a door into another reality and apply her power there? Yeah im sure she could but thats not multiversal, not if she cant do it simulatneously. You dont know for a fact that she could warp reality over more than one universe simultaneously.

You mean the images of an alternate reality Rogue changing and intersecting with other alternate reality Rogues isn't evidence of multiversal effects? Pah!

Agreed. Just like its speculation your part that she cant be killed physically or that she generated the chaos wave herself.

Dealt with previously.

"Hawkeye. Why did you do that?" > "Jgg!"

I merely said that beings from that level up tend to have reality warping powers

Area at worst. Planetary at best. Nothing special.

and you yourself stated that they said they were best qualified to tutor Franklin in the use of his reality warping talents so what does that suggest to you.

That they understand the nature of the universe well enough to teach him how to apply his powers. You don't have to have the same abilities as someone to teach how they to use their powers well. Last I checked, Xavier didn't have wings, couldn't fire optic blasts, didn't create ice and isn't super agile. But he was best qualified to show them how to use their powers correctly and responsibly.

Generating reality warping powers and the act of applying them still takes it toll physically. Being in your prime means you can apply such powers at higher levels than you could as a child and for longer so yes most people would consider that to be more powerful. Are you trying to suggest that using reality warping powers takes no physical toll on the body whatsoever?

Correct. It's a mentally based power. The point is moot anyway - there are no quotes or anything to show that he is capable of greater feats. And more importantly....nothing to show that the Celestials are capable of doing the same thing. They STRUGGLED to undo it! If they were remotely capable of even pocket universal power, they wouldn't have to resort to such lame tactics as throwing planets to fight Thanos.

More opinion dressed as fact as i will no show:

Dont grow do they? SHHHHH!!!

She was touched by the Phoenix. We know this already. So...what?

Hmm...

Demi's formed a very sound and compelling argument.

Part of the reason I back Scarlet Witch over the Cellestials in this thread (and over Phoenix in the other thread) is because for all their powers and feats, neither are above choice or probability, which Scarlet Witch controls.

People are confused by thinking Wanda is simply a reality warper. It's not so much the results as much as how she meets those ends. You really need to grasp the concept that she consciously controls causality, which is so far, fundamentally, beyond mere reality warping, it's not even funny.

She literally controls possibility and probabilty.

If it's possible, she can make it so, and literally, anything is possible.

Impossible is simply an excuse for human failings. A false precept we buy into that limits our perception, and influence, upon our reality.

But anyway, not to get too philosophical:

Unless you are beyond these concepts, Wanda has you by the nuts.

And considering that all sentient beings in creation are not above choice, Wanda has an ace up her sleave in combat.

Unless you're God/TOAA itself, LT (who is bound by purpose and not of free will) or the abstract being Anamoly, your fu*ked fighting Wanda, regardless of your "purpose".

So long as you have free will and exist, you're a variable in a possibility.

Her abilities are a literary loophole.

She can be written to do literally anything save being the Creator, and it would be well within the realms of her abilities.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Hmm...

Demi's formed a very sound and compelling argument.

Part of the reason I back Scarlet Witch over the Cellestials in this thread (and over Phoenix in the other thread) is because for all their powers and feats, neither are above choice or probability, which Scarlet Witch controls.

People are confused by thinking Wanda is simply a reality warper. It's not so much the results as much as how she meets those ends. You really need to grasp the concept that she consciously controls causality, which is so far, fundamentally, beyond mere reality warping, it's not even funny.

She literally controls possibility and probabilty.

If it's possible, she can make it so, and literally, [B]anything is possible.

Impossible is simply an excuse for human failings. A false precept we buy into that limits our perception, and influence, upon our reality.

But anyway, not to get too philosophical:

Unless you are beyond these concepts, Wanda has you by the nuts.

And considering that all sentient beings in creation are not above choice, Wanda has an ace up her sleave in combat.

Unless you're God/TOAA itself, LT (who is bound by purpose and not of free will) or the abstract being Anamoly, your fu*ked fighting Wanda, regardless of your "purpose".

So long as you have free will and exist, you're a variable in a possibility.

Her abilities are a literary loophole.

She can be written to do literally anything save being the Creator, and it would be well within the realms of her abilities. [/B]

😖mart:

Most of your other posts are just rehashes of the same stuff, but some miscellaneous points:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
She didnt have to die to appear in the future . Where did you get that from? Her existence in 616 wasnt necessary for her to carry out her Phoenix work so she allowed herself to die. When her work was needed she manifested back into creation via a Phoenix egg.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Lame reasoning and all of those encounters have been explained previously, especially the Jgg one which you discounted yourself.

Jean Grey is the human face of Phoenix. How Phoenix manifests into creation in person to carry out micro0surgery from within reality. All of that was revealed in New X-men and confirmed in Endsong. They are indeed one.

Jean actually did become Phoenix in AOA. If you'd rea the One Shot you'd know that. Shhh!! 😱

Because Sinister MADE it happen. And because the timeline for already fixed. Remember Jafph's (I can NEVER spell his name right) words - unless the timeline is fixed, Phoenix can never repair the Crystal. The recurring theme here is that Phoenix always needs a catalyst. If you want to beat Phoenix, prevent that catalyst.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix wasnt there to fight Galactus and wasnt there to kill Galactus. She asked him to stop destroying the planet and then destroyed his machinery. The resultant explosion hurt Galactus and flung him miles. She apologised and then he attacked her. While his attacks did nothing hers had him on the ropes and then he gave up after he had run out of energy. If Phoenix was out to kill him then she would have done so. Youre an intelligent lad so why the superficial analysis? 😮

Wow...that's quite a twist on facts. She won ONLY because he exausted his energy supplies, as he proceeded to explain to her, which of course freaked her out and caused her to flee. It was basically a stalemate until that point.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Incorrect Demi. Once again. It was a visualization. One that was supported by Eternity who confirmed that the power of Phoenix does indeed bring about the replacement of Lt and the abstracts every creation cycle. The Stranger however wanted to do it on his own timetable and use the power to help him survive that process Phoenix brings about naturally. Therefore leaving himself the supreme being of reality hence the pic of LT and the abstracts bowing before a Phoenix enhanced Stranger.

We clear on that now? 😕

No shit! The only problem with your post is that it doesn't in any way, shape or form address my point - that the kneeling was visualization only, and nothing that actually happened.

Celestials wins, dude they will gang rape her.

Almost done!

Originally posted by leonidas
<<in terms of reality warping feats, Watcher = Proteus. Are you saying I'm wrong?>>

in terms of reality warping feats as shown in book, you are correct. at the saem time proteus could not alter reality in anyway that would bother a watcher. at the least (until i find some visual evidence of a watcher altering reality) a watcher and other cosmics have some undefined ability to negate/be unaffected by reality altering powers.

If it's undefined, and they've never shown the ability to resist reality-altering powers....how do you know they have that ability?

it seems logical to assume the celestials have:

(A) some form of reality power (undefined/unknown extent)

Just so that I'm clear - you're basing this ONLY off of the fact that Cube Beings, who are only planetary scale reality warpers, say that Celestials are more powerful, right?

(B) a form of protection against reality altering power (which is again undefined but clearly well above cube beings or a cube could wipe out a celestial easily)

Given the Cube beings fights, it doesn't appear that they even apply reality warping technique to each other. The only named attack is some kind of sub-particle disruptor something or other. It could be that they are unable to apply reality warping directly to beings. Are there any instances of them successfully deleting ANYBODY from reality? Or any direct reality manipulation feats that directly affect a living being?

you'll say sw is above cubes and maybe she is. but is she so far above that she could overcome whatever defense the celestials have against it? any answer, yes or no is speculatory. remember i'm only playing devil's advocate and trying to show that celestials MAY be able to withstand her reality attacks.

And what's your gut tell you is most likely?

Besides, who says she needs to warp THEM out of reality. Like I said - summon a Sue attack and blow them all up.

<<Assuming Wanda is even just a mutant anymore. She seems beyond having or needing a physical form since she's all over the place.>>

seems more logical than assuming she isn't. but i STILL don't know why they couldn't just psionically wupe her mind to make her forget her powers BEFORE she even has a chance to use them . . ..

At some point, that actually could have worked. But she's since shown an irrepressable mind.

Originally posted by demigawd
Wow...that's quite a twist on facts. She won ONLY because he exausted his energy supplies, as he proceeded to explain to her, which of course freaked her out and caused her to flee. It was basically a stalemate until that point.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Had their fight comtinued without her freaking out . . . ?

Creshosk the misdirectionist 😆 watch this thread move away from the salient points demi had produced into a World of -

Where did it say that
So you saying
What I think you mean is etc 😂

🙄

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Creshosk the misdirectionist 😆 watch this thread move away from the salient points demi had produced into a World of -

Where did it say that
So you saying
What I think you mean is etc 😂

🙄

<<Part of the reason I back Scarlet Witch over the Cellestials in this thread (and over Phoenix in the other thread) is because for all their powers and feats, neither are above choice or probability, which Scarlet Witch controls.>>

and if she doesn't GET the chance to apply her powers because they psionically disable her or make her forget she even HAS powers? at best you can argue it comes down to who gets first attack unless it's been proven somewhere that wanda is immune in someway to psychic attacks. celestials have ripped info out of sue's mind and ko'd thor almost instantaneously. they also places thoughts in the minds of the skyfathers when they showed them their realms burning and destroyed.

demi has yet to say why they couldn't do the same to wanda, ill: maybe YOU can clarify?

Originally posted by Creshosk
This coming from the person who never fights his own battles and . . actually never even debates in the comic forums? 🙄

You say that like its a bad thing 🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
You say that like its a bad thing 🙂

So you admit to it then? 😕

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Creshosk the misdirectionist 😆 watch this thread move away from the salient points demi had produced into a World of -

Where did it say that
So you saying
What I think you mean is etc 😂

🙄

Not at all.

Behold:

Originally posted by Creshosk
Had their fight comtinued without her freaking out . . . ?

She would have beaten him. Simple enough.

Originally posted by demigawd
Not at all.

Behold:

She would have beaten him. Simple enough.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Part of the reason I back Scarlet Witch over the Cellestials in this thread (and over Phoenix in the other thread) is because for all their powers and feats, neither are above choice or probability, which Scarlet Witch controls.>>

and if she doesn't GET the chance to apply her powers because they psionically disable her or make her forget she even HAS powers? at best you can argue it comes down to who gets first attack unless it's been proven somewhere that wanda is immune in someway to psychic attacks. celestials have ripped info out of sue's mind and ko'd thor almost instantaneously. they also places thoughts in the minds of the skyfathers when they showed them their realms burning and destroyed.

demi has yet to say why they couldn't do the same to wanda, ill: maybe YOU can clarify?

I already addressed this point....she's shown the ability to grow beyond psychic circuitbreakers and controls placed inside of her, which is why it was effective at first, but Xavier lost complete control...AND couldn't do it again. She actually broke through the circuitbreakers FASTER than Jean did when she was Phoenix. More food for thought.

So to answer your question - it's actually a conceivable way to win. But looking at the overall options, and Wanda's evolutionary abilities, I'd say she has more options for victory than they do.

<<demi has yet to say why they couldn't do the same to wanda, ill: maybe YOU can clarify?>>

hmm, seems demi HAS replied. curious: how has she shown this irrepressible mind?

<<Just so that I'm clear - you're basing this ONLY off of the fact that Cube Beings, who are only planetary scale reality warpers, say that Celestials are more powerful, right?>>

yes. again, it seems logical enough to assume. i mean, if any old reality warper could walk up and expunge them, well . . . they wouldn't be considered among the most powerful of all beings, would they?

<<Given the Cube beings fights, it doesn't appear that they even apply reality warping technique to each other. The only named attack is some kind of sub-particle disruptor something or other. It could be that they are unable to apply reality warping directly to beings. Are there any instances of them successfully deleting ANYBODY from reality? Or any direct reality manipulation feats that directly affect a living being?>>

you're getting rather nit-picky with this, demi. they can alter reality but NOT affect living beings? hmmm . . . if you REALLY want to get nit-picky, i suppose i could accuse wanda of not ACTUALLY being able to alter reality, but rather she can reset parts of it by variously affecting the probably of things happening and not happening. could wanda say, change the silver surfer into a daisy? i would doubt it (but again i'm open to changing my mind because it bears repeating, i've not read hom and so don't fully know her abilities) because the chance of ss suddenly becoming a daisy is zero and hence impossible.

<<And what's your gut tell you is most likely?
Besides, who says she needs to warp THEM out of reality. Like I said - summon a Sue attack and blow them all up.>>

my gut says if she bumped into them in hom she probably could affect them because it would be a 'dramatic demonstration of power'. i'm not sure i'd buy it though and i would actually HOPE her power was UNABLE to affect them because i really hate all these absurd power-ups! 😄

always an interesting discussion when you're around, demi. 😉

damn, stop typing at the same time as me! 😠

😄

and i might buy she is immune to mental attacks (marvel really does cover all its bases when it comes to power-ups, doesn't it? 🙄) but it's still possible she might be affected by a being as powerful as a celestial.

as it stands, i don't know WHO the hell would win! edge to wanda, maybe. 😑

Originally posted by Creshosk
If you're going to be attacking someone on their style, you should probably expect the same in return.

So you admit to it then? 😕

Of course not - I never admit anything 🙂 M-O-O-N spells moon Cresh 🙂