Marvel Hierarchy revised as of December 2005

a little bit from knightmare, yes thier are tons of problems with a lot of charcters, but i was only listing roles, and establihed hierarchy not how they would do in a fight, i have a little bit of knowledge of the infintes from back in the day and i actually have "Thanos Vol.2 the infinty abyss" where it explained in great detail Atlez, history and function, and it actually showed Adam Warlock traveling across the Gulf of the CA, and you saw all the string of realties going down an endless path. and atlez explaining that he is the anchor for ALL realites, and he needs his replacement to show up b4 he dies , cuz his life force is whats actually holding it all together. i can scan if you like

<<Yes, but....what creation? If you're saying that it's not the PF that created sentience in the universe, and you're saying that it's not TOAA...what is the mechanism?>>

evolution, my friend . . . we have proof -- it worked in OUR universe! unless you're saying there's a pf in the real world too . . .
😄

<<But that presumes that the all-knowing....isn't all-knowing. Why are you so focused on splitting up TOAA and PF? EVERYTHING is connected to TOAA ultimately...there's no escape from that.>>

seems impossible. but of course we're not omniscient or all-powerful . . . and as for why:

"The Phoenix Force is an immortal, indestructible, and mutable manifestation of the prime universal force of life, dirived from the psyches of all living beings."

it doesn't say fashioned by toaa. it doesn't say its energy is the sum of all potential life yet unborn, though it says it can DRAW on the energy allotted for those unborn. it is rather clear. and is it less realistic to claim it came about the way i suggested v having to create an entirely new entity to fit in with what we know?

<<TOAA can divorce himself from personally designing life just by creating multi-PF ("they"😉 and giving PF its own will. And that meets your criteria of maintaining free will without the stretch of making TOAA ignorant of something.>>

then that implies we are subject to the will of the pf. taht certainly doesn't sound right either . . .

and cresh:

<<You're going to make the decisions you're going to make regardless of wether you actually make them or not. Part of the infinite realites, universes or whatever you want to call them, is that each descion forms a new one, in that new universe you made the opposite descion. Of course the way things work is the same and the way you react to things is also predetermined by who you are. You are the sum of your choices in the past, and your experiences. Even on a larger scale with other people making desicions. They like you will make the descion they were going to make regardless..>>

no. the difference is that it ISN'T you. it's a DIFFERENT you making those choices, and THAT you has the same choices as any other you. if me and another me make the same choice, that other me simply doesn't exist. in the whole contiuum of possible choices, all choices will have been made, but there is no rule that says the me in universe 1 HAS to choose (A) and the me in universe 2 HAS to choose (B). there can still be free will in a universe where all choices are eventually made.

cripes . . . what were we talking about again . . .?crazy

and manjaro, nice job of steering this wildly veering vessel back on course . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Yes, but....what creation? If you're saying that it's not the PF that created sentience in the universe, and you're saying that it's not TOAA...what is the mechanism?>>

evolution, my friend . . . we have proof -- it worked in OUR universe! unless you're saying there's a pf in the real world too . . .
😄

Nuh uh! Evolution is the process by which a lesser lifeform becomes a more evolved lifeform. it's not the process by which life itself begins, which in OUR universe is very much a mystery (or the result of a direct creation, depending upon what you believe).

<<But that presumes that the all-knowing....isn't all-knowing. Why are you so focused on splitting up TOAA and PF? EVERYTHING is connected to TOAA ultimately...there's no escape from that.>>

seems impossible. but of course we're not omniscient or all-powerful . . . and as for why:

But if you know everything and can do everything, and are in all places, then you know everything, can do everything, and are in all places. You can't choose to NOT know something if you know all, because then you don't know all. Ugh!

And don't give me that "Can God create a rock so big he can't lift it?" business, Mister! The answer is no, but that's not because of a limitation of what God can do....it's a paradox of human language. Ditto with TOAA choosing to allow himself to not know something....no!

"The Phoenix Force is an immortal, indestructible, and mutable manifestation of the prime universal force of life, dirived from the psyches of all living beings."

it doesn't say fashioned by toaa. it doesn't say its energy is the sum of all potential life yet unborn, though it says it can DRAW on the energy allotted for those unborn. it is rather clear. and is it less realistic to claim it came about the way i suggested v having to create an entirely new entity to fit in with what we know?

I didn't create an entirely new entity. And like Illa said, you can't derive from something that is made of your essence. That's why I say that the Handbook is actually referring to the sentience, rather than the power of the Phoenix Force in the Universe. Otherwise, it contradicts the concept that the Big Bang manifests the Phoenix, and contradicts the concept that the Phoenix brings about the end when a universe dies.

<<TOAA can divorce himself from personally designing life just by creating multi-PF ("they"😉 and giving PF its own will. And that meets your criteria of maintaining free will without the stretch of making TOAA ignorant of something.>>

then that implies we are subject to the will of the pf. taht certainly doesn't sound right either . . .

It doesn't imply that. the PF is the manifestation of existence in a universe. What happens from there, PF has no hand in.

Originally posted by manjaro
a little bit from knightmare, yes thier are tons of problems with a lot of charcters, but i was only listing roles, and establihed hierarchy not how they would do in a fight, i have a little bit of knowledge of the infintes from back in the day and i actually have "Thanos Vol.2 the infinty abyss" where it explained in great detail Atlez, history and function, and it actually showed Adam Warlock traveling across the Gulf of the CA, and you saw all the string of realties going down an endless path. and atlez explaining that he is the anchor for ALL realites, and he needs his replacement to show up b4 he dies , cuz his life force is whats actually holding it all together. i can scan if you like

Yeah, I'm really interested in finding out more about Atlez, since there seems to be conflicting information on him.

And if he's a multiversal being....how can he die? And where are they finding his replacement? That seems to imply that he's a regular lifeform that's been removed from a universe and given the role, similar to Roma.

I'm doing some more research, and apparently each reality has someone who serves as an anchor. The anchor is always from that reality - and the successor to Atlez is a girl from Earth, Atleza.

UPDATE - some other information - the Thanosi were acting under orders of Oblivion, which, as we know from the Infinity Crusade, is a universal concept, to kill Atlez to bring about the end of the universe.

Both of these strongly suggest a universal scope.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<You're going to make the decisions you're going to make regardless of wether you actually make them or not. Part of the infinite realites, universes or whatever you want to call them, is that each descion forms a new one, in that new universe you made the opposite descion. Of course the way things work is the same and the way you react to things is also predetermined by who you are. You are the sum of your choices in the past, and your experiences. Even on a larger scale with other people making desicions. They like you will make the descion they were going to make regardless..>>

no. the difference is that it ISN'T you. it's a DIFFERENT you making those choices, and THAT you has the same choices as any other you. if me and another me make the same choice, that other me simply doesn't exist. in the whole contiuum of possible choices, all choices will have been made, but there is no rule that says the me in universe 1 HAS to choose (A) and the me in universe 2 HAS to choose (B). there can still be free will in a universe where all choices are eventually made.

cripes . . . what were we talking about again . . .?crazy

If not then it was predetermined and everything was the same up until the point where it was destined to be different or divergent from your reality, in which case it could have had a big bang of its own. In which case there were an infinite number of big bangs. And you might even see a slow grade between Marvel and DC potentially an infinit different ways?

haha....Cresh, my boy, you just opened up a BIG can of worms! We need, like, a "smart person thread" just for topics like this....

...but I definitely see what you're trying to say, and it's something I'd considered before too, but ran out of aspirin, so I stopped.

It basically comes down to this - if the universe is linear, and alternate choices exist only in alternate universes, then we, being of a single dimension, only have one choice to make. And if there's only one choice....is it a really choice?

Or - do we create infinite young universes with our alternate choices? And if that's the case, there's STILL a question of free will - if I am an alternate reality version of another me who has made a different choice, doesn't that mean that I was FORCED to make a choice other than that of Me Prime?And if so, doesn't that mean I exist solely as a contingency?

Worse yet - let's bring back in the concepts of divine punishment/reward. If, upon death, I'm rewarded or punished for my behavior in life, that means in some realities, I go to Heaven, and in others, I go to Hell. But that means there MUST be versions of everybody who exist in Hell...it means we ALL suffer, or some versions of us do. There's a reality where I'm a pious muslim. What if I'm an alternate reality of that pious muslim Demigawd where I didn't become a pious muslim? I CAN'T be a pious muslim if it's all that separates me from Pious Muslim Demigawd - because the universes diverged there. Does that mean that by the very nature of my existence, the fact that I'm an offshoot universe from the time Demigawd chose to become a pious muslim, that I was created by that same Demigawd for the sole purpose of going to Hell in lieu of him? By choosing to become a pious muslim, he forced me to not become one, and if there's an Allah, I'm now subject to punishment because of Pious Muslim Demigawd's choice to become a pious muslim. Is that fair? Where was MY choice?

Originally posted by demigawd
Yeah, I'm really interested in finding out more about Atlez, since there seems to be conflicting information on him.

And if he's a multiversal being....how can he die? And where are they finding his replacement? .

becuz he exists in a realm that is outside of time and space, and the task of anchoring reality is so taxing that thier lifeforces burn out in a few thousand years, so they have to pass the torch to sombody else. Atleza is just one of many beings from different worlds, it so happens that she happens to be from Earth, so everytime around someone is destined to pick up the mantle, and it is destined that thier names will be a variant of Atlas[you know the titan Zeus made hold the Earth on his shoulders]

Originally posted by demigawd
Worse yet - let's bring back in the concepts of divine punishment/reward. If, upon death, I'm rewarded or punished for my behavior in life, that means in some realities, I go to Heaven, and in others, I go to Hell. But that means there MUST be versions of everybody who exist in Hell...it means we ALL suffer, or some versions of us do. There's a reality where I'm a pious muslim. What if I'm an alternate reality of that pious muslim Demigawd where I didn't become a pious muslim? I CAN'T be a pious muslim if it's all that separates me from Pious Muslim Demigawd - because the universes diverged there. Does that mean that by the very nature of my existence, the fact that I'm an offshoot universe from the time Demigawd chose to become a pious muslim, that I was created by that same Demigawd for the sole purpose of going to Hell in lieu of him? By choosing to become a pious muslim, he forced me to not become one, and if there's an Allah, I'm now subject to punishment because of Pious Muslim Demigawd's choice to become a pious muslim. Is that fair? Where was MY choice?

So would hevean and hell be merely a universal concept? Or is there only one with an infinite amout of space where you'd be seperated out?

But what about realities that crossed over so you have that possibility of encountering yourself?

Why don't I get headaches when thinking about this stuff? I grasp these concepts quite easily. 🤨

Originally posted by demigawd
Where was MY choice?

This is easily the best thread going right now.

And I'm also starting to hate the word "dirived".

Originally posted by leonidas
it doesn't say fashioned by toaa. it doesn't say its energy is the sum of all potential life yet unborn, though it says it can DRAW on the energy allotted for those unborn. it is rather clear. and is it less realistic to claim it came about the way i suggested v having to create an entirely new entity to fit in with what we know?

Written or unwritten, all things Marvel originate with the TOAA, leo. You're still hung up on one word. Phoenix is dirived from life and life is dirived from it. They're one and the same. All things that live have Phoenix in them, and all things that potentially will live have Phoenix in them. Everything that lives or will live is dirived from the same energy source, which also happens to be called the Phoenix Force. Life can't live without energy, and Phoenix can't fulfill it's purpose without the living, meaning both need eachother. Without life, there's no need for a Phoenix Force. The possibility for life necessitates an energy source to fuel it, and the energy source designated to do so is Phoenix (GS must have really pissed you off if you can't see that. lol).

Without the possibility of life being realized, the Phoenix Force is just a quantum variable not implemented. (Please don't make me repeat thay again, man, my ears are starting to bleed. lol).

I can't see how you can think life can predate the energy that fuels it. What would fuel life other than the fuel of life?

As for the quantum variants of self, it is a lot to get your mind around, but it's a good excercise for the brain to do things like that.

Personally, I don't believe we have "free will" because every action we could possibly make already has a pre-determined outcome.

From our perspective it seems like we have choice, but in the grand scheme of things, it's just another sum of pre-determined factors coming together and making a possibility realized.

The flipside to this, however, is that there are infinite pre-determined outcomes, and there is always the possibility for another variable to effect your equation and lead you to a different final solution, so from our perspective, we could consciously try to find the set of predefined variables that leads to the most promising possibility becoming a realization.

Other than that, we're just going through the motions.

<<But if you know everything and can do everything, and are in all places, then you know everything, can do everything, and are in all places. You can't choose to NOT know something if you know all, because then you don't know all. Ugh!

And don't give me that "Can God create a rock so big he can't lift it?" business, Mister! The answer is no, but that's not because of a limitation of what God can do....it's a paradox of human language. Ditto with TOAA choosing to allow himself to not know something....no!>>

😆 😆

so in saying that, you're admitting that an all-powerful, omniscient entity CAN'T do something?

<<And like Illa said, you can't derive from something that is made of your essence.>>

but WE'RE not deriving it. it simply derived. and besides that . . . 😑 things in comics have been derived form essences many times . . .

and i've never heard of this atlez, either. sounds interesting.

<<and the successor to Atlez is a girl from Earth, Atleza.>>

wowo! what a conincidence that her name sounds almost like his!!
😂

<<Written or unwritten, all things Marvel originate with the TOAA, leo. You're still hung up on one word. Phoenix is dirived from life and life is dirived from it.>>

but in my explanation everything IS derived from toaa. he started and is responsible for everything!! the multiverse was started by his spark and everything stems from him.

<<All things that live have Phoenix in them, and all things that potentially will live have Phoenix in them. Everything that lives or will live is dirived from the same energy source, which also happens to be called the Phoenix Force.>>

you keep reiterating that but like demi's multi-pf it is no where to be seen in the bio. and it is the bio i am playing devil's advocate to. can't for the life of me say why anymore. must be something easier i can be doing like hunting down a cure for cancer or solving all the problems in the middle east . . .

<<I can't see how you can think life can predate the energy that fuels it. What would fuel life other than the fuel of life?>>

nor can i still see exactly why you insist on saying pf is the fuel of life when that has never been stated anywhere to be true, nor do i understand why you insist there even MUST be a fuel. as for what would fule it? toaa's initial kick start. as for how life evolved -- at it's heart that is still a mystery, but unless demi is claiming god DID create life, or that we have a pf in OUR universe, it evolved somehow via chemical interactions. in any event, naturally. don't see why it couldn't do the same in marvel. that gets rid of the toaa connection which is never mentioned, satisfies the bio of the pf (derived from life -- derived IS important because it is the defining word in its origin) and demi can even squeeze his theory into it.

and cresh, cresh, cresh, cresh . . . ❌

Shouldn't the idea of alternate universes and free will include that in many universes (and I would hazard to say most) an individual and their counterpart do indeed make the same choices?

Could these alternate universe counterparts really only embody different aspects of an individual? That is demi's choice in one universe to be a pious Muslim, and demi's choice in another universe to not be a pious Muslim not only reflect simple choices, but different aspects of demi's personality as well? This allows for free will to reflect the complexity of the psyche as well as simple choices and actions.

I wonder if individuals and their multiversal counterparts are merely "shards" of themselves, and that they form a whole in the White Hot Room, considereing that it's in a sense the crux of the concept of life.

Are people making a distinction between being and living? What is this distinction? Is TOAA alive? I ask because the first sentence of the history of the PF says:

Born of the void between states of being

This either implies that the PF can/does/did exist before, outside of, and independent of life, or that it draws on the psyche of TOAA as well as the beings that it creates, doesn't it? Can one of our resident physics experts explain?

<<Shouldn't the idea of alternate universes and free will include that in many universes (and I would hazard to say most) an individual and their counterpart do indeed make the same choices?>>

that's what i tried saying earlier. good luck with that! heheh

<<Born of the void between states of being

This either implies that the PF can/does/did exist before, outside of, and independent of life, or that it draws on the psyche of TOAA as well as the beings that it creates, doesn't it? Can one of our resident physics experts explain?>>

i've been puzzling over that line, unsure how it fits in anywhere. personally, i think it is some writer talking out of his arse trying to make things sound cool. what states of being? living and non-living? being and not being? i'd guess the former. fits my ideas better. strikes me that seeing it this way is almost like seeing the pf as a ghost that was just waiting (a possibilty? a potential?) until life began from which it derived power to truly exist. rather than 'spontaneously' appearing from psyches, it (in a primitive, NON-pf form) was just waiting for something to attach itself to. i actually kinda like that description and it seems to sort of bridge the ideas that have been expressed. maybe.
😄

still, it was probably some writer talking out of his arse . . .

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Shouldn't the idea of alternate universes and free will include that in many universes (and I would hazard to say most) an individual and their counterpart do indeed make the same choices?

But that still doesn't answer the question on weather or not free will truly exists or if you make choices based on the very nature of your being.

You will make the choices you are going to make based on who you are regardless of anything else, wouldn't you?

Originally posted by leonidas
still, it was probably some writer talking out of his arse . . .

Originally posted by demigawd
And don't give me that "Can God create a rock so big he can't lift it?" business, Mister! The answer is no, but that's not because of a limitation of what God can do....it's a paradox of human language.

In order to lift something you have to move something away from something else. So imagine creating a rock larger than everything else in existence. Now since this rock is so large and it'd probably destroy everything else that is based on its gravity, there is nothing to lift it off of, the most he can hope for is a headstand. Now create a nother rock larger than this first rock. now the first rock can be lifted off of the second rock, fulfilling both sides of the conditional. A rock too big to lift and lifting that very same rock.

*bows*

<<So because it looks bad in your theory it must just be bad writing? Wouldn't that make the rest of the entry invalid as well? making this entire conversation moot?>>

😑

yes?
no?
and yes of course because the whole conversation IS moot. unless you count as meaningful a thought exercise that will likely never be verified in any comic and has no extrinsic value to anyone but us geeks with nothing better to do. and the reason we're trying to piece the whole thing together in the first place is BECAUSE the writers did such a miserable job in the first place.

in any event, i sorta like this void idea the more i think about it. could it be this same void that somehow gave rise to the abstracts?

Originally posted by leonidas
<<So because it looks bad in your theory it must just be bad writing? Wouldn't that make the rest of the entry invalid as well? making this entire conversation moot?>>

😑

yes?
no?
and yes of course because the whole conversation IS moot. unless you count as meaningful a thought exercise that will likely never be verified in any comic and has no extrinsic value to anyone but us geeks with nothing better to do. and the reason we're trying to piece the whole thing together in the first place is BECAUSE the writers did such a miserable job in the first place.

in any event, i sorta like this void idea the more i think about it. could it be this same void that somehow gave rise to the abstracts?

Wow....I don't know where to begin....

Originally posted by Creshosk
Also is it the same multi-/omni- versal hell or is there one for each person, as each person's hell might be different, and then if each person has their own hell, does each version of you that went to hellhave a different hell? So that would mean that there was an infinit number of hells for you,and so for each person there is an infinite number of hells, does the same apply to heaven though? since it would be harder to get into heaven than it is to hell wouldn't there still be an infinite number of heavens so that you don't encounter yourselves?

So would hevean and hell be merely a universal concept? Or is there only one with an infinite amout of space where you'd be seperated out?

But what about realities that crossed over so you have that possibility of encountering yourself?

Why don't I get headaches when thinking about this stuff? I grasp these concepts quite easily. 🤨

Heaven and Hell are actually universal concepts in Marvel - places like Hell, Hel, Valhalla, Mephisto's realm, etc. - they're all within a single universe, if not a single dimension.

And you're not fooling anybody, Cresh...I saw you buying advil this morning.