Marvel Hierarchy revised as of December 2005

just my 2 cents

as was said before, teh key word is "derived". gas is derived from oil. gas is exceptioanlly important, but oil has greater importance, cause morethings come from oil other than gas. many things can be done with oil w/o making gas. gas is can be a "byproduct" (i use the word loosely) and though important is not the end all be all.
if LT is the multiversal protector, he protects more than just life which the phoenix is derived from. in essence, he should also be protecting the phoenix. its like the LT is a bodyguard of a wealthy man and woman (the multiverse) and their kids (the separate universes) and the family pets/valuables (life, death, order, chaos) and things derived from them.

so the phoenix force for me may not even be in the top 3 ppl because its existence depends on something lower down on the multiversal cosmic ladder

God (all) >
Multiverse (LT is its protector) >
Universe (embodiements of eternity) >
Facets of the Universe (life/death, abstract concepts like entropy etc, primordial forces (Death, Celestials, Abstracts, etc) >
Derivations of the Facets (Phoenix, In-Betweener etc)

HOTU and IG are excluded cause they are inanimate objects and their power is subject to who has them.

phoenix ranks so low for me because life CAN exist with out it. not the other way around. phoenixes powers are derived from life to do whatever it needs to do. its grandiose tasks taht it needs to accomplish are subject to something very low on the cosmic hierarchies order.

phoenix although nigh limitless in power only has to do with life. and life is not the end all be all.

PS i dont even think the LT and eternity etc are actually alive. they are soulness automatons left to do a job, similar to a piece of factory equipment making bottles etc. the factory operator being TOAA doing a job to suit his own needs (clients (everything else in the universe)) i personally believe the "living" in living tribunal is a misnomer.

not sure where the beyonders fit in because i have not followed them

Originally posted by Creshosk
Hence the need for LT.

No free will, no need for a protector.

Very true!

The thing is, we know that the Phoenix is there at the time of the Big Bang....before there's life in the universe. If the Phoenix relied on living things, it couldn't exist at the beginning of the universe, but we KNOW it does. If Phoenix relied on living things, it also couldn't exist at the end of the universe, but we KNOW it does, because Phoenix's very role is to bring about the beginning and the end. In both cases, life doesn't exist.

In constrast - there has been no instance of life existing and there being no Phoenix Force.

if the phoenixe role is to cause the big bang, that means the damn thing is only important for one thing in the universe as it exists for its 20 billion year life time?

ill be damned if im paying my taxes for that.

lol, no its role goes beyond that. It plays a role in promoting the continuing cycle of life within the universe and its avatars are guardians of existence.

Originally posted by demigawd
lol, no its role goes beyond that. It plays a role in promoting the continuing cycle of life within the universe and its avatars are guardians of existence.

lol, yea i know. anyways...my serious response is stated above.

<<phoenix ranks so low for me because life CAN exist with out it. not the other way around. >>

yep. 😄 and good post solidus.

<<The thing is, we know that the Phoenix is there at the time of the Big Bang....>>

at each UNIVERSAL big bang. no evidence to say it was at the FIRST beg bang. hence our different views. you can fit your theory in just fine even using my assumption that pf came from the first living beings.

hmm, we don't seem to agree on much often, do we . . .?

oh well. keeps things interesting. 😉

Originally posted by leonidas
<<phoenix ranks so low for me because life CAN exist with out it. not the other way around. >>

yep. 😄 and good post solidus.

But I already said that there have been instances of Phoenix without life, but none of life without Phoenix! What he's saying and what you're saying cannot be the case!

<<The thing is, we know that the Phoenix is there at the time of the Big Bang....>>

at each UNIVERSAL big bang. no evidence to say it was at the FIRST beg bang. hence our different views. you can fit your theory in just fine even using my assumption that pf came from the first living beings.

But it defies logic to suggest that the Phoenix would be present at EVERY SINGLE BIG BANG but the first. It's far more sensible to suggest that all universes were created the same way - since they all have the same basic structure. We don't know anything about universe 1, but we know from the countless number of other universes that the Big Bang kicked off the Phoenix Force - why would we assume some entirely different creation method for the first universe when it's more consistent to assume that it was created just like the other impossibillion incredidillion universes? Is it just for the sake of wanting TOAA to see life as an "accident" instead of a design?

Another bit of evidence that refutes what you're saying is the fact that each Phoenix seems to only be aware of what happens in his/her own universe. For information outside of the universe, they have to again rely on "they", coming from the White Hot Room. if the individual Phoenix consciousness comes from Universe 1 and expands throughout the multiverse, then this wouldn't be the case.

hmm, we don't seem to agree on much often, do we . . .?

Aunt May vs. Hulk who takes it?

(This is probably the best convo I've had on here since before Whirly went crazy and we had the Superman Vs. Iceman thread.)

Leo, you said yourself:

[quote]because it draws on POTENTIAL life from the future[quote]

There was and always will be a potential for life because it's a possibility, and TOAA gave rise to all possibility by instating the concept of existence through his will. The potential for all things is by design. TOAA's will is all encompassing and covers all possibility. If there is a possibility for life, it's going to need energy to sustain it, and the energy source that will sustain any possible life is the Phoenix Force. The course that each individual living being takes within the span of existence, from a picosecond to the next, is random, because at each moment there are countless possible contingent outcomes for the next moment, which is a part of causality.

The overall grand scheme of creation is by design, and balanced:

The chaos of free will within the order and confines of creation's design.

Basically, TOAA gave all the tools and necessities for any possibility to occur, and allowed his creation to do with them what it will within the confines of the design.

Existence is an equation with a defined, absolute sum, and TOAA purposely created the possibility for all potential variables, and their contingencies, that regardless of how they are implemented, still balance and will equate to that pre-determined, absolute outcome.

And yes, we are getting into the very deep end of this pool.

I bet the guys at Marvel who wrote the handbook entry thought they were clearing up all the confusion.🙂

<<But it defies logic to suggest that the Phoenix would be present at EVERY SINGLE BIG BANG but the first. >>

no more than it's like saying once the match is dropped in the forest to start the fire i no longer need matches to keep it burning. toaa dropped the match. then walked away.

<<But I already said that there have been instances of Phoenix without life, but none of life without Phoenix!>>

only in later universes, demi. never in the 'first' universe.

<<There was and always will be a potential for life because it's a possibility, and TOAA gave rise to all possibility by instating the concept of existence through his will.>>

ah, yes . . . but, conversely, there was then a possibilty life would NOT exist because that too is a 'possibility'. 😄 so if there existed a possibility for NO LIFE to exist, then in what state was the pf? (oohhhhh, that gives me a headache!) another reason to say pf came from the first living beings in the first universe.

Originally posted by leonidas

ah, yes . . . but, conversely, there was then a possibilty life would NOT exist because that too is a 'possibility'. so if there existed a possibility for NO LIFE to exist, then in what state was the pf? (oohhhhh, that gives me a headache!) another reason to say pf came from the first living beings in the first universe.

Yes, there was a possibility for life and there's a possibility for no life.

Phoenix is a contingency on the possibility that things will live, and if things are to live, they will need an energy source.

If nothing lives, then of course there would be no need for an energy source to fuel the living.

In the quantum divergent where no life was created (at the point of the "pre-creation hesitation" void), the Phoenix Force is a possibility not yet realized.

Basically, a possible course of action not taken.

(And this point goes back to my other contention in the Scarlet Witch Vs. Phoenix (Jean) thread where I stated that the Phoenix Force was still subject to causality because TOAA did not have to create life, but chose to, and why Scarlet Witch would kick Jean's ass. The concept of causality permeates the multiverse all the way back to the origin, TOAA.)

All things in creation are given to a possibility and a choice, and therefore fall under causality. It all originates with one possibility realized that spawns all future contingencies.

Basically, TOAA asked himself "What if...?", and every possibility that could be classified as an "if" was realized.

so you're saying it should be renamed SCHRODINGER'S force, perhaps? 😉

that seems like a lot to allow. so now it wasn't born with the first big bang, it had the POTENTIAL (starting to hate that word of late . . .) to BE born. but, when would that potential have been realized . . .?

when the first living beings were born in that first universe! 😱

i win!

clap

btw, i think we scared everyone else off . . . 😮

Originally posted by leonidas
so you're saying it should be renamed SCHRODINGER'S force, perhaps? 😉

that seems like a lot to allow. so now it wasn't born with the first big bang, it had the POTENTIAL (starting to hate that word of late . . .) to BE born. but, when would that potential have been realized . . .?

when the first living beings were born in that first universe! 😱

i win!

clap

😆

Not exactly, leo. It still predates life (unborn). It's derived from both the living and those yet to live. Don't make me say it again, that other post almost caused me a seizure. lol

Life is drawn from it, and it is drawn from life.

They're one and the same.

The Phoenix Force is predicated on the necessity to fuel all potential life.

When the possibility of something becoming alive was realized, the pre-requisite energy necessary to allow that occurance to come to fruition was already allotted and accounted for in the design of creation.

The first beings needed energy, and that energy was Phoenix.

Life's fuel is the Phoenix Force.

Just like in DC, though the name for it there is "The Source".

GS has really engendered some deep resentment of the Phoenix Force. 😆

I personally just hate Jean Grey. 😄

And Wolverine.

And Cyclops.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<But it defies logic to suggest that the Phoenix would be present at EVERY SINGLE BIG BANG but the first. >>

no more than it's like saying once the match is dropped in the forest to start the fire i no longer need matches to keep it burning. toaa dropped the match. then walked away.

But now you're ignoring Phoenix's history by saying that. PF has been defined as the Big Bang, the "spark of creation", it's said "the stars are my children", it's been said to bring about the end of the universe (where there is an absence of life). Are you saying that this applies to every universe but the first one, which is perpetually alive? Why assume that when no mention is ever made of the first universe or of any unusual properties that the first universe has? Why even assume there IS a first universe - the multiverse isn't necessarily sequential. I know you want to make the line about the Phoenix deriving from the consciousness of the living stick literally, but you're cutting your nose off to spite your face. There's just too much evidence against your contention that TOAA directly created universe 1, then the PF magically appeared as soon as the first life force appeared, then the white hot room that is outside of the multiverse appeared because of life in universe 1, and that all subsequent universes had a big bang that created a Phoenix prior to there being life.

<<But I already said that there have been instances of Phoenix without life, but none of life without Phoenix!>>

only in later universes, demi. never in the 'first' universe.

You've mentioned this "first universe" theory over the past couple of posts. Where did this come from, given that there's never been a mention of the first universe? There's not even enough information to come up with a circumstantial evidencial theory on something different happening on the first universe. There's not even enough evidence to even assume that there WAS a first universe, rather than multiple universes popping up simultaneously and rapidly occupying the multiverse. Why assume anything about a "first" universe, when everything fits fine just by going with conventional logic...that all the universes have the same basic structure and Big Bang origin?

Does being derived from the psyches of all living beings include TOAA? I would think that is has to, considering that if PF=Big Bang, how would one explain its existence in a universe devoid of life? It certainly can't be derived at that point solely from what doesn't exist, can it? Surely there are some universes where life never exists--does PF not exist there either, even though it is responsible for the creation of that universe? Or are we considering stars to be living? Are we including abstracts in this as well?

I suppose I'd like to see a definition of what all living beings really means...

This must have been what the debate at Nicaea was like: "Now does the Holy Ghost proceed from the Father and the Son, or from the Father through the Son?"

I wonder what the dudes back at Marvel HQ think about us.......

the Phoenix Force was always there and predates the bigbang. TOAA prolly created this sentinel along with the first big bang. why? because it emanates from potential life. in the beginning God created teh heavens and teh earth and the earth was without form etc etc. from that moment, potential life existed and so did the phoenix. and the phoenix draws energy from a quasirealistic force, potential life over countless universes. so as long as life ONE the universe is one degree abovve impossible phoenix will exist. with an infinite number of universes, the phoenix then gets unlimited power (small number (potential for life) * infinity = infinity)

when a universe winds down (time has moved on (re: steven king's dark tower series)) the phoenix destroys a universe to ensure life restarts so that it has a continued infinite power source because in all the universes (every twenty billion years, all life winds down) and if all life wound down phoenix would dissappear. so it has to continue its cycle.

UNLESS potential life extends into non existent universes as well. but i dont think so.

but life is only one aspect of teh universe. so i must believe that the phoenix force is a selfish entity to end it all just because one aspect of the universe dies. (unless taht is, life is teh most important aspect of the universe)

<<You've mentioned this "first universe" theory over the past couple of posts. Where did this come from, given that there's never been a mention of the first universe? There's not even enough information to come up with a circumstantial evidencial theory on something different happening on the first universe.>>

when you imply that toaa started things, if it started in the first place there must have been a beginning. each universe has a big bang, why not the multiverse?

<<I know you want to make the line about the Phoenix deriving from the consciousness of the living stick literally, but you're cutting your nose off to spite your face. There's just too much evidence against your contention that TOAA directly created universe 1,>>

hmm, i don't know. why create pf to do the job rather than accept he just did it himself? let's say you are correct for a moment. that implies that pf was created before the multiverse in the 'void/nothingness' that existed before the multiverse came into being. in order to actually spark the start of the multiverse pf must have already existed prior to the multiverse, no? to say it came into being simulataneously is analagous to saying toaa sparked it and that pf was simply toaa's power of creation. he created pf before that first multiversal spark, or it was toaa's power that sparked the multiverse perhaps in the form of the pf. problem with saying pf was created before the multiverse is that before the multiverse there WAS no possibility for life, no potential for life. potential didn't start until the multiverse came into being.

<<Don't make me say it again, that other post almost caused me a seizure. lol>>

i know the feeling . . . 😄

<<When the possibility of something becoming alive was realized, the pre-requisite energy necessary to allow that occurance to come to fruition was already allotted and accounted for in the design of creation.

The first beings needed energy, and that energy was Phoenix.>>

once again, then, did pf exist before the multiverse and before the concepts of causality and potential? but how could it have when there WAS no potential until the multiverse came into being?

<<GS has really engendered some deep resentment of the Phoenix Force.
I personally just hate Jean Grey.
And Wolverine.
And Cyclops.>>

hahahahah! something we agree on at last!!!! i've actually always hated most 'all-powerful' entities (which is what i thought phoenix was when it was first intro'd so long ago.) i've also never been an x-fan though i have huge runs of most x-books. i bought them more for the anticipated value of them than because i actually liked them.

oh, and i think demi and i are both in agreement on the fact that aunt may would tear the hulk a new one. after all, all those years hanging out with an irradiated peter must have cause HAVOC with her dna and it seems only logical to assume a mutant gene of some sort took up residence in her body. in a multiverse of unltd possibility, that gene would have grown in at least one universe into her ability to alter reality on a franklin-esque scale and obviously hulk would be less than nothing to her. unless she chose to fight him h2h ala onslaught . . . 😛

you DO concur with our assessment, don't you ill?

😄